How to sell liberal Christianity?

[dmallind]

I just opened a thread about a brave pastor who voted for equality and lost most of his congregation. This got me thinking about Bell and Pearson who lost much more high profile gigs for preaching a hell-free doctrine.

I've certainly not been loath to point out this as evidence that corroborates polls showing that most religiously active people favor less loving and tolerant morality than that claimed by liberal believers for their faith. I still think that's true but it's NOT my point here. What I want to ask is is there a way to duplicate the success people like Pearson HAD but with a liberal message.

Even in my own certainly negative view of Christian support for gay rights and universal salvation and liberal socio-economic priorities I've never seen anything that suggests less than, say, a third of them aren't pretty much sold on the liberal view.

A third of Christians in the US is about 85 million people. 85 million liberal Christians (see I can admit they exist!)

Is there a Hagee or a Warren or a Falwell or a Robertson or a Dobson for these people? Why not? You can't tell me that all the charisma and presence and communication talent is in the bad 2/3. You can't tell me, especially with the demographics of denominations, that there isn't enough money in those 85 million wallets to fund the radio stations and TV stations and private Bible schools and efficient outreach programs that the fundies have.

Again this is not a taunt or whine. I've said many times and will again that liberal believers should get more vocal and I still think so but the question I have now is why they haven't not from a normative POV but from a theological and marketing POV.

It's a good message. Even I as a nonbeliever accept that. No hell should sell. Everybody says God is love - why shouldn't that message, applied to all, in this life and the next, resonate well enough to get congregations in the thousands and broadcast in the megawatts? It's simple, it's positive, there are plenty of bits in the Bible that support it just like Hagee et al can pick theirs. There are tens of millions of liberal Christians out there even to my jaundiced eye. They should be sold easily on absolute equality before God, on salvation for all in Heaven and love for all on Earth. Why are the people trying to sell it to them sticking to half empty pews in tiny churches? Why doesn't this sell? Were I a believer I'd like to think I could promote it better than I see being done. Hell if I had the time and the inclination I think I could build a pretty good megachurch faking that I believed it. Amongst those 85 million there are doubtless far better than I. Some must, purely by odds, be trying; be going for more than a couple dozen congregants; looking enviously at Bob Jones and Trinity Broadcasting.

Why aren't they getting there?

[cbayer]

1. Several reasons

They don't get a lot of mainstream media play - not controversial or sexy enough.

There are lots of them and stories about them get posted here frequently, but they are often ignored or dismissed.

Even those who are devoting their lives to doing what you say are shouted down, harassed and attacked on sites presumably full of like minded, liberal/progressive people.

Why do you think it is?

[xchrom]

3. As a curch going, 'all are welcome at god's table'

Episcopalian - I have to agree with your remarks.

I would also say we don't do enough to 'pick up' who drift away from the evangelicals.

We could and can do better.

[cbayer]

4. With all the data available about millenials (and others) leaving the

churches of their childhood, I tend to think that there will be many looking for new places.

The mainline and more progressive churches are, hopefully, looking for ways to reach them.

There is also significant religious participation in some of the OWS groups, which is a good thing, imo.

[dmallind]

7. I honestly don't know

There are enough liberal Christians out there that it should work. DU is about as unrepresentative of the religious makeup of the US as it's possible to be. We don't represent Democrats or even liberals accurately either, as polls on support for Obama show.

The fundies have and continue to deal with far more "harassing" and "attacking" in the real world than occurs here in even the most aggrieved believer's wildest imagination. They go from strength to strength.

Even I think the liberal Christian market is about half the size of the fundy market. If I'm going to err, it's on the low side. I don't think a handful of snarky atheists on a couple of obscure liberal forums should be much of a handicap to their success.

I just don't know. The message should sell. The talent has to be there. The celebrity fundies built big megachurches before the media knew who they were. My best GUESS is that there is some dynamic that makes universalist egalitarians more fragmentary and less cohesive as a group - their very universalism may prevent the fervor to stick together perhaps.

[cbayer]

26. I don't think snarky atheists who hide out in the obscurity of a small group on an internet site

have anything to do with this at all. Nothing to do with it at all.

I was just pointing out that if leaders get shot down in milieus one might expect to be friendly, you can imagine what it might be like in the real world where one might have actual, substantive opposition.

Liberal/progressive christians have never been much into "celebrity" religion. But they are there and they work tirelessly. I am not surprised that you don't see them or, apparently, the many stories that are posted about them here.

BTW, nice new mocking avatar. Way to build alliances and get people to see your side.

[trotsky]

29. I have been told, in this forum, that Christianity was necessary for the Civil Rights movement.

Is that a good way to build alliances and get people to see your side?

[dmallind]

37. Obviously your bar for what is considered mockery

is lower than those whose opinions on the subject matter to me whatsoever.

I'm an atheist. I don't need to imagine what it's like to be "shot down" in the real world, and no American Christian of any stripe will ever experience anything close to it here.

[cbayer]

38. Really? No American Christian will ever experience anything close to what you have?

Not the black ones? Gay ones? Schizophrenic ones? Physically disabled ones? Alcoholic ones? Impoverished ones?

Really?

I guess if it makes you feel superior to mock those that you feel have more privilege than you, go for it. But don't expect anyone to come rushing to your defense when you are being "shot down".

[laconicsax]

41. Are you denying that Christian privilege exists?

[trotsky]

42. I'd like to take a moment to highlight what was just displayed here.

You said:
But don't expect anyone to come rushing to your defense when you are being "shot down"

Compare and contrast with:

‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

In other words, you are saying that Christians are free to disregard and/or disobey the words of their savior if they feel they've been disrespected.

Honestly, cbayer, is it any fucking surprise whatsoever that some of us don't have a favorable opinion of Christianity when we see shit like this all the time?

Pathetic.

[msongs]

2. because fear based religion sells better to people who are afraid of....

hell/gays/other races/other ethnicities/other income levels/other belief systems/losing status etc

[cbayer]

6. But love/social justice based religions sell well to liberal/progressive people.

And there are lots of both, we just don't hear that much about them.

[NRaleighLiberal]

5. we've left the physical church and find what we need on our deck watching birds, or kayaking

or any other places where there is peace and beauty and space to think.

[turtlerescue1]

8. Perhaps it a choice of what matters,

fund a media aspect or send the money to Somalia where folks seem in need. Handing out Bibles is fine, but how do they fill an empty belly or bandage a wound? Sometimes the best we can do is collect labels to help a Stateside concern. Our local food pantry, learned two weeks ago that it is going to cut back on use to twice a month, Sunday it was decided our Board would look into donating $400-$500, and to try to keep the item in the budget consistently. Some of us are still reeling, when the TeaPartyers...in less than a year's time food pantry use/need tripled. TRIPLED, still makes me dizzy.

Our Pastor works two jobs, Sunday and also a chaplain for a local hospice unit. Her husband also a minister, we get two for one wage, also teaches at a local college, is involved with community groups,AlaNon, etc. Plus their son is in college working on his degree.

My pastor in another State, had it a little easier, still his days were full. I know in SecondHarvest we averaged at least sixty a week, mostly families, and mostly one parent families or GAP(grandparents as parents). True it was cost by pound, and reduced to that of retail, but that's a lot of families each week. I know he attended every community meeting, because I attended them also-sadly we used to sit next to each other and made more than a few cynical sarcastic jokes and observations. He also seemed to have an endless less of hospital visits-darn people getting sick. STILL Mondays he was a Dad and a husband, no one felt angry about it.

Its the wrong group to put charismatic folks on a stage in front of a microphone to be televised. Its not the focus to tell someone what to think, what to believe nor how to live.
We seem to call it respect, because we sure don't want someone to make us their puppet either. For sure I've a couple Evangelical friends who gladly lecture me on Obama, on right to life and sexual orientations-the only reply I can make is to beware of false teachers, and remind them "let you who is without sin, cast that first stone."

Finally I'll use the word Bible. Seven levels to literary works, story-symbolic-metaphoric-and finally to Spiritually Linguistic. You use your own mind, your own understanding, not mine, not Hagee's, not Creflo Dollars, not even Joyce Meyer. Most of the characters used for a purpose seemed to always be flawed, the cracked vase that drips water along a path.

Now I'm giving you a great target to attack here, dunno perhaps there is this urge to be a martyr??? Still its my mind, my soul and my choice to believe. The person I choose to follow happened to attempt to teach to love each other, in fact the challenge was to love your enemies, used the term even the pagans love those who love them. No, the idea is NOT to heap coals on their heads, its to take a step back from Id/Ego and see commonunity we all share.

yep, made quite a target. But doubt you'll find a liberal Christian with the agenda of having a media ministry.

[dmallind]

23. Both agree and disagree with this

On the disagreement side all data available shows conservatives donate and volunteer at at least equal rates to liberals, even excluding church donations. Certainly judging by the denominations that take root in the third world, and their own theological views, more conservative Christians are actually there active in nurturing new believers. It would be nice to say all the liberal believers are giving alms not tithes and vice versa but it's just not the case on the whole.

On the agreement side, I think there is something in the non-charismatic (theologically speaking) non-authoritative nature of liberal Christian preaching that might be an obstacle to achieving critical ermmm...mass as a congregation. If the pastor is simply a more skilled coach not a unifying leader of the group, it's easier for advanced acolytes to peel off needing no more help, or for junior ones to "pastor-shop". You are probably right in that the command-control style is less of an easy sell to a liberal congregation.

I still think though the two could be blended. A charismatic (personally, not theologically) preacher could still inspire if not dictate actions; encourage if not demand the support and commitment that the fundy megachurch guys do, and build the same kind of group cohesion.

Anecdote alert: I live in a southern Midwest small city with a population about evenly split according to demographic data amongst Christians between fundies and mainline/black/minor denominations. Obviously I don't go to the churches but fairly popular around town (and much more than I've noticed before elsewhere) are two things that tell me allegiance. Window decals/stickers on cars and t-shirts. Pretty basic, inoffensive, non dictatorial signs of both group unity and indirect marketing.

Every single one of them I've ever seen is for one of the fundy churches. I moved here a year ago. Were I a practising or potential Christian which churches would have seemed most vibrant and important in the community, attracting my first visits?

Now yes one small city is not all there is and doubtless at other places liberal churches have great outreach. But it's the littl things like that that help build congregations.

Theologically I am trying to think of a denomination that would possibly do a good job of evangelizing liberal Christianity and I see some of your issues. The doctrinally attractive ones are not evangelical enough and vice versa. Maybe if the Nazerenes eased up on irrelevant behaviors like dancing or drinking they might be a candidate - their Christian perfection and free Grace theologies at least have the foundation needed, and they do evangelism well. But probably would have to come from a non-denominational group, which is also rare among liberals (somewhat strangely given the lack of authoritarianism in their typical ministry).

It could be done I believe, but yes they would have to use new ways to do it.

[dimbear]

9. Think about the enormous crowds that go to see touch football games, compared to the NFL.

If that isn't to your taste, recall the fate of the liberal preacher in the book "Elmer Gantry."

Not pretty.

[raccoon]

36. What happened to the liberal preacher in the book "Elmer Gantry?" nt

[dimbear]

40. Elmer Gantry update:

He complained openly about the crap the fundies were pulling, and got taken for ride--beaten up and crippled.

Sinclair Lewis didn't pull any punches. That book was a bestseller when it came out--wouldn't make a ripple in today's atmosphere.

Still worth a read, even if it is a long damn book.

[WingDinger]

10. Jesus seemed to do alright selling liberal Christianity.

[laconicsax]

12. Really?

You have an interesting definition of 'doing alright.'

[WingDinger]

17. Well, he certainly didnt do as alright as a televangelist, but

doing right was more the focus.

Jesus did much that would get him hung. Women in his authority circle. Sick, poor, etc were his friends. Threw out the usury moneychangers. Free healthcare. Fish and loaves soup kitchen.

Dont let RAMBO JESUS revamp throw ya.

[Starboard Tack]

25. Good point, but guys like him only come around every couple of millennia

and then they get crucified. But, you are right, the "real christians" who espouse humility and gentleness don't usually make charismatic leaders. Look what happened to Jimmy Carter.

[rrneck]

11. The same thing that makes churches

powerful makes corporations powerful. Progressive values and corporate interests don't exactly align.

[hattiebgood]

13. Looking for a few good men. ;-)

There are a few renowned liberal Christian messengers. Jim Wallis, Shane Claiborne and Tony Campolo come to mind. Look for their websites and acquaint yourself with them. It is refreshing to gain perspective that expresses the compassion and liberality of the Gospel of Jesus.

[laconicsax]

14. Jim Wallis and Tony Campolo are homophobic bigots. n/t

Last edited Tue Jun 12, 2012, 09:47 PM - Edit history (1)

[hattiebgood]

16. I should read them more because. . .

I did not know that.

[laconicsax]

18. Here are some links:

http://gaymarriedcalifornian.blogspot.com/2011/05/jim-wallis-andrew-marin-and-hollowness.html

http://gaychristian.net/campolos.php

Apparently, Campolo's book, Red Letter Christians has him opposing marriage equality.

[WingDinger]

19. And how do you think Jesus would feel about their judgmental, bigotted asses?

[laconicsax]

20. Assuming he ever existed, he probably wouldn't have minded.

Homophobia wasn't exactly frowned upon 2000 years ago and there are no verses attributed to him that are explicitly about homosexuality (especially since the concept of homosexuality vs. heterosexuality is a more recent invention).

[WingDinger]

21. Give me a friggin break. Greece was all about the penis.

He had prostitutes, tax men/ripoffs, poor, mentally ill and all other types, and you ASSUME he would disapprove of same sex attraction?

Try not loading your chip on Jesus shoulders. Religion sucks. Religion is your enemy, not Jesus. And he would be right there fighting it alongside YOU.

[laconicsax]

22. Umm...Jesus wasn't Greek. He was meant to have lived in Roman Judea.

Also, I never said that he would have disapproved of same-sex attraction, I said that he probably wouldn't care about homophobes expressing their bigotry.

That said, being a Rabbi, he would have come from a religious background that very much disapproved of male-male sex and since he never said anything about it, it's plausible that he either agreed with that prejudice or was indifferent to it.

Think about it, IF Jesus existed AND the Synoptic Gospels contain an accurate account of his teachings AND a prohibition on male-male sex was part of the existing Jewish religious law, then it stands to reason that since Jesus is recorded as expressing his disagreement about other contemporary practices, that he would have at least mentioned his disapproval.

Personally, I don't worry about it. Homophobia is wrong regardless of what an allegorical character in an ancient book says.

[scribble]

15. ... there were Liberal Christians once....

... They were abolitionists. They pushed for women's suffrage. They created co-ops and cleaned up local elections. They helped to pass the food and drug standards and anti-monopoly legislation that helped to found our earlier Progressive political movement. Later, they pushed to outlaw child labor, helped to establish our modern public school system, helped to form unions and passed anti-usury laws. By the 1930s, they were pushing to create Social Security and other social safety net programs.

There always were other Christians. If you are part of the establishment, you don't want to spend money to create a local congregation that might push for community changes that would undo business practices that help you make money. Those congregations still exist. We all know who they are. They've been joined recently, by local megaChurches who exist now in most towns and cities.


What tipped the scales against Christian Liberalism?

There are a lot of minor historical benchmarks we could point to, especially between 1917 to maybe 1980. I personally see a terrible split among American Churches over Vietnam, which never healed. This is where I personally think Christians ran off the rails, with Southern pro-Vietnam denominations spreading nationwide, with help from the Republican party. The Democratic Party abandoned the Liberal Christians among its ranks. So did unions and even the academic community whom Liberal Christians had helped to create 75 years earlier, when they pushed to create free State Universities across the country. That's where we are, today.


Where does this leave Jesus?

... he's lost.

Whether or not you believe in him; he had specific things to say about how we live.

That message is gone, because it was the "Liberal" branch of the Christian movement that carried it, and it is gone now.

The churches who remain, do not preach his message. "Liberal" Christians have no way to object to what they see going on -- because they no longer have Liberal Congregations they can join, who use Jesus' real message to push in Christian ways for social change.

sc

[trotsky]

24. The first hurdle to clear is defining what liberal Christianity is.

Good luck with that. Lots of self-proclaimed liberal Christians like to point at Jim Wallis as an example, but he opposes marriage equality. So who knows?

I guess it's the comments of anonymous people on an Internet message board that are preventing liberal Christians from being heard on the national stage.

[dmallind]

30. True, but there's no need to aim for unifying even liberal Christianity in total.

There are after all disagreements doctrinally and politically between the fundy groups too, but they each and together hugely influence voting and support for or opposition to new ideas. It wouldn't matter if there were 50 evangelical liberal Christian megachurches and pressure groups. It wouldn't matter much even if some opposed gay marriage or abortion. As long as the movement in toto pushed left of center politics as a moral issue, including equality and choice but also anti-poverty and anti-war of choice, it would, and could, be a good thing politically.

[trotsky]

32. I think it's much trickier for liberal Christianity though.

Conservative ones are in near lockstep agreement on the major issues: homosexuality, sex ed, birth control, abortion.

Liberal Christians may or may not agree on all of those issues. And because of their hot-button nature, they might be turned off simply due to the one issue they disagree about.

But like jeepnstein, I don't think melding religion & politics is a good idea to begin with, no matter whose politics it is.

[2ndAmForComputers]

43. WHAT? Jim Homophobe Wallis?

No person who supports Jim Wallis is a liberal. Because there's no such thing as a homophobe liberal.

[jeepnstein]

27. Why should we "sell" Christianity?

I reject the politicization of the Church from either side. It's supposed to rise above worldly politics. The people who choose to drag the Church into politics are bent on destroying it, no matter if they are on the Left or the Right.

It's not about politics, never was, never will be.

[dmallind]

28. In an ideal world you'd be right. This isn't one

There are millions of Americans getting their politics from the pulpit every week. Voter guides are issued by the fundies by the forest-load. Catholic bishops tell us who can't be a good Catholic because they are fine with equality and choice, while nary a peep about cutting off aid to the poor or killing innocent Muslims even being questionable.

Probably the three biggest correlations to political inclination are race, gender and religiosity. We can't do anything to affect the first two, and the secular Enlightenment has been a long time coming to these shores and shows no sign of hoving in from across the Atlantic any time soon. So since we have a huge influence on political thought that theoretically could be manipulated and right now is almost exclusively helping the right, it would seem a good idea to me to nudge it a bit leftward. When people are asked what "Christian" means to them, "gay-bashing" comes up tops. Wouldn't it be better for us all if "helping the poor" did so instead?

[cbayer]

31. Is there data to support your claim that "gay bashing" comes up tops when people

are asked what christian means to them?

I would be interested in seeing that (and the other results).

[trotsky]

33. Research has been done and books have been written.

Here's one: http://www.harvardichthus.org/fishtank/2010/07/word-association-christianity-and-unchristian/

The results of Kinnaman’s research with the Barna Group read like the world’s most revealing and awful game of word association, with words like “bigoted,” “antihomosexual,” “judgmental,” “hypocritical,” “sheltered,” and “too political” coming up as the terms or phrases most often associated with Christianity.

[cbayer]

34. Great article. Thanks.

[turtlerescue1]

35. This email came a while back:

The light turned yellow just in front of him. He did the right thing, stopping at the crosswalk, even though he could beaten the red light by accelerating through the intersection.

The tailgating woman was furious, and honked her horn, screaming in frustration, as she missed her chance to go through the intersection, dropping her cell phone and make up.

As she was still in mid-rant, she heard a tap on her window, and look up into the face of a very serious police officer. The officer ordered to exit her car with her hands up.

He took her to the police station where she was searched; fingerprinted, photographed and placed in a holding cell.

After a couple of hours a police man approached the cell and opened the door. She was escorted back to Booking where the arresting officer was waiting with her personal affects.

He said: "I am very sorry for this mistake. You see, I pulled up behind your car while you were blowing your horn, flipping off the guy in front of you, and cussing a blue streak. I noticed the "What Would Jesus Do?" bumper sticker, the "Choose Life' license plate holder, the "Follow me to SundaySchool" bumper sticker, and the chrome-plated Christian fish emblem on your trunk, so naturally ...I assumed you had stolen the car."

[cbayer]

39. Very good!

[Bradical79]

44. Step 1: Edit the Bible

The Bible is a collection of books compiled by ancient religious conservatives. A pretty significant chunk of it consists of people doing horrible things to each other, sexist/bigoted men making terrible laws, and more of those same men giving awful advice on how to live your life. Most of it really isn't consistent with modern liberal values.