Thoughts on religion:

[guillaumeb]

One Song
Every war and every conflict
between human beings has happened
because of some disagreement about names.
It is such an unnecessary foolishness,
because just beyond the arguing
there is a long table of companionship
set and waiting for us to sit down.
What is praised is one, so the praise is one too,
many jugs being poured into a huge basin.
All religions, all this singing, one song.
The differences are just illusion and vanity.
Sunlight looks a little different
on this wall than it does on that wall
and a lot different on this other one,
but it is still the same light.
We have borrowed these clothes,
these time-and-space personalities,
from a light, and when we praise,
we are pouring them back in.
Rumi

Who was Rumi?

Dīn Muhammad Rūmī , Persian: جلال?الدین محمد رومی? also known as Jalāl ad-Dīn Muhammad Balkhī, جلال?الدین محمد بلخى Mevlânâ/Mawlānā مولانا, "our master", Mevlevî/Mawlawī , and more popularly simply as Rumi (30 September 1207 – 17 December 1273), was a 13th-century Persian Sunni Muslim poet, jurist, Islamic scholar, theologian, and Sufi mystic originally from Greater Khorasan. Rumi's influence transcends national borders and ethnic divisions: Iranians, Tajiks, Turks, Greeks, Pashtuns, other Central Asian Muslims, and the Muslims of South Asia have greatly appreciated his spiritual legacy for the past seven centuries.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rumi

There are indeed many names for the Creator.

[MineralMan]

1. What are YOUR thoughts, Guy?

What do you believe? Do you even know?

[guillaumeb]

3. You know what you personally believe.

As to the correctness of your own belief, or the utility, that is another matter.

[MineralMan]

4. That is not an answer.

I cannot compel you to answer, of course, but your non-answer speaks loudly.

[guillaumeb]

6. Much of what you say here to theists, and the manner in which you choose to say it,

speaks even louder.


But I believe that, no matter our philosophical label, we are all searching for the truth about existence.

[Act_of_Reparation]

8. Hey, at least he's up front and honest about what he believes.

And his posts don't read like they started off as mad libs.

So there's that.

[guillaumeb]

9. And upfront with insults and condescension.

So there is that also.

[MineralMan]

10. I see you've dropped back in to talk about me.

Do proceed.

[guillaumeb]

11. I already did.

As did the other poster.

[MineralMan]

12. Are you a theist, Guy?

Of what sort?

[guillaumeb]

13. To help you:

theism

1) the belief in one God as the creator and ruler of the universe, without rejection of revelation (distinguished from deism).
2) belief in the existence of a god or gods (opposed to atheism).

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/theist

[MineralMan]

14. That is not an answer.

What sort of theist are you? Can you not make even one direct statement about your personal beliefs?

[guillaumeb]

15. I believe in the Creator.

I have previously made numerous statements about my beliefs.

[MineralMan]

16. Which creator? There are many.

Do you align yourself with any particular religious system?

[guillaumeb]

17. I was raised in the RCC.

17 years of education in RCC institutions.

As Rumi wrote, there are many words for the Creator.

[MineralMan]

18. That is also not an answer.

It is a simple question, in the present tense. Perhaps you are just a diffuse theist, with no particular affiliation. Is Vishnu one of the deities you worship? Kali? Thor?

[guillaumeb]

19. My answer is consistent with the poem that is the subject of this post.

And that is a simple answer.

But what did you think of the poem? What do you think that Rumi was saying?

When I say that I believe in the Creator, what do you understand, or not understand, by my response?

[MineralMan]

20. I cannot ask Rumi.

He appears to be a generally religious philosopoet. He takes a rather diffuse approach. Can you not provide a concise declarative statement about your religious beliefs? I do not want someone else's statement, no matter how florid. I'm asking you, Guy. Have you no answer?

[guillaumeb]

21. See #15.

That is a concise, declarative statement.

And Rumi's point, as I see it, speaks to humans approaching the Creator while focusing too much on the name.

Edited to add; also see #5

[MineralMan]

22. Perhaps, then, you are simply a deist.

Is that it? Or an unfocused "searcher?"

Have you lost your way? Are your RCC roots no longer anchored in fertile soil?
M
Are you casting about for an answer? That's OK.

[guillaumeb]

23. Again, as my posts make obvious,

I believe in the Creator. The totality of my 17 years of education leads me to this belief.

My RCC roots are only a part of my faith roots. I can appreciate the search of many theists.

[MineralMan]

24. Never mind, then.

You can tell me nothing. I'll stop asking. Let me know if you find whatever it is you're looking for. Or ask questions. Perhaps someone here has an answer for you.

[guillaumeb]

25. We both have our own answers.

And I believe that we both are convinced that our separate answers are correct.

[PJMcK]

29. You love this shit!

And I enjoy reading your posts.

Keep at it, MM.

[marylandblue]

28. He appears to be a deist who calls himself a Christian

[MineralMan]

31. Well, of late, it looks like he's branching out.

But, yes, I see a definite deist there. Nothing wrong with that, of course. Deism is a valid way to see things, although it is a very short step from there to atheism, really.

As religion becomes more and more diffuse, through looking at multiple religious traditions, many end up taking that final step and lose their belief that any deities exist.

For some, though, atheism is a step too far. They need to retain some grasp on the concept of a deity or "Creator."

[Bretton Garcia]

32. Many formerly liberal Christians went further, like Gil.

To embrace ecumenism. And the idea that all religions are related, and are about the same thing.
All are " one."

A bit like that multi-faith bumper sticker. Though most leave out the more secular feminist symbols and so forth.

[cornball 24]

2. Thank you, Guillaumeb, as always for getting to the heart of why we all matter.

[guillaumeb]

5. Thank you.

We are all searching, and what we search for has been called by many names. And these names also apply to what we call countries.


That search unites us, even if we are divided by label.


My daughter first brought Rumi to my attention after she had taken an introductory course on his poetry and philosophy as part of her studies.

[cornball 24]

7. I am human. I am flawed. The life I've lived deserves no laud. So I pray

before I die that I will strive and I will try
to accomplish just one thing of worth
before my time to leave this earth.

[bitterross]

26. What a stupid premise in the poem.

Every war and every conflict
between human beings has happened
because of some disagreement about names.

He starts off wrong and gets no better. Every war and and every conflict - even in the 13th century - is about fear. People fear loosing something they have. People fear not getting something the desire or believe the deserve. People fear that some one else's God is going to take things away from them and give them to their chosen people.

All of this is crystal clear in today's news and conflict over Judge Kavanaugh.

[guillaumeb]

27. Names are critical.

What we name something, what we name ourselves.

We disagree on the validity of the poem, and the observation.

Every conflict can be reduced to one tribe against another. Each tribe has a different name. Jonathan Swift made the same point in Gulliver's Travels with his story of the war between the Big Endians and the Little Endians.

[Act_of_Reparation]

30. You can't prove that.

Your opinion.

Argle bargle.

[guillaumeb]

33. Your last sentence was by far the best part of your reply. eom

[marylandblue]

34. Funny. The first two sentences are things you often say.

[MineralMan]

36. Look. See, they're not true when others say them.

Those are the rules. Here, we abide by the rules and commandments. Yes. That's it.

[Voltaire2]

35. Is that what the author meant?

“Every war and every conflict
between human beings has happened
because of some disagreement about names.”

Your explanation of that sentence is that it is true because each tribe has a different name?

Wtf. Try harder.

[guillaumeb]

37. That is my interpretation of Rumi's poem.

And yes, names are symbols.

[Voltaire2]

38. Seriously?

Last edited Sat Oct 6, 2018, 09:54 PM - Edit history (1)

You think that Rumi meant that all wars are caused by different names for tribes?

In a literature class test that answer would get a 0.

Perhaps he was referring to the pervasive Christian v Muslim conflicts of his era and that both religions are referring to the same abrahamic deity using different words? Just maybe? I mean you sort of got that in your comment in your op. Seems you just got lost in the weeds down thread.

[MineralMan]

39. It means whatever I say it means at the time I say what it means.

And that's that!

[guillaumeb]

40. What is a name?

It is a label, an identifier, a way of denoting one group from another.

Your answers rate, at best, a near failing score.

[Voltaire2]

41. I'm rubber and you're glue.

Congratulations on reducing discussion here, once more, to grade school levels.

[guillaumeb]

42. No, it was your responses that did that.

So congratulate yourself.