Religion
Related: About this forumTheism, and other belief systems.
First, what are they?
Obviously a belief system is a method of looking at the world and interacting with it. As one definition suggests:
https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/belief-system
So a belief system can be based on theism, or patriotism, or any other system that one might use.
I have previously suggested that atheism is also a belief system, and a few self-defined atheists at DU have strongly disagreed with me, insisting that atheism is merely the absence of any theistic belief.
My argument was that if a person used atheism as a way of defining truth and falsity, that constitutes a belief system. And I was told, quite strongly, that I was attempting as a theist to define atheism for atheists.
So when I read the following passage, from one of the self-defined DU atheists, I was confused.
The passage:
https://www.democraticunderground.com/1218287061
Now that sounds like a belief system to me, and it also sounds like a definite assertion of what is true and what is false, at least according to the one atheist who wrote it.
Perhaps atheism, like theism, has a variety of positions?
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)With officially accepted history serving as the holy book.
marylandblue
(12,344 posts)guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)And many call these myths history.
marylandblue
(12,344 posts)It might be "American Exceptionalism" or something like that . Something with content. Patriotism has no content.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)Patriotism is defined as a love of country. And the word country does not refer to the soil, but to the concept of a country apart from other places.
marylandblue
(12,344 posts)I am a patriot. Can you now tell me what I believe about my country, other than I love it above other countries?
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)Can you tell me, if we have never met, what my positions and beliefs are?
marylandblue
(12,344 posts)As contrasted to a belief system like liberalism. Knowing only that you are an American liberal, I can guess you are in favor of government aid to the poor, racial equality and don't like the current president.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)Under that umbrella are many different systems.
marylandblue
(12,344 posts)"The belief system of a person or society is the set of beliefs that they have about what is right and wrong and what is true and false."
Theism doesn't tell you anything about right or wrong, and only tells you one thing about what is true. It is not a "set." The things under it may be belief systems, but theism itself is not.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)Under that heading, individual religions provide their own definitions of right and wrong behavior.
marylandblue
(12,344 posts)But a bunch of religions are not. They don't met the definition. A heading is just a heading.
longship
(40,416 posts)One really gets tired of the same, old arguments from these theist witnesses. They literally cannot stand that some folks just don't see their gods as existent. So they make shit up about atheists.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)Your right.
longship
(40,416 posts)Where's the verb, guillaumeb?
I disagree with just about all theist characterizations of atheists. They are all of a simple, single formula. That pretty much makes them all wrong.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)but you disagreed with another atheist who defined atheism. That was my link. So when a person characterizes theists as being fine with lying and other things, what is your response to that?
longship
(40,416 posts)Theists generally make things up about atheists. I call that bearing false witness.
That's my response.
Cary
(11,746 posts)It seems to me that must come from lack of confidence.
sprinkleeninow
(20,255 posts)longship
(40,416 posts)I don't care what people believe, or not. It's how they act in conjunction with those beliefs that make the difference.
Some believers just cannot help but characterize atheists as some kind of alternate believers. That is a very strange characterization which I specifically reject.
I like many people here, including both believers and non-believers.
sprinkleeninow
(20,255 posts)marylandblue
(12,344 posts)You confusing beliefs (like theism) with belief systems (a set of beliefs, like Christianity) with emotions (like patriotism) with the basis of a belief system (like the Bible or science). These are related things, but they are not the same at all, each one having different functions in an individual's psyche.
That's a lot of things to mix up at once, so it makes it difficult to respond further.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)and referencing one person's characterization of atheism as a belief system.
Eko
(7,351 posts)a set of principles or tenets which together form the basis of a religion, philosophy, or moral code. Notice the pluralism on principles and tenets? Besides one form or another that there is no god what other principles or tenets do atheists have to follow to be an atheist?
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)And I also provided one.
A classic situation of dueling definitions.
Eko
(7,351 posts)"set of beliefs". That's plural. Atheism is only the belief that there is no god or a version of that.
marylandblue
(12,344 posts)not a belief system. A system is the sum of inter-related parts. You have a circulatory system. Is a single vein the same as the whole system?
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)And read the link to see the original post and ask this of the poster. Not one person argued with the original post or the poster.
marylandblue
(12,344 posts)Not the circulatory system. The poster only defined atheism. It is a belief. It may be part of his own belief system. But you'd need to ask him what that system is.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)it is a belief system. We all have beliefs, and how they interrelate defines what we are, and defines our own personal belief system.
marylandblue
(12,344 posts)Is a liver a human being?
Is a wheel a car?
Is "F= " an equation?
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)safeinOhio
(32,715 posts)Ethical Soceity group. As humanist we put humans before Gods.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)I understand.
Eko
(7,351 posts)"use{d} atheism as a way of defining truth and falsity". Is there a book, instructions, a how to video on how to use atheism to define truth and falsity?
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)So according to this opinion, atheism is a certain belief that no deities exist. Thus the atheist, at least as defined by this person, sees as truth that there are no deities.
You're not telling me how one used Atheism to come to that conclusion, you're telling me what they are calling the conclusion, Atheism.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)An unprovable conclusion requires a belief.
marylandblue
(12,344 posts)Then proved logically that you can't be a theistic atheist. Based on that post alone, you can't even tell if he is an atheist or not. It's something you know from his other posts.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)The poster defined his personal belief.
marylandblue
(12,344 posts)He didn't actually say anything about his beliefs. It comes down to this:
An atheist is someone who doesn't believe in God. (Proposition 1, definition of atheism).
Sally believes in God (Proposition 2).
Sally is not an atheist (Conclusion).
Which of those is my personal belief?
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)as a disbelief in a deity, and a certain belief in the same thing. There is no logic there, simply a statement of opinion which is also a statement of belief.
marylandblue
(12,344 posts)guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)as a certain belief?
marylandblue
(12,344 posts)guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)But some few here insist that it is not a belief, and none of those same few argued with MM when he said it that it is a belief. Interesting example of outrage and consistency.
marylandblue
(12,344 posts)If you feel that MM is being inconsistent with his own beliefs, why don't you ask him about it?
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)and the seeming variability of the positions depending on who says what.
marylandblue
(12,344 posts)People use them all the time. It's no big deal. It's kind of boring really, like reading the Army Manual, that's full of tactics too. Snooze.
But if you are concerned about excess variability of positions, why don't you ask those variable people about it? You have suggested the same thing as a tactic. When you do it, it's a tactic because those people aren't on this board to ask. I am doing it here, not as a tactic, but because you can ask the question right here, right now, of people who can answer here.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)such variability, if you will, speak of selective outrage and selective positions depending on the situation.
marylandblue
(12,344 posts)guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)Sad when the politics of something can deter actual dialogue, and appreciation for our commonalities.
I have a thread about the fight for wages, and none of the objections actually addressed the actual substance of the post.
It almost seems as if some feel compelled to respond negatively by reflex.
edited to add: Here is the post:
https://www.democraticunderground.com/1218287403
marylandblue
(12,344 posts)You are expecting a certain type of response that you will never get.
Mariana
(14,860 posts)Yes, people who disagree with you get to post here, too. How unspeakably awful that must be for you.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)If only you had responded to the actual point, rather than the straw man that you constructed.
Eko
(7,351 posts)The burden of proof is on the one making the claim. You say there is a god, you have no proof and no one does, conclusion there is no god = Atheism. Atheism is not that there never was or could be one, it is the label one uses when they come to the conclusion that since there is no evidence for it there is no reason to believe it exists. Its not a belief, its a label for a conclusion.
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)Just gonna leave this here for anyone interested in knowing what they're talking about.
Null Hypothesis
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)I get you are convinced you are being clever, but believe it or not you arent the first one to come up with this nonsense.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)You know, just like always.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)What I expected was the choir to show up. And I was rewarded. Well, rewarded is not the exact word, but I am certain you will understand.
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)But at least the fan club was well rewarded.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)Eko
(7,351 posts)"disbelief in deities".
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)Simply an unprovable belief.
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)Eko
(7,351 posts)"Atheism is the disbelief in deities or the certain belief that no deities exist."
This "disbelief in deities" is the first part. Is that an unprovable belief? See the dis part of disbelief?
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)The first, being unprovable, is itself a belief, and the second is also unprovable.
Eko
(7,351 posts)Defining a word is unprovable?
Just waiting for your answer to my comment. Post 101.
Thanks!
MineralMan
(146,329 posts)guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)Therefore I must have a belief system.
Eko
(7,351 posts)Now its an organized religion, lol
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)marylandblue
(12,344 posts)If you went to your refrigerator, then you must believe in refrigeration systems. Therefore you only have the unprovable conclusion that you are drinking beer. You can't prove it because you are already too impaired to think. Please don't drive.
Voltaire2
(13,154 posts)guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)Congratulations.
Voltaire2
(13,154 posts)guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)A certificate of appreciation will be forthcoming.
Voltaire2
(13,154 posts)guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)And see what happens.
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)Duh
trotsky
(49,533 posts)sprinkleeninow
(20,255 posts)He one of my wise sages of which I have two to date.
Guillaume. Mon Cher. Bon soir!
💙🇺🇸🌊
the loiterers out!
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)But thank you.
marylandblue
(12,344 posts)sprinkleeninow
(20,255 posts)marylandblue
(12,344 posts)sprinkleeninow
(20,255 posts)I have a certain fondness for youuu. 🤗
Just sayin'....😉
marylandblue
(12,344 posts)MineralMan
(146,329 posts)Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)Then insult everyone who doesn't agree with you.
So predictable, though you seem rather inscenced today, if kinda lonely.
Everything alright?
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)do you not?
Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)those you rudely refer to as "the choir" (aka: anyone who disagrees with you) have attempted many many times to engage in dialoge, and you don't. You refuse. Then you go make another thread accusing them of not wanting dialogue.
Many have given up trying to have dialogue because, you just don't? Like, you say something, someone makes a comment, then you just stop having a conversation? Like, can't even answer a simple question, you twist and turn until the whole thing is unrecognisable to the point of accidentally defending nazis that one time.
Be the change you want to see.
sprinkleeninow
(20,255 posts)its 'Raison D'être'. 🤼
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)Bingo.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)Only to further prove that he doesn't actually care to do it.
The more people who are exposed to his tactics, the better.
Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)until I can't deal with it anymore because he does something so far over the top, like the time he repeatedly linked to someone's post in a protected group until he got that post hidden because he carried such a christian like grudge. Really, we should have a sticky of all these antics for the newbs so we don't have to constantly search and post them over and over when they pretend all that never happened.
Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)Then the other old standby that theists use that everything started last tuesday, so the atheists are just being rude for NO REWASON AT ALL GUISE and are the sole reason things are the way they are because theey don't have gawd.
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)I did not exist until our little buddy started posting. It is totes unfair of me to act like I haven't heard these lame arguments and petulant tactics a thousand times before. I will be more patient with the nonsense.
sprinkleeninow
(20,255 posts)Mariana
(14,860 posts)MineralMan
(146,329 posts)I'm incensed that so many people have severely limited vocabularies. I'm not sure where the blame for that lies.
sprinkleeninow
(20,255 posts)sprinkleeninow
(20,255 posts)pleasant way, but I guess not.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)Neither is atheism.
Christianity is a belief system. Humanism is a belief system. Communism is a belief system.
BTW, I'm sorry about your close friend who got banned. No, not that one. No, not that one either. The most recent one.
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)Hard to keep track. No doubt most are simply reincarnations.
MineralMan
(146,329 posts)the one with the screen name of ollie10 or something like that. Yesterday, that DUer had the fifth post hidden in 90 days and was put on review. The last hidden post from that DUers appears to have been a personal attack on another DUer.
marylandblue
(12,344 posts)MineralMan
(146,329 posts)Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)Coincidentally right before the other one appeared.
Mariana
(14,860 posts)trotsky
(49,533 posts)Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)Bretton Garcia
(970 posts)You can 1) believe the moon is made of green cheese.
Or you can 2) follow science, and believe what physical evidence says.
Which belief seems better?
To Guil, apparently,.they have equal status.