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guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
Fri Aug 3, 2018, 02:17 PM Aug 2018

What the early church thought about God's gender

From the article:

Perhaps one of the most remarkable things ever said about God in the Hebrew Bible occurs in Exodus 3 when Moses first encounters the deity and asks for its name. In verse 14, God responds, “I am who I am,” which is simply a mixture of “to be” verbs in Hebrew without any specific reference to gender. If anything, the book of Exodus is clear that God is simply “being,” which echoes later Christian doctrine that God is spirit.


To read more:

https://religionnews.com/2018/08/02/what-the-early-church-thought-about-gods-gender/

Attempts to debate the gender of the Creator are, in my view, mainly an attempt at anthropomorphizing the Creator in an attempt at understanding the Creator.
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What the early church thought about God's gender (Original Post) guillaumeb Aug 2018 OP
That's what Popeye said. "I am what I am and that's all what I am. 3Hotdogs Aug 2018 #1
God is love Major Nikon Aug 2018 #9
No, I Yam What I Yam. Voltaire2 Aug 2018 #12
"So God created man in his own image," MineralMan Aug 2018 #2
I am who I am. guillaumeb Aug 2018 #3
See, that was Jesus who is purported to have said that. MineralMan Aug 2018 #4
God replied to Moses, "I Am Who I Am. Say this to the people of Israel: I Am has sent me to you." guillaumeb Aug 2018 #5
Was that before god mooned Moses or after? MineralMan Aug 2018 #6
Some of us are convinced. eom guillaumeb Aug 2018 #21
Guillaume, sprinkleeninow Aug 2018 #28
That is a question that only those who respond can answer. guillaumeb Aug 2018 #67
😘 sprinkleeninow Aug 2018 #74
So it appears. MineralMan Aug 2018 #34
God starts out as a very male, rough bullying "king'" Bretton Garcia Aug 2018 #32
If God is a singular entity then does Gen. 1:27 mean God's an "it?" bitterross Aug 2018 #27
Since I do not believe that any deities exist at all, MineralMan Aug 2018 #33
That verse still leaves God's described gender identity somewhat ambiguous... moriah Aug 2018 #136
"God, the father, the son, and the Holy Ghost". Voltaire2 Aug 2018 #7
Literalist. nt. Mariana Aug 2018 #8
Well honestly who knows wtf gender a Holy Ghost is? Voltaire2 Aug 2018 #10
The Holy Ghost is male. It impregnated Mary. nt. Mariana Aug 2018 #11
Series? Voltaire2 Aug 2018 #13
I agree, it's creepy as hell. Mariana Aug 2018 #14
Yes, and it was rape or at the very least sexual coercion Major Nikon Aug 2018 #16
But priests seem to like sex with girls or boys too. Bretton Garcia Aug 2018 #59
Hickabee pretends to be man of Jesus, but palls around with child rapists, so go figure. Major Nikon Aug 2018 #60
"Let the children come to me" said Jesus. Bretton Garcia Aug 2018 #65
Aspects of the Creator, guillaumeb Aug 2018 #22
Explicitly male. Voltaire2 Aug 2018 #25
I would suggest that you read the article, guillaumeb Aug 2018 #66
So you've got nothing. Voltaire2 Aug 2018 #69
Rather than continue with your "observations", guillaumeb Aug 2018 #71
Or you could cite the female gender references to your gods in your ancient books of nonsense. Voltaire2 Aug 2018 #72
Have fun with your reading. eom guillaumeb Aug 2018 #73
See post 69. Voltaire2 Aug 2018 #81
The original model for God was probably a very male, bullying king or " lord" Bretton Garcia Aug 2018 #97
How do you know if your bible makes truthful claims? trotsky Aug 2018 #100
Do you exist? guillaumeb Aug 2018 #116
I think therefore I am. marylandblue Aug 2018 #118
Alternatively, guillaumeb Aug 2018 #120
Same thing marylandblue Aug 2018 #121
Your alternative is gibberish compared to the original Major Nikon Aug 2018 #128
Because you do not understand the point guillaumeb Aug 2018 #137
Neither does your canned response validate it Major Nikon Aug 2018 #138
Thank you for admitting you have no idea. trotsky Aug 2018 #132
Our church blur256 Aug 2018 #53
Oops edited that blur256 Aug 2018 #54
In other words, man created god in his image Major Nikon Aug 2018 #15
They are cherry picking a few neutral or feminine references marylandblue Aug 2018 #17
I am who I am implies no gender. eom guillaumeb Aug 2018 #23
cherry picker marylandblue Aug 2018 #24
A very nice picture. guillaumeb Aug 2018 #68
Enjoy your cherries, I hope they are sweet. marylandblue Aug 2018 #78
They are pie cherries, not sweet at all. guillaumeb Aug 2018 #79
So it does not contradict in the least Mariana Aug 2018 #56
Yes, but at least it makes it easier to forget that women in the bible were treated like livestock Major Nikon Aug 2018 #61
worse than livestock. Voltaire2 Aug 2018 #70
You also didn't shame your livestock due to their bodily functions Major Nikon Aug 2018 #84
The Creator created gender, guillaumeb Aug 2018 #77
How do you know that? Voltaire2 Aug 2018 #80
Know? guillaumeb Aug 2018 #90
... Major Nikon Aug 2018 #93
You can't prove that Major Nikon Aug 2018 #83
Wholly unsupported claim. trotsky Aug 2018 #99
The genderless Being, the Is or "Am" idea of God. .. Bretton Garcia Aug 2018 #101
I have hopes also. guillaumeb Aug 2018 #117
It's worse than that Major Nikon Aug 2018 #38
Luke 1:35 MineralMan Aug 2018 #18
In English translations, "he" for "God" appears as early as Genesis 1:4 muriel_volestrangler Aug 2018 #19
I suspect the author understands what a simile is. Mariana Aug 2018 #20
If they were honest they would have to say Voltaire2 Aug 2018 #26
Here's me being 'honest'. sprinkleeninow Aug 2018 #29
Whether or not it's all made up hooey Mariana Aug 2018 #30
Now how did I know/expect that to be the forthcoming response after my sprinkleeninow Aug 2018 #31
Naturally, you believe that you are right Mariana Aug 2018 #35
Say whut? sprinkleeninow Aug 2018 #40
Supposedly the First 'Christians' met with one another in homes for worship and fellowship. sprinkleeninow Aug 2018 #42
A religion of powerpoints? marylandblue Aug 2018 #44
Hay you! 😉 sprinkleeninow Aug 2018 #45
In the Book of Acts, chapter 5 Mariana Aug 2018 #62
This appears to be sprinkleeninow Aug 2018 #63
Jesus wasn't a charlatan? Major Nikon Aug 2018 #37
Think that's cute? sprinkleeninow Aug 2018 #41
Now how did I know/expect that to be the forthcoming response after my Major Nikon Aug 2018 #46
Quit nabbing my lines! They're not easily rendered. 😊 sprinkleeninow Aug 2018 #49
I'll have my people contact your people about the royalty arrangements Major Nikon Aug 2018 #50
Sounds like a plan. I could use the 💰💰💰. 🤑 sprinkleeninow Aug 2018 #55
Well, Christianity has precious little to do with Jesus, really. MineralMan Aug 2018 #43
It's also impossible to say whether or not David Koresh was a god as he also claimed Major Nikon Aug 2018 #47
Difference is, we know exactly what David Koresh said and did marylandblue Aug 2018 #48
We don't know Jesus even claimed divinity Major Nikon Aug 2018 #51
Well, since there is no reliable record of MineralMan Aug 2018 #57
I think the parallels with Koresh are interesting Major Nikon Aug 2018 #58
Yes. There are definitely similarities. However, MineralMan Aug 2018 #64
The next jesus in your estimation. sprinkleeninow Aug 2018 #86
Your estimation has already been cold hard busted Major Nikon Aug 2018 #88
Personally I think any story with a talking plant is amusing Major Nikon Aug 2018 #36
You should perhaps think of getting a gig at The Laugh Factory. sprinkleeninow Aug 2018 #39
With Jay Leno out of work, the timing doesn't seem right Major Nikon Aug 2018 #52
Yes, this is correct. God responding with an answer of sprinkleeninow Aug 2018 #75
And concepts of gender are a part of the Creator, guillaumeb Aug 2018 #76
Yes, this.👏 sprinkleeninow Aug 2018 #82
You can't prove that Major Nikon Aug 2018 #85
You can't not prove that. sprinkleeninow Aug 2018 #87
You are stealing Gil's tired worn out line Major Nikon Aug 2018 #89
So you say. I borrowed this double negative technique from the mango coloured oval office occupant. sprinkleeninow Aug 2018 #95
No Major Nikon Aug 2018 #104
P.S. I am not aware of tired worn out lines of which you speak. no text sprinkleeninow Aug 2018 #96
Prove that you exist outside of my imagination. eom guillaumeb Aug 2018 #91
I feel no obligation to prove or disprove what anyone else asserts without evidence Major Nikon Aug 2018 #92
I imagined a response, guillaumeb Aug 2018 #115
I imagined a non-response and it appeared Major Nikon Aug 2018 #119
Who did you ask to prove it? marylandblue Aug 2018 #94
#85 guillaumeb Aug 2018 #122
Proving his existence. marylandblue Aug 2018 #123
Not necessarily. guillaumeb Aug 2018 #124
You are behaving as if you believe you are speaking to real people marylandblue Aug 2018 #125
My behavior, the conversations at DU, might be an aspect of my own delusion. guillaumeb Aug 2018 #126
They might be, but you do not believe it to be so marylandblue Aug 2018 #127
And yet you brought it up anyway Major Nikon Aug 2018 #129
Idealism is objective nonsense. Voltaire2 Aug 2018 #130
You have absolutely no idea, and you never will. trotsky Aug 2018 #98
Man created God to control woman. So of course man made God a man. CrispyQ Aug 2018 #102
If only they'd written it down. Act_of_Reparation Aug 2018 #103
They did, eventually Major Nikon Aug 2018 #105
I mean in reference to the early church. Act_of_Reparation Aug 2018 #106
The earliest surviving gospel manuscript 150 AD. Bretton Garcia Aug 2018 #108
Yup. MineralMan Aug 2018 #109
I'm being generous... Act_of_Reparation Aug 2018 #110
Genesis was in written form at least a millennium before Christ Major Nikon Aug 2018 #112
It makes sense if Christianity was an apocalyptic cult. Act_of_Reparation Aug 2018 #113
Still is Major Nikon Aug 2018 #114
If your 'belief' is that man made God up to suit himself, then, yeah, sprinkleeninow Aug 2018 #107
Rejection of belief isn't a belief Major Nikon Aug 2018 #111
There are lots of gods. Voltaire2 Aug 2018 #131
Oh, my DOG. sprinkleeninow Aug 2018 #133
Say it ain't so, Joe...Say it ain't so! MineralMan Aug 2018 #134
Saying this with hesitancy: sprinkleeninow Aug 2018 #135

3Hotdogs

(12,390 posts)
1. That's what Popeye said. "I am what I am and that's all what I am.
Fri Aug 3, 2018, 02:28 PM
Aug 2018

I'm Popeye, the Sailor Man."

Is Popeye God?"


The corollary: Josef Goebbels: "Hitler is lonely.
God is lonely.
God is like Hitler."

MineralMan

(146,317 posts)
2. "So God created man in his own image,"
Fri Aug 3, 2018, 03:01 PM
Aug 2018

"in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them." Genesis 1:27 KJV

The anthropomorphic view of the Judeo-Christian deity comes from Genesis. Why are you arguing about that?

Good day to you, sir.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
3. I am who I am.
Fri Aug 3, 2018, 03:21 PM
Aug 2018

My argument is that humans, naturally, anthropomorphize many things in an attempt to understand them.

A good day to you also.

MineralMan

(146,317 posts)
4. See, that was Jesus who is purported to have said that.
Fri Aug 3, 2018, 03:26 PM
Aug 2018

I'm going back to the origin story, which was recorded in writing long, long before that supposed quote.

It's all part of the same religion, you know. Which parts are wrong, guilliameb? Which parts are true?

You never seem willing to say what you think about that.

Is any of it actually true? I don't think you've answered that question, either.

Of course humans anthropomorphize. There's really no alternative. That has nothing to do with what is true and what is not.

MineralMan

(146,317 posts)
6. Was that before god mooned Moses or after?
Fri Aug 3, 2018, 03:39 PM
Aug 2018

See, I'm not all that convinced by old folk tales compiled from oral tradition. I thought you knew that about me.

sprinkleeninow

(20,250 posts)
28. Guillaume,
Sat Aug 4, 2018, 01:07 AM
Aug 2018

Mon Frère.

How do you like these apples?

Only contention.

If these hold that God-stuff is fabricated hooey we all made up, why dost these bother?

Love to you,
Bonne Bon 😍

Bretton Garcia

(970 posts)
32. God starts out as a very male, rough bullying "king'"
Sat Aug 4, 2018, 05:05 AM
Aug 2018

But eventually to be sure, in the New Testament, a gentler more civil element enters in, at least with clerics, and Jesus.

Machismo? There's a famous theologian who claims that Jesus was a so called " homosexual wizard."

The New Testament tells us that the angels in heaven are neither male nor female.

So the Bible starts out with the Old Testament, and a very male, bullying, violent " God." But then it changes slightly in the New Testament. To a milder, gentler, somewhat less macho figure.

Jesus is a bit less of a toxic male, than God. But of course, Jesus has his own faults too. He himself likens himself and his followers to sly snakes or serpents.

 

bitterross

(4,066 posts)
27. If God is a singular entity then does Gen. 1:27 mean God's an "it?"
Fri Aug 3, 2018, 11:04 PM
Aug 2018

Serious question. Genesis 1:27 KJV says:

So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.


If God is a singular entity and he created "man" in his own image with two genders, then God must possess both genders.

I am reading "man" as mankind in the phrase "So God created man in his on image." I understand Hebrew does not have a gender-neutral pronoun such as 'it' so this makes the reading and translation of Hebrew to English interesting. Especially when accounting for the biases of the translators in the time of King James.

God possesses both genders.
Yes or No?

MineralMan

(146,317 posts)
33. Since I do not believe that any deities exist at all,
Sat Aug 4, 2018, 09:20 AM
Aug 2018

the answer to your last question is quite obviously no. Imaginary deities have only imaginary genders.

moriah

(8,311 posts)
136. That verse still leaves God's described gender identity somewhat ambiguous...
Thu Aug 9, 2018, 12:12 AM
Aug 2018

... at least if you assume the use of "man" vs "human" in translation came from patriarchal reflections in language construction.

Then again my poor Grandmother had to just finally say "Not all of the Bible is meant literally" after she took on the onerous task (and multi-generation family tradition due to a Catholic/Protestant marriage) of home Bible study instead of church attendance. It was sometime about when I was asking her about why there was a distinct contradiction between Gen 1 and 2, and the insane number of years people allegedly lived then.

My view is that the human mind has to label and box and categorize everything -- our wetware needs to box in a concept to understand it. But even the box we've made for "infinity" is pretty iffy. It's got a label, but we can't comprehend what we've put inside it. It takes macro- and microcosmic views of the universe from elementary particles to the observable universe to really start putting info in the box we call "life, the universe, and everything", and even then it's usually the series of logarithmic slideshow images that get filed. It about maxes out our processor, but trying to unbox and understand infinity creates a divide by zero.

And so does trying to box something defined by the concepts of "infinity" and "eternal" and "omnipresent".

Poor Granny.

Mariana

(14,858 posts)
14. I agree, it's creepy as hell.
Fri Aug 3, 2018, 04:48 PM
Aug 2018

Nevertheless, that is what the story says, and it clearly indicates that the Holy Spirit is male.

Major Nikon

(36,827 posts)
16. Yes, and it was rape or at the very least sexual coercion
Fri Aug 3, 2018, 05:14 PM
Aug 2018

It's not as if Mary had the option to decline consent.

Bretton Garcia

(970 posts)
59. But priests seem to like sex with girls or boys too.
Sat Aug 4, 2018, 11:28 PM
Aug 2018

So there does seem to be some kind of odd gender thing going on.

Major Nikon

(36,827 posts)
60. Hickabee pretends to be man of Jesus, but palls around with child rapists, so go figure.
Sat Aug 4, 2018, 11:41 PM
Aug 2018


Then again, the morning Jesus was arrested, they found him with a nude young boy. So for all we know the rape of children is as biblical as it gets.





Voltaire2

(13,054 posts)
25. Explicitly male.
Fri Aug 3, 2018, 10:42 PM
Aug 2018

Now where are the references in your books of ancient “wisdom” where your gods are explicitly female?

I’ll wait.

Voltaire2

(13,054 posts)
69. So you've got nothing.
Sun Aug 5, 2018, 05:16 PM
Aug 2018

Figures. Really not hard to figure out that a religion that in its mainstream christian version up until the early 20th century generally treated women as chattel, that still does in its Islamic version and in some of its orthodox and fundamentalist jewish and christian sects, has a rather clear gender identify for its gods: male. The article is bullshit apologetics.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
71. Rather than continue with your "observations",
Sun Aug 5, 2018, 05:18 PM
Aug 2018

you could actually read the article. Your previous question to me suggests that you stopped at the title.

Bretton Garcia

(970 posts)
97. The original model for God was probably a very male, bullying king or " lord"
Mon Aug 6, 2018, 04:15 AM
Aug 2018

Later, as civilization developed,.a more forgiviing, gentler, clerical/motherly model developed; a gentler, slightly "effeminite" son.

But that more androgynous, Platonic model, and the vague, genderless Being, was probably a late, not earlier,. development.

Macho male warriors, chieftains, probably go way back, to man's animal origins. Gentler " being" gods, "I am" gods, spirits,. probably came in later.
As civilizations developed

Major Nikon

(36,827 posts)
128. Your alternative is gibberish compared to the original
Tue Aug 7, 2018, 09:36 PM
Aug 2018

It simply perverts the original meaning by pretending something else is equivalent when it’s not. The same goes for your signature line.

blur256

(979 posts)
53. Our church
Sat Aug 4, 2018, 04:27 PM
Aug 2018

As many other ucc churches do, go with creator, Christ and holy ghost. And my wife, the minister, has a compelling argument that the holy spirit is actually feminine.

Major Nikon

(36,827 posts)
15. In other words, man created god in his image
Fri Aug 3, 2018, 05:12 PM
Aug 2018

The author of the article you posted didn't originate this same idea as it's been around for a long time. One thing the article fails to mention is this interpretation of Exodus 3:14 is far from a consensus view among biblical scholars. Furthermore it originated in oral tradition for centuries and nobody knows for sure how the original Hebrew words would have been pronounced and translation errors are all but assured.

The very best part of this mental masturbation exercise is you are actually trying to make sense out of what a mythological talking plant said.

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
17. They are cherry picking a few neutral or feminine references
Fri Aug 3, 2018, 05:15 PM
Aug 2018

But 99.9% of the time, the God of the Bible is clearly male.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
68. A very nice picture.
Sun Aug 5, 2018, 05:13 PM
Aug 2018

My cherry trees had a large crop of cherries this year so I was indeed a cherry picker.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
77. The Creator created gender,
Sun Aug 5, 2018, 06:06 PM
Aug 2018

in however many forms gender might take, but the Creator is not limited or confined by gender.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
99. Wholly unsupported claim.
Mon Aug 6, 2018, 08:39 AM
Aug 2018

You need to stop stating your religious beliefs as if they were fact. They are not, and never will be.

Bretton Garcia

(970 posts)
101. The genderless Being, the Is or "Am" idea of God. ..
Mon Aug 6, 2018, 09:07 AM
Aug 2018

.,.. I suspect,.probably come from Heraclitus,.c. 500 BCE. Who championed a genderness " logos" or "word" "reason"ableness. Which occupied., consisted of,.the entire universe; all things, as the "One."

This giant Being was not human-like. But included probably the entire universe. If it had a character,.it was the logos word or" logic" or reason. That infused the universe.

This was an idea, a metaphysics, that was religiously followed for a while. Though it had a strong element of Reason in it. Later French existentialists were probably derived from it.

But this element in the Bible, this idea of God, was a bit anomalous. It was not so strongly based on human beings, men and women. But borrowed more from Greek philosophy, metaphysics, than more purely human or Jewish - or even religious? - sources,.models.

As such, it offers a small but interesting halfway house between Christianity, and rationalism, atheism.

It is my hope that Guil and other liberal Christians will one day progress beyond religion; to this liberal, rational,.or existential state of being.

Major Nikon

(36,827 posts)
38. It's worse than that
Sat Aug 4, 2018, 12:56 PM
Aug 2018

More accurately they are tying themselves into a translation knot just trying to find one example of a neutral reference.

The idea we can derive exact meaning from a 7,000 yr old oral tradition is laughable at best. I suppose trying to extrapolate modern meanings out of ancient texts yields diminishing returns and demands an increasingly higher level of desperation.

MineralMan

(146,317 posts)
18. Luke 1:35
Fri Aug 3, 2018, 05:25 PM
Aug 2018

"And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God." LUV

Pretty clear, that. Even God's ghost is male.

muriel_volestrangler

(101,321 posts)
19. In English translations, "he" for "God" appears as early as Genesis 1:4
Fri Aug 3, 2018, 07:12 PM
Aug 2018

" God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness."

The author of this thing doesn't understand the difference between a claim, a metaphor and a simile. He writes:

"In the oracles of the eighth century prophet Isaiah, God is described as a woman in labor and a mother comforting her children."

Look at the linked bible verse, and you find:

"For a long time I have held my peace,
I have kept still and restrained myself;
now I will cry out like a woman in labor,
I will gasp and pant."

Preceding verse:

"The Lord goes forth like a soldier,
like a warrior he stirs up his fury;
he cries out, he shouts aloud,
he shows himself mighty against his foes."

This is not someone we should be reading about what words mean, if he can't recognise a simile.

Voltaire2

(13,054 posts)
26. If they were honest they would have to say
Fri Aug 3, 2018, 10:45 PM
Aug 2018

something like “look it’s all made up nonsense so let’s at least make it less oppressively patriarchal nonsense “.

sprinkleeninow

(20,250 posts)
29. Here's me being 'honest'.
Sat Aug 4, 2018, 01:10 AM
Aug 2018

It's all made up hooey, so why is anyone bothering about it.

Just sayin'.....


Mariana

(14,858 posts)
30. Whether or not it's all made up hooey
Sat Aug 4, 2018, 02:03 AM
Aug 2018
some of the people who believe it's real like to pass oppressive laws based upon it. That affects everyone, and is definitely good reason to bother about it

sprinkleeninow

(20,250 posts)
31. Now how did I know/expect that to be the forthcoming response after my
Sat Aug 4, 2018, 02:16 AM
Aug 2018

cheeky post. 🙂

'Some o' them people.'

These pervert the intent of the 'message', if you will.

You do have the understanding that there are many/enough believers that are righteously incensed regarding shall we say 'charlatans' that have literally ruined the Christian faith/message.

& 😍

Mariana

(14,858 posts)
35. Naturally, you believe that you are right
Sat Aug 4, 2018, 09:26 AM
Aug 2018

and all those other people are doing it wrong. Even so, there are an awful lot of those other people, and the actions they take based on their interpretation of Christianity negatively affect us all.

sprinkleeninow

(20,250 posts)
42. Supposedly the First 'Christians' met with one another in homes for worship and fellowship.
Sat Aug 4, 2018, 01:49 PM
Aug 2018

They took a collection [tithe] and gave it to one of the apostles to distribute to those in need.

Simple, not complicated. It's become in some circles a religion of power points, committees and such.

Mariana

(14,858 posts)
62. In the Book of Acts, chapter 5
Sun Aug 5, 2018, 12:57 AM
Aug 2018

A man and wife sold their land and gave some of the money to the Apostles, and kept some back for themselves. Peter demanded to know if they had turned over the whole amount. They didn't tell him the truth, and they were both killed. Afterward, according to verse 11, "Great fear seized the whole church and all who heard about these events." Well, I guess so. If anything like the events in this story really happened, then we see that it didn't take long at all for the very first Christian leaders to use threats of violence to keep people in line.

sprinkleeninow

(20,250 posts)
63. This appears to be
Sun Aug 5, 2018, 02:05 AM
Aug 2018
your interpretation.

These two knew better and deliberately lied in keeping a portion of their pledged offering for themselves. The apostles didn't 'kill' them. If the story is literally received, they keeled over themselves/croaked themselves by their foolish submission to the lying wiles of the enemy.

There are modern day stories regarding 'men of the cloth' who were supernaturally affected trying to serve a church service. In a not good way.

Years ago, I witnessed a 'sign' during one Feastday of the Resurrection service. It had to do with the Paschal candle. 'Some' would pooh-pooh it with a 'reasonable' explanation.

One can grieve the Holy Spirit, lie to the Holy Spirit, employ deception in relations with the Holy Spirit, resist the Holy Spirit. The unpardonable sin is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Which may to a lesser degree be committed today. But who knows.



Major Nikon

(36,827 posts)
46. Now how did I know/expect that to be the forthcoming response after my
Sat Aug 4, 2018, 03:02 PM
Aug 2018

cheeky post. 🙂

'Some o' them people.'

Just sayin'

sprinkleeninow

(20,250 posts)
55. Sounds like a plan. I could use the 💰💰💰. 🤑
Sat Aug 4, 2018, 04:55 PM
Aug 2018

Last edited Mon Aug 6, 2018, 03:32 AM - Edit history (1)

"The LOVE of $$ is the root of all evil, not money alone by itself."

Not guilty of money idolatry, but I don't mind having it. Nobody doesn't like it. Excepting the monastic who may have thoughts about it occasionally and then does repentance.

It's been real! The man of the house 🤣 is home and he's buggin' me. He still don't know I rule the rooost. 😁

See ya l8r, bye....

MineralMan

(146,317 posts)
43. Well, Christianity has precious little to do with Jesus, really.
Sat Aug 4, 2018, 02:19 PM
Aug 2018

If that were not so, things would be going a lot better for a lot of people. Instead, we have tons of bigotry and ugliness attached to a guy who may have lived and died a couple thousand years ago.

So, was Jesus a charlatan? Impossible to say, this long after that time.

Major Nikon

(36,827 posts)
47. It's also impossible to say whether or not David Koresh was a god as he also claimed
Sat Aug 4, 2018, 03:09 PM
Aug 2018

But one can draw reasonable conclusions from the available information. If one comes to the perfectly reasonable conclusion Jesus wasn't what he claimed, that makes him a charlatan.

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
48. Difference is, we know exactly what David Koresh said and did
Sat Aug 4, 2018, 03:27 PM
Aug 2018

Last edited Sat Aug 4, 2018, 04:25 PM - Edit history (1)

With Jesus, we have hearsay and rumors that were written down long after the fact. We don't know if he said a single one of the words attributed to him. If he did say some of them, his followers don't seem to agree on what they meant.

Major Nikon

(36,827 posts)
51. We don't know Jesus even claimed divinity
Sat Aug 4, 2018, 04:24 PM
Aug 2018

There's no evidence for that even in the bible. Regardless of whether it's claimed or attributed, the confirming evidence in both cases is exactly the same.

MineralMan

(146,317 posts)
57. Well, since there is no reliable record of
Sat Aug 4, 2018, 07:57 PM
Aug 2018

anything having to do with the one called Jesus, it's hard to characterize him at all. The story we know is a concocted one, that may have almost nothing to do with reality.

Major Nikon

(36,827 posts)
58. I think the parallels with Koresh are interesting
Sat Aug 4, 2018, 09:17 PM
Aug 2018

Immediately after his suicide-by-cop, he was martyred by a growing list of fundies and other associated nutbags. Had it not been for the bad press he received for his acts of child molestation he very well could have been the next Jesus.

MineralMan

(146,317 posts)
64. Yes. There are definitely similarities. However,
Sun Aug 5, 2018, 09:58 AM
Aug 2018

we know precious little about the Jesus of millennia ago. Nothing written was written during the time he was alive, and the official story, as related in the Gospels, was edited and curated heavily by the Roman church.

I have no reason to believe that it all happened as written. In fact, i doubt that very much. Christianity is a marvel of early and continuing marketing.

sprinkleeninow

(20,250 posts)
86. The next jesus in your estimation.
Sun Aug 5, 2018, 07:43 PM
Aug 2018

There will be no next jesus.

The One Who will appear in His Second and Final 'epiphany'/manifestation will be

He Who Is.

Major Nikon

(36,827 posts)
88. Your estimation has already been cold hard busted
Sun Aug 5, 2018, 07:52 PM
Aug 2018

Sorry to burst your bubble, but the expiration date on that prophecy has long since expired

Mark 13:26-30 New International Version (NIV)

26 “At that time people will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. 27 And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens.

28 “Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 29 Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that it[a] is near, right at the door. 30 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

sprinkleeninow

(20,250 posts)
39. You should perhaps think of getting a gig at The Laugh Factory.
Sat Aug 4, 2018, 01:30 PM
Aug 2018

Uproarious, I say. Knee-slappin'.

Just sayin'....

sprinkleeninow

(20,250 posts)
75. Yes, this is correct. God responding with an answer of
Sun Aug 5, 2018, 06:00 PM
Aug 2018

existing.

The Orthodox have an Ikon 'Pantocrator'. In the nimbus/halo/glory is the wording:

ό ώ ?

'Who Is' [Who Has Being]



guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
76. And concepts of gender are a part of the Creator,
Sun Aug 5, 2018, 06:05 PM
Aug 2018

just as every aspect of creation is an aspect and a reflection of the Creator.

sprinkleeninow

(20,250 posts)
82. Yes, this.👏
Sun Aug 5, 2018, 07:26 PM
Aug 2018

Hard understanding/processing for some. To be expected. That's not a put-down. Just reality.

sprinkleeninow

(20,250 posts)
95. So you say. I borrowed this double negative technique from the mango coloured oval office occupant.
Mon Aug 6, 2018, 12:18 AM
Aug 2018

Who recently tried to back his way out of saying jerky stuff in Helsinki. You copy?
Double negative FAIL.

Major Nikon

(36,827 posts)
92. I feel no obligation to prove or disprove what anyone else asserts without evidence
Sun Aug 5, 2018, 10:55 PM
Aug 2018

Quod grātīs asseritur, grātīs negātur.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
124. Not necessarily.
Tue Aug 7, 2018, 07:32 PM
Aug 2018

We could be sharing a delusion.

Or, your response might be a part of my personal delusion.

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
125. You are behaving as if you believe you are speaking to real people
Tue Aug 7, 2018, 07:56 PM
Aug 2018

If you thought it was delusion, you would be asking yourself the question, not the delusion. Asking a question implies an answerer. So the question is actually its own answer.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
126. My behavior, the conversations at DU, might be an aspect of my own delusion.
Tue Aug 7, 2018, 07:58 PM
Aug 2018

But this is quite far from questions of gender and the Creator.

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
127. They might be, but you do not believe it to be so
Tue Aug 7, 2018, 08:00 PM
Aug 2018

Any more than you believe there is no Creator or that the Creator has gender.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
98. You have absolutely no idea, and you never will.
Mon Aug 6, 2018, 08:33 AM
Aug 2018

Not like that's ever stopped you from telling everyone else anyway.

CrispyQ

(36,478 posts)
102. Man created God to control woman. So of course man made God a man.
Mon Aug 6, 2018, 09:59 AM
Aug 2018

I was taught that God had no gender. When I asked in Confirmation, why we didn't have a special pronoun for God, the pastor didn't have an answer. Then I said, "There's God the Father & God the Son & God the Holy Ghost. Where are the women in this religion?" The pastor then started naming all the female characters in the Bible, like I wasn't smart enough to discern the difference between a female human & a female deity. It was one of my first feminist experiences & it turned me off of religion ever since.

Major Nikon

(36,827 posts)
105. They did, eventually
Mon Aug 6, 2018, 11:16 AM
Aug 2018

After a few millennia or so of being passed around from countless generations of superstitious illiterates it was eventually written down, lost, and re-scribed dog knows how many times. During this span of several thousand years the language changed dramatically and thousands of translation errors introduced at every step of the process.

Yet some would have you believe they can derive subtle linguistic original meanings from all this, even though it completely contradicts everything else we have about how those original people interpreted it.

Meanwhile all of this betrays a far simpler and far more reasonable explanation, which is man created god in his own image.

Act_of_Reparation

(9,116 posts)
106. I mean in reference to the early church.
Mon Aug 6, 2018, 12:23 PM
Aug 2018

It only took them a single generation to warm up to record keeping.

MineralMan

(146,317 posts)
109. Yup.
Mon Aug 6, 2018, 02:10 PM
Aug 2018

There are four living generations in my family. My parents are the oldest, at 94. The youngest of the fourth generation is 5 years old. If my parents live another couple of years, the oldest of the fourth generation is likely to produce a great-great grandchild, based on her current activities.

That would be five generations. Still, a hundred years and change following the supposed birth of the supposed Messiah is a long time not to have any surviving written records. Plus, you'd think that such writings would be treated as priceless treasures and preserved by followers of that religion.

The paucity of written records is evidence of something, but not of the truth of the stories, really. In 150 years, many things can be concocted. If another 150 years passes before an official canon of the scripture is pieced together, who knows whether it bears any similarity to the real story?

I'd guess not.

Act_of_Reparation

(9,116 posts)
110. I'm being generous...
Mon Aug 6, 2018, 02:59 PM
Aug 2018

...and working under the assumption the suggested authorship dates of the gospels are generally correct.

But that's neither here nor there. "The Early Church" is usually defined as anything and everything between the 33 CE and 375 CE.

Major Nikon

(36,827 posts)
112. Genesis was in written form at least a millennium before Christ
Mon Aug 6, 2018, 03:36 PM
Aug 2018

Which makes it all that more curious as to why it took Christians so long to embrace literacy.

Act_of_Reparation

(9,116 posts)
113. It makes sense if Christianity was an apocalyptic cult.
Tue Aug 7, 2018, 08:16 AM
Aug 2018

Why write shit down when the world's just gonna end in a few years anyway?

sprinkleeninow

(20,250 posts)
107. If your 'belief' is that man made God up to suit himself, then, yeah,
Mon Aug 6, 2018, 12:26 PM
Aug 2018

go roll with it.

I'm on one road, you're on another. Shall the twain meet? Not impossible and not improbable.

Be well.

Major Nikon

(36,827 posts)
111. Rejection of belief isn't a belief
Mon Aug 6, 2018, 03:12 PM
Aug 2018

I get that some feel the need to pretend this is so to combat their own doubts, but as with other things a strong desire to want something to be true doesn't make it true.

So we aren't on two different roads. To borrow your own analogy it's more like you are in a toy car imagining yourself traveling on a road and I opted out of playtime.

sprinkleeninow

(20,250 posts)
133. Oh, my DOG.
Wed Aug 8, 2018, 02:26 PM
Aug 2018

This be my last posting due to 'some' people wearing me down. A tad weary, but I haven't fainted as yet.

Regardless, love y'all...

sprinkleeninow

(20,250 posts)
135. Saying this with hesitancy:
Thu Aug 9, 2018, 12:07 AM
Aug 2018

I don't believe it matters if I go. And I don't feel you would care. You said what you did with frivolity? Mb I'm wrong.

Either way, it's no matter.



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