Religion
Related: About this forumWhat the early church thought about God's gender
From the article:
To read more:
https://religionnews.com/2018/08/02/what-the-early-church-thought-about-gods-gender/
Attempts to debate the gender of the Creator are, in my view, mainly an attempt at anthropomorphizing the Creator in an attempt at understanding the Creator.
3Hotdogs
(12,390 posts)I'm Popeye, the Sailor Man."
Is Popeye God?"
The corollary: Josef Goebbels: "Hitler is lonely.
God is lonely.
God is like Hitler."
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)Love is blind
Ergo, Stevie Wonder is god.
Voltaire2
(13,054 posts)Popeye was a sweet potato.
MineralMan
(146,317 posts)"in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them." Genesis 1:27 KJV
The anthropomorphic view of the Judeo-Christian deity comes from Genesis. Why are you arguing about that?
Good day to you, sir.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)My argument is that humans, naturally, anthropomorphize many things in an attempt to understand them.
A good day to you also.
MineralMan
(146,317 posts)I'm going back to the origin story, which was recorded in writing long, long before that supposed quote.
It's all part of the same religion, you know. Which parts are wrong, guilliameb? Which parts are true?
You never seem willing to say what you think about that.
Is any of it actually true? I don't think you've answered that question, either.
Of course humans anthropomorphize. There's really no alternative. That has nothing to do with what is true and what is not.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)MineralMan
(146,317 posts)See, I'm not all that convinced by old folk tales compiled from oral tradition. I thought you knew that about me.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)sprinkleeninow
(20,250 posts)Mon Frère.
How do you like these apples?
Only contention.
If these hold that God-stuff is fabricated hooey we all made up, why dost these bother?
Love to you,
Bonne Bon 😍
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)Most of us have an answer.
sprinkleeninow
(20,250 posts)MineralMan
(146,317 posts)However their being convinced is evidence only of their mindsets, innit?
Bretton Garcia
(970 posts)But eventually to be sure, in the New Testament, a gentler more civil element enters in, at least with clerics, and Jesus.
Machismo? There's a famous theologian who claims that Jesus was a so called " homosexual wizard."
The New Testament tells us that the angels in heaven are neither male nor female.
So the Bible starts out with the Old Testament, and a very male, bullying, violent " God." But then it changes slightly in the New Testament. To a milder, gentler, somewhat less macho figure.
Jesus is a bit less of a toxic male, than God. But of course, Jesus has his own faults too. He himself likens himself and his followers to sly snakes or serpents.
bitterross
(4,066 posts)Serious question. Genesis 1:27 KJV says:
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
If God is a singular entity and he created "man" in his own image with two genders, then God must possess both genders.
I am reading "man" as mankind in the phrase "So God created man in his on image." I understand Hebrew does not have a gender-neutral pronoun such as 'it' so this makes the reading and translation of Hebrew to English interesting. Especially when accounting for the biases of the translators in the time of King James.
God possesses both genders.
Yes or No?
MineralMan
(146,317 posts)the answer to your last question is quite obviously no. Imaginary deities have only imaginary genders.
moriah
(8,311 posts)... at least if you assume the use of "man" vs "human" in translation came from patriarchal reflections in language construction.
Then again my poor Grandmother had to just finally say "Not all of the Bible is meant literally" after she took on the onerous task (and multi-generation family tradition due to a Catholic/Protestant marriage) of home Bible study instead of church attendance. It was sometime about when I was asking her about why there was a distinct contradiction between Gen 1 and 2, and the insane number of years people allegedly lived then.
My view is that the human mind has to label and box and categorize everything -- our wetware needs to box in a concept to understand it. But even the box we've made for "infinity" is pretty iffy. It's got a label, but we can't comprehend what we've put inside it. It takes macro- and microcosmic views of the universe from elementary particles to the observable universe to really start putting info in the box we call "life, the universe, and everything", and even then it's usually the series of logarithmic slideshow images that get filed. It about maxes out our processor, but trying to unbox and understand infinity creates a divide by zero.
And so does trying to box something defined by the concepts of "infinity" and "eternal" and "omnipresent".
Poor Granny.
Voltaire2
(13,054 posts)Gender seems explicit.
Mariana
(14,858 posts)Voltaire2
(13,054 posts)Mariana
(14,858 posts)Voltaire2
(13,054 posts)Seems sort of necrophiliac.
Mariana
(14,858 posts)Nevertheless, that is what the story says, and it clearly indicates that the Holy Spirit is male.
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)It's not as if Mary had the option to decline consent.
Bretton Garcia
(970 posts)So there does seem to be some kind of odd gender thing going on.
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)Then again, the morning Jesus was arrested, they found him with a nude young boy. So for all we know the rape of children is as biblical as it gets.
Bretton Garcia
(970 posts)guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)as expressed in the Bible.
Voltaire2
(13,054 posts)Now where are the references in your books of ancient wisdom where your gods are explicitly female?
Ill wait.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)because the answers to your question are there.
Voltaire2
(13,054 posts)Figures. Really not hard to figure out that a religion that in its mainstream christian version up until the early 20th century generally treated women as chattel, that still does in its Islamic version and in some of its orthodox and fundamentalist jewish and christian sects, has a rather clear gender identify for its gods: male. The article is bullshit apologetics.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)you could actually read the article. Your previous question to me suggests that you stopped at the title.
Voltaire2
(13,054 posts)guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)Voltaire2
(13,054 posts)Bretton Garcia
(970 posts)Later, as civilization developed,.a more forgiviing, gentler, clerical/motherly model developed; a gentler, slightly "effeminite" son.
But that more androgynous, Platonic model, and the vague, genderless Being, was probably a late, not earlier,. development.
Macho male warriors, chieftains, probably go way back, to man's animal origins. Gentler " being" gods, "I am" gods, spirits,. probably came in later.
As civilizations developed
trotsky
(49,533 posts)I'll answer that: YOU DON'T.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)How can you know?
marylandblue
(12,344 posts)guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)you think that you are.
marylandblue
(12,344 posts)Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)It simply perverts the original meaning by pretending something else is equivalent when its not. The same goes for your signature line.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)does not negate the point.
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)trotsky
(49,533 posts)In your own trademark dishonest way.
As many other ucc churches do, go with creator, Christ and holy ghost. And my wife, the minister, has a compelling argument that the holy spirit is actually feminine.
blur256
(979 posts)Its actially Christ and not son. Very gender neutral which I appreciate.
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)The author of the article you posted didn't originate this same idea as it's been around for a long time. One thing the article fails to mention is this interpretation of Exodus 3:14 is far from a consensus view among biblical scholars. Furthermore it originated in oral tradition for centuries and nobody knows for sure how the original Hebrew words would have been pronounced and translation errors are all but assured.
The very best part of this mental masturbation exercise is you are actually trying to make sense out of what a mythological talking plant said.
marylandblue
(12,344 posts)But 99.9% of the time, the God of the Bible is clearly male.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)marylandblue
(12,344 posts)guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)My cherry trees had a large crop of cherries this year so I was indeed a cherry picker.
marylandblue
(12,344 posts)guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)And they are delicious eaten uncooked or cooked.
Thank you.
Mariana
(14,858 posts)the many, many references that indicate God is male.
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)Voltaire2
(13,054 posts)You didn't stone your cow to death for fucking some random bull.
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)in however many forms gender might take, but the Creator is not limited or confined by gender.
Voltaire2
(13,054 posts)Also how exactly did your gods create gender?
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)trotsky
(49,533 posts)You need to stop stating your religious beliefs as if they were fact. They are not, and never will be.
Bretton Garcia
(970 posts).,.. I suspect,.probably come from Heraclitus,.c. 500 BCE. Who championed a genderness " logos" or "word" "reason"ableness. Which occupied., consisted of,.the entire universe; all things, as the "One."
This giant Being was not human-like. But included probably the entire universe. If it had a character,.it was the logos word or" logic" or reason. That infused the universe.
This was an idea, a metaphysics, that was religiously followed for a while. Though it had a strong element of Reason in it. Later French existentialists were probably derived from it.
But this element in the Bible, this idea of God, was a bit anomalous. It was not so strongly based on human beings, men and women. But borrowed more from Greek philosophy, metaphysics, than more purely human or Jewish - or even religious? - sources,.models.
As such, it offers a small but interesting halfway house between Christianity, and rationalism, atheism.
It is my hope that Guil and other liberal Christians will one day progress beyond religion; to this liberal, rational,.or existential state of being.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)Your response was very thought provoking. Thank you for it.
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)More accurately they are tying themselves into a translation knot just trying to find one example of a neutral reference.
The idea we can derive exact meaning from a 7,000 yr old oral tradition is laughable at best. I suppose trying to extrapolate modern meanings out of ancient texts yields diminishing returns and demands an increasingly higher level of desperation.
MineralMan
(146,317 posts)"And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God." LUV
Pretty clear, that. Even God's ghost is male.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,321 posts)" God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness."
The author of this thing doesn't understand the difference between a claim, a metaphor and a simile. He writes:
"In the oracles of the eighth century prophet Isaiah, God is described as a woman in labor and a mother comforting her children."
Look at the linked bible verse, and you find:
"For a long time I have held my peace,
I have kept still and restrained myself;
now I will cry out like a woman in labor,
I will gasp and pant."
Preceding verse:
"The Lord goes forth like a soldier,
like a warrior he stirs up his fury;
he cries out, he shouts aloud,
he shows himself mighty against his foes."
This is not someone we should be reading about what words mean, if he can't recognise a simile.
Mariana
(14,858 posts)I think he's just dishonest, like most apologists.
Voltaire2
(13,054 posts)something like look its all made up nonsense so lets at least make it less oppressively patriarchal nonsense .
sprinkleeninow
(20,250 posts)It's all made up hooey, so why is anyone bothering about it.
Just sayin'.....
Mariana
(14,858 posts)sprinkleeninow
(20,250 posts)cheeky post. 🙂
'Some o' them people.'
These pervert the intent of the 'message', if you will.
You do have the understanding that there are many/enough believers that are righteously incensed regarding shall we say 'charlatans' that have literally ruined the Christian faith/message.
& 😍
Mariana
(14,858 posts)and all those other people are doing it wrong. Even so, there are an awful lot of those other people, and the actions they take based on their interpretation of Christianity negatively affect us all.
sprinkleeninow
(20,250 posts)Nevertheless, 😘.
sprinkleeninow
(20,250 posts)They took a collection [tithe] and gave it to one of the apostles to distribute to those in need.
Simple, not complicated. It's become in some circles a religion of power points, committees and such.
marylandblue
(12,344 posts)Is that the one where they try to kill heretics by boring them to death?
sprinkleeninow
(20,250 posts)It'll have that clinical effect on a body.
Dispassionate.
Mariana
(14,858 posts)A man and wife sold their land and gave some of the money to the Apostles, and kept some back for themselves. Peter demanded to know if they had turned over the whole amount. They didn't tell him the truth, and they were both killed. Afterward, according to verse 11, "Great fear seized the whole church and all who heard about these events." Well, I guess so. If anything like the events in this story really happened, then we see that it didn't take long at all for the very first Christian leaders to use threats of violence to keep people in line.
sprinkleeninow
(20,250 posts)These two knew better and deliberately lied in keeping a portion of their pledged offering for themselves. The apostles didn't 'kill' them. If the story is literally received, they keeled over themselves/croaked themselves by their foolish submission to the lying wiles of the enemy.
There are modern day stories regarding 'men of the cloth' who were supernaturally affected trying to serve a church service. In a not good way.
Years ago, I witnessed a 'sign' during one Feastday of the Resurrection service. It had to do with the Paschal candle. 'Some' would pooh-pooh it with a 'reasonable' explanation.
One can grieve the Holy Spirit, lie to the Holy Spirit, employ deception in relations with the Holy Spirit, resist the Holy Spirit. The unpardonable sin is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Which may to a lesser degree be committed today. But who knows.
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)sprinkleeninow
(20,250 posts)I yam so impressed. 🙄
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)cheeky post. 🙂
'Some o' them people.'
Just sayin'
sprinkleeninow
(20,250 posts)Just sayin'. 🆗❓
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)sprinkleeninow
(20,250 posts)Last edited Mon Aug 6, 2018, 03:32 AM - Edit history (1)
"The LOVE of $$ is the root of all evil, not money alone by itself."
Not guilty of money idolatry, but I don't mind having it. Nobody doesn't like it. Excepting the monastic who may have thoughts about it occasionally and then does repentance.
It's been real! The man of the house 🤣 is home and he's buggin' me. He still don't know I rule the rooost. 😁
See ya l8r, bye....
MineralMan
(146,317 posts)If that were not so, things would be going a lot better for a lot of people. Instead, we have tons of bigotry and ugliness attached to a guy who may have lived and died a couple thousand years ago.
So, was Jesus a charlatan? Impossible to say, this long after that time.
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)But one can draw reasonable conclusions from the available information. If one comes to the perfectly reasonable conclusion Jesus wasn't what he claimed, that makes him a charlatan.
marylandblue
(12,344 posts)Last edited Sat Aug 4, 2018, 04:25 PM - Edit history (1)
With Jesus, we have hearsay and rumors that were written down long after the fact. We don't know if he said a single one of the words attributed to him. If he did say some of them, his followers don't seem to agree on what they meant.
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)There's no evidence for that even in the bible. Regardless of whether it's claimed or attributed, the confirming evidence in both cases is exactly the same.
MineralMan
(146,317 posts)anything having to do with the one called Jesus, it's hard to characterize him at all. The story we know is a concocted one, that may have almost nothing to do with reality.
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)Immediately after his suicide-by-cop, he was martyred by a growing list of fundies and other associated nutbags. Had it not been for the bad press he received for his acts of child molestation he very well could have been the next Jesus.
MineralMan
(146,317 posts)we know precious little about the Jesus of millennia ago. Nothing written was written during the time he was alive, and the official story, as related in the Gospels, was edited and curated heavily by the Roman church.
I have no reason to believe that it all happened as written. In fact, i doubt that very much. Christianity is a marvel of early and continuing marketing.
sprinkleeninow
(20,250 posts)There will be no next jesus.
The One Who will appear in His Second and Final 'epiphany'/manifestation will be
He Who Is.
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)Sorry to burst your bubble, but the expiration date on that prophecy has long since expired
26 At that time people will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. 27 And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens.
28 Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 29 Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that it[a] is near, right at the door. 30 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)Just sayin'
sprinkleeninow
(20,250 posts)Uproarious, I say. Knee-slappin'.
Just sayin'....
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)sprinkleeninow
(20,250 posts)existing.
The Orthodox have an Ikon 'Pantocrator'. In the nimbus/halo/glory is the wording:
ό ώ ?
'Who Is' [Who Has Being]
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)just as every aspect of creation is an aspect and a reflection of the Creator.
sprinkleeninow
(20,250 posts)Hard understanding/processing for some. To be expected. That's not a put-down. Just reality.
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)sprinkleeninow
(20,250 posts)Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)Just sayin'
Quod grātīs asseritur, grātīs negātur.
sprinkleeninow
(20,250 posts)Who recently tried to back his way out of saying jerky stuff in Helsinki. You copy?
Double negative FAIL.
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)sprinkleeninow
(20,250 posts)guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)Quod grātīs asseritur, grātīs negātur.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)and it appeared.
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)marylandblue
(12,344 posts)guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)marylandblue
(12,344 posts)guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)We could be sharing a delusion.
Or, your response might be a part of my personal delusion.
marylandblue
(12,344 posts)If you thought it was delusion, you would be asking yourself the question, not the delusion. Asking a question implies an answerer. So the question is actually its own answer.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)But this is quite far from questions of gender and the Creator.
marylandblue
(12,344 posts)Any more than you believe there is no Creator or that the Creator has gender.
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)Very telling that.
Voltaire2
(13,054 posts)trotsky
(49,533 posts)Not like that's ever stopped you from telling everyone else anyway.
CrispyQ
(36,478 posts)I was taught that God had no gender. When I asked in Confirmation, why we didn't have a special pronoun for God, the pastor didn't have an answer. Then I said, "There's God the Father & God the Son & God the Holy Ghost. Where are the women in this religion?" The pastor then started naming all the female characters in the Bible, like I wasn't smart enough to discern the difference between a female human & a female deity. It was one of my first feminist experiences & it turned me off of religion ever since.
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)Oh. Right.
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)After a few millennia or so of being passed around from countless generations of superstitious illiterates it was eventually written down, lost, and re-scribed dog knows how many times. During this span of several thousand years the language changed dramatically and thousands of translation errors introduced at every step of the process.
Yet some would have you believe they can derive subtle linguistic original meanings from all this, even though it completely contradicts everything else we have about how those original people interpreted it.
Meanwhile all of this betrays a far simpler and far more reasonable explanation, which is man created god in his own image.
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)It only took them a single generation to warm up to record keeping.
Bretton Garcia
(970 posts)Five generations
MineralMan
(146,317 posts)There are four living generations in my family. My parents are the oldest, at 94. The youngest of the fourth generation is 5 years old. If my parents live another couple of years, the oldest of the fourth generation is likely to produce a great-great grandchild, based on her current activities.
That would be five generations. Still, a hundred years and change following the supposed birth of the supposed Messiah is a long time not to have any surviving written records. Plus, you'd think that such writings would be treated as priceless treasures and preserved by followers of that religion.
The paucity of written records is evidence of something, but not of the truth of the stories, really. In 150 years, many things can be concocted. If another 150 years passes before an official canon of the scripture is pieced together, who knows whether it bears any similarity to the real story?
I'd guess not.
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)...and working under the assumption the suggested authorship dates of the gospels are generally correct.
But that's neither here nor there. "The Early Church" is usually defined as anything and everything between the 33 CE and 375 CE.
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)Which makes it all that more curious as to why it took Christians so long to embrace literacy.
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)Why write shit down when the world's just gonna end in a few years anyway?
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)Hardly a week goes by without hearing about the impending rapture.
sprinkleeninow
(20,250 posts)go roll with it.
I'm on one road, you're on another. Shall the twain meet? Not impossible and not improbable.
Be well.
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)I get that some feel the need to pretend this is so to combat their own doubts, but as with other things a strong desire to want something to be true doesn't make it true.
So we aren't on two different roads. To borrow your own analogy it's more like you are in a toy car imagining yourself traveling on a road and I opted out of playtime.
Voltaire2
(13,054 posts)Are any of them made up?
sprinkleeninow
(20,250 posts)This be my last posting due to 'some' people wearing me down. A tad weary, but I haven't fainted as yet.
Regardless, love y'all...
MineralMan
(146,317 posts)sprinkleeninow
(20,250 posts)I don't believe it matters if I go. And I don't feel you would care. You said what you did with frivolity? Mb I'm wrong.
Either way, it's no matter.