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MineralMan

(146,317 posts)
Wed Aug 29, 2018, 03:43 PM Aug 2018

Apparently, Jesus said it was OK for priests to sexually molest children.

Since the largest denomination of Christianity has been doing that for as long as anyone can remember without usually punishing those who do the molesting, it must be written somewhere, I'd think. I can't find it, so maybe it's written in some archived, secret part of scripture.

I can think of no other explanation for such abuse to go on, unchecked, century after century, and in every place where the RCC can be found. The United States, South America, Ireland, Africa. And who knows what horrors will be revealed next?

Since no serious action is being taken, neither to end the practice nor to punish the perpetrators, I can come to no other conclusion but to think that Jesus, who is represented by that church, according to the church itself, is OK with such abuse.

Shocking! Horrifying!

69 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Apparently, Jesus said it was OK for priests to sexually molest children. (Original Post) MineralMan Aug 2018 OP
You could only come to that conclusion if jesus were still here Fullduplexxx Aug 2018 #1
Ask Christians, and they'll tell you that Jesus is still here. MineralMan Aug 2018 #3
Wait, is there nothing we can know about this Voltaire2 Aug 2018 #4
An excellent question, indeed. MineralMan Aug 2018 #6
Truly sad. tulipsandroses Aug 2018 #2
Yes. It's beyond sad, really. It's maddening to me. MineralMan Aug 2018 #5
Carlin answered that for you. Its in the section, "suffer the little children." 3Hotdogs Aug 2018 #7
Yes. I've often re-translated that passage to "suffer, little children who come unto me." MineralMan Aug 2018 #10
Predates christianity zipplewrath Aug 2018 #8
Thanks for that exposition of the problem. You're right, of course. MineralMan Aug 2018 #9
You might be surprised how poorly it is handled zipplewrath Aug 2018 #20
I wouldn't be surprised at all. MineralMan Aug 2018 #22
Domestic violence zipplewrath Aug 2018 #23
Yes. That, too. MineralMan Aug 2018 #24
Most other organizations that deal with children have addressed it Major Nikon Aug 2018 #43
"this is a problem of pedophiles getting into an organization" trotsky Aug 2018 #13
I heard that somewhere zipplewrath Aug 2018 #21
Well, in all seriousness, Jesus said that you needed to confess your sins to god... trotsky Aug 2018 #11
Well, at one time, masturbation was a deadly sin, according to thousands of priests. MineralMan Aug 2018 #12
Constantine's deathbed conversion is the gold standard here. Pope George Ringo II Aug 2018 #65
Ridiculous title, guillaumeb Aug 2018 #14
Well, then. I guess you told me, eh? MineralMan Aug 2018 #15
Use the criticism as an inspiration to do better in the future. guillaumeb Aug 2018 #16
Oh, my... MineralMan Aug 2018 #17
I enjoyed the OP Immensely . stonecutter357 Aug 2018 #26
What exactly made it so enjoyable? eom guillaumeb Aug 2018 #28
Have you ever read Jonathan Swift? edhopper Aug 2018 #37
Are you a Big endian, or a little Endian? guillaumeb Aug 2018 #40
why not break them edhopper Aug 2018 #41
How can anyone believe such a thing? eom guillaumeb Aug 2018 #48
Straight from the DLC edhopper Sep 2018 #69
Thanks. Satire gets missed by some folks MineralMan Aug 2018 #38
sometimes edhopper Aug 2018 #42
Yes, so it often seems. MineralMan Aug 2018 #46
Which is true for assertions about imaginary friends Major Nikon Aug 2018 #18
What a nice, polite post! MineralMan Aug 2018 #19
Keeping my response in the spirit of your post. guillaumeb Aug 2018 #25
Do you think it is OK for priests to sexually molest children ? stonecutter357 Aug 2018 #27
Do you think that a misleading title accomplishes anything? guillaumeb Aug 2018 #29
You understood what I meant perfectly well, guillaumeb. MineralMan Aug 2018 #32
Yes, the agenda is transparent. guillaumeb Aug 2018 #34
The actions of apologists speaks volumes Major Nikon Aug 2018 #44
So, are you saying that many Catholic priests are not guilty of sexually molesting MineralMan Aug 2018 #33
Predators prey because they are predators. guillaumeb Aug 2018 #35
So, why does the Roman Catholic Church keep them around, MineralMan Aug 2018 #36
Because it seems to be one characteristic of institutions to protect members guillaumeb Aug 2018 #39
Name one other organization... Major Nikon Aug 2018 #45
The US military. guillaumeb Aug 2018 #49
When did they do that with a child rapist? marylandblue Aug 2018 #54
And when did they do in hundreds of times in just one jurisdiction? MineralMan Aug 2018 #56
Document it, guillaumeb. MineralMan Aug 2018 #55
You also have access to Google. guillaumeb Aug 2018 #63
A few guillaumeb Aug 2018 #64
You should read the articles you post marylandblue Aug 2018 #66
None of those are actually equivalent to the sort of child sexual abuse MineralMan Sep 2018 #67
Organizations cover up for abusers. guillaumeb Sep 2018 #68
... Major Nikon Aug 2018 #59
Hmm...and that seems worthy of condemnation. MineralMan Aug 2018 #47
I excuse nothing. guillaumeb Aug 2018 #50
Sure you do. All the time. MineralMan Aug 2018 #51
If every organization that sheltered those who commit crimes were to be dissolved, guillaumeb Aug 2018 #62
Is that what it was meant with WhiteTara Aug 2018 #30
Normally, that is taken to mean "allow" the children to MineralMan Aug 2018 #31
That's why I don't believe anyone speaks for God HopeAgain Aug 2018 #52
Nor do I, since I don't believe that any such deities exist. MineralMan Aug 2018 #53
Of course they should be held to account HopeAgain Aug 2018 #61
... 2naSalit Aug 2018 #57
For those who are unfamiliar with that poet: MineralMan Aug 2018 #58
Indeed. thanks for the follow up bio! 2naSalit Aug 2018 #60

Fullduplexxx

(7,864 posts)
1. You could only come to that conclusion if jesus were still here
Wed Aug 29, 2018, 03:52 PM
Aug 2018

Otherwise it's just evil people using the religion to their own end

MineralMan

(146,317 posts)
3. Ask Christians, and they'll tell you that Jesus is still here.
Wed Aug 29, 2018, 03:57 PM
Aug 2018

They talk to him all the time. They believe that he is here and listening to their prayers.

They think he's watching them, too. The Roman Catholics think the bread and water literally become his flesh and blood. They actually d believe that, especially the priestly class.

So, if they believe he's here, why do they behave in that way and cover up crimes against children. See, that's why I have to conclude that they have permission somehow. I mean, who would flaunt such evil behavior if Jesus is right there watching.

Lots of paradoxes involved with religion, it seems.

See, it's not me who believes that Jesus is here. It's the very ones who are doing the evil deeds. They claim to believe that. And yet, they act as they do. Go figure.

Voltaire2

(13,061 posts)
4. Wait, is there nothing we can know about this
Wed Aug 29, 2018, 03:57 PM
Aug 2018

Jesus religion? He didn’t write anything down, if he even existed. All we have is copies of stuff written by people long after this guy was supposed to have lived. All of them could have been “evil people using religion for their own ends”. So what is left?

tulipsandroses

(5,124 posts)
2. Truly sad.
Wed Aug 29, 2018, 03:56 PM
Aug 2018

As I was watching MSNBC a few weeks ago, one of the whistleblowers said, when someone steals money from the church, they call the police. When priests abuse children, they move the priest to another church. That is quite telling about what the church values.

MineralMan

(146,317 posts)
10. Yes. I've often re-translated that passage to "suffer, little children who come unto me."
Wed Aug 29, 2018, 04:37 PM
Aug 2018

Since the original language didn't really use articles like "the" and "a," it's a rational translation, too.

zipplewrath

(16,646 posts)
8. Predates christianity
Wed Aug 29, 2018, 04:23 PM
Aug 2018

Child molestation predates Christianity. Truth is that the definition of child molestation probably doesn't even exist until roughly the last 300 years or so. And apparently the definition also didn't apply to children of slaves in this country at all. It was generally not spoken of publicly however.

As someone in another thread has pointed out, this is a problem of pedophiles getting into an organization. If you are an organization in which adults deal with children, you are going to have pedophiles seeking to become involved. What exacerbated this is the fact that the priesthood has a system of discipline inside of the organization, which predates most "secular" laws and is seen by the organization as being the "preferred" method of enforcing that discipline. It is unfortunately a system which favors the members, and as such not the "external" victims. In one sense it is not all that different that our laws which presume innocence. The flaw of course is that within "cannon law" there really is no portion that is predominately concerned with the victim. Ultimately, all aspects of the system are dedicated to preserving "the Church". So the pedophiles flourished. Worse, they got in positions of power and authority. Additionally, even the members that were not pedophiles, became "compromised" by their participation in the system which hid the pedophiles. So as the situation worsened, the focus became upon hiding what was happening, not stopping it from happening.

By the way, as most are aware, it is still going on. Worse, there are nearly equally as disturbing things going on in various African and Asian areas with abuse of nuns and other members of the "faithful". What the various victim organizations are begging for, and demanding is not apologies, but in fact actual structural changes. They have not been forecoming from the last 3 popes.

The problems of the Roman Catholic Church extend from about the time of the Great Schism and the period in Western Europe when they became the defacto governmental authority. They've never really recognized that and attempted to address it.

MineralMan

(146,317 posts)
9. Thanks for that exposition of the problem. You're right, of course.
Wed Aug 29, 2018, 04:34 PM
Aug 2018

It's a longstanding problem. What is intensely frustrating is the lack of movement toward solving it. Perhaps it's not even possible to solve it. I don't know. In any case, all such cases should be immediately referred to the civil authorities for prosecution and punishment. The church should no longer be allowed to handle this situation in any way at all.

zipplewrath

(16,646 posts)
20. You might be surprised how poorly it is handled
Thu Aug 30, 2018, 01:15 PM
Aug 2018

I understand the concept of reporting, but you might be surprised how poorly "civil authorities" perform when confronted with this. I've said more than once, if you run an organization that involves children, the pedophiles will try to get in. Your very structure, from the get go, should be set up to detect/prevent/discourage their penetration into the organization.

MineralMan

(146,317 posts)
22. I wouldn't be surprised at all.
Thu Aug 30, 2018, 01:23 PM
Aug 2018

Here in the Twin Cities, we've recently learned that the Minneapolis PD has not bothered to investigate the vast majority of sexual assault cases at all. In most cases, they never lifted a finger to investigate. That scandal is big news here.

We see that everywhere. If a pretty young white girl is abducted, it leads the news for days. If a person of color is abducted, it may not even be mentioned. The same sort of inequity exists for child sexual abuse as well. Our society is at fault in many areas.



zipplewrath

(16,646 posts)
23. Domestic violence
Thu Aug 30, 2018, 01:50 PM
Aug 2018

There was an article here a while back that showed that 92% of all domestic violence incidents go unprosecuted. This is almost entirely because they go un-investigated. The don't do the most basic of evidence collection such as photos, witness interviews, neighborhood canvasing, etc. Don't even hope for fingernail swabs or hair sample collection or anything.

MineralMan

(146,317 posts)
24. Yes. That, too.
Thu Aug 30, 2018, 01:59 PM
Aug 2018

Investigations are expensive, so they don't bother with them. If someone raises hell about it or some prominent person is involved, they'll investigate, but not unless one of those happens.

Major Nikon

(36,827 posts)
43. Most other organizations that deal with children have addressed it
Thu Aug 30, 2018, 11:07 PM
Aug 2018

It’s not that difficult. You see things like background checks, mandatory two adult rules around children, and mandatory reporting suspected abuse to authorities. Those who violate the rules are subject to zero tolerance expulsion. Meanwhile the RCC is still “negotiating” with prosecutors on what information they will release and some of the worst child rapists and their enablers are still on the payroll and there’s been virtually no changes to policies to protect children.

The difference is those other organizations would cease to exist if they didn’t change, yet the donations to the RCC just keep rolling in.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
13. "this is a problem of pedophiles getting into an organization"
Wed Aug 29, 2018, 05:01 PM
Aug 2018

But it is particularly a problem with the RCC organization, because it has a system by which it avoids secular law consequences, protecting its offenders and denying justice to their victims. All under the banner of religious beliefs.

zipplewrath

(16,646 posts)
21. I heard that somewhere
Thu Aug 30, 2018, 01:16 PM
Aug 2018
What exacerbated this is the fact that the priesthood has a system of discipline inside of the organization, which predates most "secular" laws and is seen by the organization as being the "preferred" method of enforcing that discipline.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
11. Well, in all seriousness, Jesus said that you needed to confess your sins to god...
Wed Aug 29, 2018, 04:47 PM
Aug 2018

and ask for forgiveness. That's it.

A mass murderer could do that on their death bed, and be accepted into heaven, according to Catholic theology.

(A woman who had an abortion could not, but that's a topic for another thread.)

So surely a priest who raped a child need only confess that sin to a bishop or something, be forgiven, then transferred to another parish where he could do the same thing all over again. We know this happened thousands of times. All within the parameters of what Jesus allegedly taught.

MineralMan

(146,317 posts)
12. Well, at one time, masturbation was a deadly sin, according to thousands of priests.
Wed Aug 29, 2018, 04:53 PM
Aug 2018

I wonder how many boys confessed to that horrible sin and were told they had to be "counseled" by the priest.

Forgiveness in the RCC has come at varying costs to the sinner in history. It wasn't just a matter of confession and penance for a long period in that church's history. Old constipated Martin Luther started the Reformation over indulgences that fattened the Vatican's purse. Scandal seems to follow that denomination like a stray dog follows a boy.

I remember the priest in my small town Catholic church. There was a live-in woman as a housekeeper at the rectory. I remember wondering about that arrangement as a teenager.

If we could look at RCC history through a time window, I imagine we'd find all sorts of things to comment about here.

Here's an interesting article about rectory housekeepers in Ireland:

https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/housekeepers-for-priests-were-exploited-study-147548.html#ixzz1UaHpjrKF

Pope George Ringo II

(1,896 posts)
65. Constantine's deathbed conversion is the gold standard here.
Fri Aug 31, 2018, 09:51 PM
Aug 2018

Murder your way through life, repent at the last second, escape all the afterlife penalties. If somebody can actually game the system like that, it argues rather convincingly that your god is a moron.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
16. Use the criticism as an inspiration to do better in the future.
Wed Aug 29, 2018, 05:16 PM
Aug 2018

There is no need to post everything that might occur while looking out a window.

edhopper

(33,587 posts)
37. Have you ever read Jonathan Swift?
Thu Aug 30, 2018, 05:45 PM
Aug 2018

Sometimes satire and parody are useful to illuminated a injustice and corruption.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
25. Keeping my response in the spirit of your post.
Thu Aug 30, 2018, 02:25 PM
Aug 2018

Your post is a classic attack post designed to accomplish...……..something, one assumes. But if you build on a foundation of sand, expect a weak structure. And this one is indeed a weak structure.

MineralMan

(146,317 posts)
32. You understood what I meant perfectly well, guillaumeb.
Thu Aug 30, 2018, 03:11 PM
Aug 2018

It wasn't misleading, nor did was it intended to be. Everyone understands that, but you pretend not to. Transparent.

MineralMan

(146,317 posts)
33. So, are you saying that many Catholic priests are not guilty of sexually molesting
Thu Aug 30, 2018, 03:15 PM
Aug 2018

children by the thousands? Is that what you're saying? My post was written as it was to show the malicious nature of the RCC's covering up of that abuse. Or do you not thing its cover-up is as deplorable as I do?

How do you suppose they justify their horrible behavior? Obviously they do justify it, or it wouldn't be as prevalent. Both the abuse and the hiding of that abuse is tolerated by the RCC. What of that?

MineralMan

(146,317 posts)
36. So, why does the Roman Catholic Church keep them around,
Thu Aug 30, 2018, 03:54 PM
Aug 2018

coddle them, and protect them from legal action? Is the Roman Catholic Church a predatory organization?

The consistent pattern of allowing priests to continue to engage in child sexual abuse is a hallmark of what is currently being investigated.

Yes, of course predators prey on people. That's not the issue here. Apparently, some also pray for victims. Then they pray for protection by their organization. Those prayers are answered positively.

Are you excusing the Roman Catholic Church for this behavior pattern, which has been demonstrated in far too many place to be a mere coincidence?

Pray Tell. Or Prey Tell. Homophones.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
39. Because it seems to be one characteristic of institutions to protect members
Thu Aug 30, 2018, 09:01 PM
Aug 2018

from outside scrutiny.

Je vous prie de m'excuser si je ne repond pas a votre question.

Major Nikon

(36,827 posts)
45. Name one other organization...
Thu Aug 30, 2018, 11:20 PM
Aug 2018

That moves suspected child rapists to other jurisdictions to avoid prosecution, pays for their legal defense if they can’t escape prosecution, has their own country with restrictive extradition laws that shield child rapists, and provide child rapists with lifelong material support.

So yeah, keep pretending the RCC is no different. Your refusal to answer the question speaks volumes.

MineralMan

(146,317 posts)
56. And when did they do in hundreds of times in just one jurisdiction?
Fri Aug 31, 2018, 03:04 PM
Aug 2018

I doubt that guillaumeb can produce any evidence of that. I don't believe such has occurred. It has, however, occurred within the Roman Catholic Church, and on a wholesale basis.

And what of the genocide of the First Peoples in the Americas, carried out with the consent and help of the Roman Catholic Church? Child sex abuse is not its only crime, you know. The list of crimes against humanity is long. There is much that needs to be repaid. What of Muslims slaughtered during the Crusades? What value do we place on them?

The Roman Catholic Church has a lengthy history of inhuman abuse. It is a continuum that dates back to its very beginnings. What of that, guillaumeb. Is all that to be ignored, despite evidence that that organization is still systematically harming innocent human beings in brutal ways? I say not.

MineralMan

(146,317 posts)
55. Document it, guillaumeb.
Fri Aug 31, 2018, 03:03 PM
Aug 2018

Document it for 2000 years. Show us your evidence. We already have evidence in the case of the church. There's much more of it, too, waiting to be uncovered.

So show us the documentation of historical, wholesale covering up of child sexual abuse by the US Military. Thanks.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
63. You also have access to Google.
Fri Aug 31, 2018, 09:01 PM
Aug 2018

I have posted a few articles detailing how the US military has covered for sex abusers of underage children and adults.

I have no intention of redoing that work.

But, feel free to document your own claim of 2000 years of sex abuse.

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
66. You should read the articles you post
Fri Aug 31, 2018, 11:10 PM
Aug 2018

The first two are about children assaulting other children. A problem in itself, but not the same as a network of serial adult abusers violating a sacred trust.

The third is about rapes in Colombia that were widely covered in the Colombian press but not the American press. So no actual coverup, just a lazy and uncaring American press. Also, a lot of the rapes were done by mercenaries. Do you really want to consider priests as being on the same level as mercenaries? I don't think you'll get an argument from DU atheists on that one.

The fourth is about soldier who were court martialed for sexual abuse, that is, prosecuted rather covered up. So the opposite of what the Catholic Church did.

MineralMan

(146,317 posts)
67. None of those are actually equivalent to the sort of child sexual abuse
Sat Sep 1, 2018, 09:38 AM
Sep 2018

from Priests of the Catholic Church. Did you read them? Poor examples that document nothing equivalent. Just as I expected.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
68. Organizations cover up for abusers.
Sat Sep 1, 2018, 05:43 PM
Sep 2018

I hoped that you would see the behavioral pattern.

Again, what I expected.

MineralMan

(146,317 posts)
47. Hmm...and that seems worthy of condemnation.
Fri Aug 31, 2018, 09:15 AM
Aug 2018

We condemn other organizations that do similar things. When law enforcement doesn't police its own members, and protects officers who kill innocent people, that's a similar concern.

So, I condemn the Roman Catholic Church for the very characteristic you excuse. And i won't excuse your failure to respond to questions here in this group. Nope. You can pray as much as you wish for that, but it will not be forthcoming.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
50. I excuse nothing.
Fri Aug 31, 2018, 02:34 PM
Aug 2018

The fact that you fail to realize that, in the face of my numerous posts about that same subject, speaks volumes.

MineralMan

(146,317 posts)
51. Sure you do. All the time.
Fri Aug 31, 2018, 02:51 PM
Aug 2018

by conflating one thing with another as an explanation, you excuse the behavior. I've observed you doing that many times. It is the "infallible" nature of the Roman Catholic organization that lets it flout the laws of nations by covering up horrible crimes by its officials. And every priest is an official of the Catholic church. The hierarchy has covered up the crimes, hidden its officials from prosecution and done every thing it could to sweep massive child sex abuse under the carpet.

It is to be condemned for that, just as other organizations that do similar things are condemned. That it is a religious organization that pretends to teach moral values to its followers makes its behavior all the worse. Rather than punish the offenders in its ranks, it covers the problem over and hides it. It has been doing so for centuries. The organization is a criminal group that protects its own. It is no more than that, and is just like other such criminal organizations.

Personally, i think it should be dissolved, its assets liquidated, and the proceeds distributed to its victims and their later relatives. There are records. Secret records. Those should be investigated and the crimes identified, along with their victims, so they can receive some recompense for the harm done to them by the RCC.

How much would be enough to recompense the families of the children at the Magdalene Laundries, for example? What number would you put on that? It's not just the sexual abuse of children. It is so much more than that. It is the denial of appropriate medical care to women whose lives could have been saved, but who were denied the proper care. It goes on and on, the list of crimes.

How's that? Do you agree, or do you think they should just be forgiven and allowed to continue those evil behaviors?

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
62. If every organization that sheltered those who commit crimes were to be dissolved,
Fri Aug 31, 2018, 08:51 PM
Aug 2018

many school systems would be dissolved.
Many police forces would be dissolved.
The armed forces would be dissolved.
The Boy Scouts would be dissolved.

WhiteTara

(29,718 posts)
30. Is that what it was meant with
Thu Aug 30, 2018, 02:39 PM
Aug 2018

Suffer the little children unto me? Of all the odd things in the new testament, that is one of the oddest, in my opinion.

MineralMan

(146,317 posts)
31. Normally, that is taken to mean "allow" the children to
Thu Aug 30, 2018, 03:10 PM
Aug 2018

Last edited Thu Aug 30, 2018, 06:16 PM - Edit history (1)

come unto me. That is one of the meanings of the verb "to suffer." When women got the right to vote in the USA, they got suffrage, which meant they were "allowed" to vote. Same root meaning.

However, that's an old, little-used meaning, really. In the time of King James, back in 1611, when the King James translation was made, though, the "allow" meaning of "to suffer" was in common usage.

It's easily switched around, though, if you wish, to indicate that the children have to suffer at the hands of priests. Still, that's a distortion of the translation.

HopeAgain

(4,407 posts)
52. That's why I don't believe anyone speaks for God
Fri Aug 31, 2018, 02:58 PM
Aug 2018

People are just people, and institutions are human institutions whether it be in business, religion or the body politic.

MineralMan

(146,317 posts)
53. Nor do I, since I don't believe that any such deities exist.
Fri Aug 31, 2018, 03:00 PM
Aug 2018

However, there are enormous organizations that claim to speak for what they claim to be their deities. Are they not responsible for the harm they do, the suffering they cause, and the lives that have been lost in that cause? I say they are. I say they should be held to account, not in the eternal sense, but now, today, in real time.

HopeAgain

(4,407 posts)
61. Of course they should be held to account
Fri Aug 31, 2018, 05:44 PM
Aug 2018

Both ethically and legally. They should be taxed too, but ghat's another issue.

2naSalit

(86,647 posts)
57. ...
Fri Aug 31, 2018, 03:09 PM
Aug 2018







Look at Us... Trudell.

At times they were kind.
They were polite in their sophist-o-cation.
Smiling , but never too loudly.
Acting in civilized manner;
an illusion of gentleness always fighting to get their way.

While the people see,
the people know,
the people wait,
the people say,
the closing of your doors will never shut us out.
the closing of your doors can only shut you in.
We know the predator.
We see them feed on us.
We are aware, to starve the beast is our destiny.
The times they were kind,
they were polite,.
but never honest.

We see your technological society devour you before your very eyes.
We hear your anguished cries exhalting greed through progress.
While you seek material advances,
the sound of flowers dying,
carry messages through the wind,
trying to tell you about balance
and your safety.

But your minds are chained to your machines
and the strings dangling from your puppeteers’ hands.
Turning you, twisting you into forms and confusions
beyond your control.

Your mind for a job,
your mind for a TV,
your mind for a hairdryer,
you mind for consumption.

With your atom bombs,
your material bombs,
your drug bombs,
your racial bombs,
your class bombs,
your sexist bombs,
your ageist bombs
devastating,
your natural shelters.
Making you homeless on Earth.
Chasing you into illusions.
Fooling you.
Making you pretend
you can run away
from the ravishing of your spirit.

While the sound of flowers dying,
carry messages through the wind,
trying to tell you about balance
and your safety.

Trying to isolate us in a dimensions called loneliness.
Leading us into the trap.
Believe in their power,
but not in ourselves.
Piling us with guilt.
Always taking the blame.
Greed chasing out the balance.
Trying to isolate us in a dimension called loneliness.
Economic deities seizing power through illusions.
Created armies are justified.
Class systems are democracy.
God listens to war mongers' prayers.
Tyranny is here.
Divide and conquer.
Trying to isolate us in a dimension called loneliness.
Greed apparent.
Insecurity, the happiness companion.
Genocide conceived in sophist-o-cation.
Techno-logic material civilization,
a rationalization,
replacing a way to live.
Trying to isolate us in a dimension called loneliness.

To God,
we hope you don’t mind,
but we would like to talk to you.

There are some things we need to straighten out.
It’s about these Christians.
They claim to be from your nation.
But,
Man,
you should see the things they do.
All.
The.
Time.
Blaming it on you.
Manifest destiny,
genocide,
maximized profit,
sterilization,
raping the Earth,
lying,
taking more they need,
in all the forms of the greed.
We ask them, "Why?"
They say, "It’s God’s will".

Damn, God.
They make it so hard.
Remember Jesus?
Would you send him back to them.
Tell them not to kill him.
Rather, they should listen.
Stop abusing His name
and yours.
We do not mean to be disrespectful,
but you know how it is.
Our people have their own ways.
We never even heard of you until not long ago.
Your representatives spoke magnificent things of you.
which we were willing to believe.
But from the way they acted,
we know you and we,
were being deceived.

We do not mean you or your Christian children any bad.
But you all came to take all we had.
We have not seen you.
But we have heard so much.
It is time for you to decide what life is worth.
We already remember,
but maybe you forgot.

Look at us.
Look at us, we are of earth and water.
Look at them,it is the same.

Look at us, we are suffering all these years.
Look at them, they are connected.

Look at us we, are in pain.
Look at them, surprised at our anger.

Look at us we, are struggling to survive.
Look at them, expecting sorrow be benign.

Look at us, we are the ones called pagan.
Look at them, on their arrival.

Look at us, we are called subversive.
Look at them, descending from name-callers.

Look at us, we wept sadly in the long dark.
Look at them, hiding in techno-logic light.

Look at us, we bury the generations.
Look at them, inventing the body count.

Look at us, we are older than America.
Look at them, chasing a fountain of youth.

Look at us, we are embracing Earth.
Look at them, clutching to day.

Look at us, we are living in the generations.
Look at them, existing in jobs and debt.

Look at us, we have escaped many times.
Look at them, they cannot remember.

Look at us we, are healing.
Look at them, their medicine is patented.

Look at us, we are trying.
Look at them, what are they doing?

Look at us, we are Children of Earth.
Look at them, WHO ARE THEY!?



Emphasis added.




MineralMan

(146,317 posts)
58. For those who are unfamiliar with that poet:
Fri Aug 31, 2018, 03:14 PM
Aug 2018
John Trudell (February 15, 1946 – December 8, 2015) was a Native American author, poet, actor, musician, and political activist. He was the spokesperson for the United Indians of All Tribes' takeover of Alcatraz beginning in 1969, broadcasting as Radio Free Alcatraz. During most of the 1970s, he served as the chairman of the American Indian Movement, based in Minneapolis, Minnesota.

After his pregnant wife, three children and mother-in-law were killed in 1979 in a suspicious fire at the home of his parents-in-law on the Shoshone-Paiute Tribes Duck Valley Indian Reservation in Nevada, Trudell turned to writing, music and film as a second career. He acted in films in the 1990s. The documentary Trudell (2005) was made about him and his life as an activist and artist.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Trudell


Thanks for posting that!
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