In my 72 years on this planet, I have met many, many Christians

[MineralMan]

Over time, I've asked a number of them to describe their beliefs. All I have asked have been quick to do so. Generally, their statements have been on the order of one of the typical Creeds used by various denominations. They believe, basically, in the birth of Jesus, the only son of God, his eventual death by crucifixion, and his resurrection and ascension to Heaven. They believe that those things atone for their sins if they believe and, in some cases, repent those sins.

There are variations of this, of course, but those basic beliefs are universal among those I have asked.

What I have never encountered, until arriving in this Group, was someone who refused to say what it was that he or she believed about those basic tenets. Nobody ever hedged their words, or beat around the bush. The basic facts, to them, were real and factual, and were the basis of their religious faith.

I have been surprised to learn that there are some, if only "some few," Christians who don't actually believe those things to be factual, and term themselves to be Christians because they "follow the teachings" or some such thing. I'm not sure how that's possible, really. How can one believe without believing the very basic premises of Christianity? Or, perhaps, is it that they just don't want to say what they actually believe?

'Tis a puzzlement...

[zipplewrath]

1. It's more than a few

If you are within the community, you'd be surprised how many people ultimately express doubts about some aspects of the divinity of Jesus. Either about his miracles, his resurrection, or the likelihood of his actual "return".

As I've said before, during my time in organized religion, I found that the vast majority of participants knew little of the theology, and their participation had little to do with the theology and mostly having to do with a need for a community and their traditions. And for many of them, it was so as to have a context in which to teach their children basic morality.

This is not to suggest that there aren't committed, knowledgeable faithful. You'll often find them in various leadership or instructional positions. But go into ANY church and pick out 5 folks and you'll be lucky to find one that has anything more than an introductory understanding the the theology to which they profess adherence.

I did have an interesting conversation with a "literalist". i.e. someone who professed a belief that the bible was literally true. He also admitted that while he believed it, it was also unnecessary to his faith. If he ever found out one day that there were parables or other inaccuracies in the bible, it would not undermine his basic faith in the divinity of Christ, even if some of the miracles were not true. Jesus spoke to him, and Jesus answered prayers so he knew Christ to that extent.

[Raven123]

2. The more you read about the history of Christianity

The less surprising such statements are. Christians have always been more diverse than they seem. Even some of the Saints had doubts.

[Mariana]

9. There is a vast difference between someone who has doubts

and someone who flatly refuses to say what he believes.

[Raven123]

15. Perhaps they are still working it out

[Laffy Kat]

3. Our family attended a Unitarian church while I was growing up.

Saw this sort a thing all the time. The tenets of the church reject the concept of the trinity, although many Unitarians consider themselves Xtians because they following the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth. Not sure how they reconciled those two beliefs, but power to 'em. I no longer go to any church and have fully, although quietly, embraced my atheist self.

[MineralMan]

4. I deliberately left the Trinity concept out of my basic description.

I, too, know some non-trinitarians.

[Laffy Kat]

5. But isn't the trinity one of the basic tenets of Christianity?

For me, it was such a deal-breaker even if I tried looking at the concept symbolically which is what we were instructed to do in Sunday school. I had no use for it.

[MineralMan]

7. It's not universal among Christians.

See this link for a list:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nontrinitarianism

[Laffy Kat]

8. Thanks. nt

[muriel_volestrangler]

10. There's no mention of it in the bible, and the word only appeared in the 3rd century

though some were groping towards the concept in the 2nd century: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinitarianism_in_the_Church_Fathers

Important for the established churches which settled on it in the 4th century and denounced those who did not as heretics, which modern churches come from. But if people do say "I'll take the bible as divinely inspired, but not the arguments afterwards". it looks extremely man-made to them. Or suspiciously like neoplatonism:

The system can be divided between the invisible world and the phenomenal world, the former containing the transcendent One from which emanates an eternal, perfect, essence (nous), which, in turn, produces the world-soul.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoplatonism#Teachings

[Major Nikon]

11. It's actually not that difficult for Christians to reject the concept of the trinity

There's no evidence for the trinity in the synoptic gospels. Jehova's Witnesses, who are arguably more fundamentalist than most Christian fundamentalists are nontrinitarian for just that reason. The reason why trinitarian doctrine is so well embedded in mainstream Christianity is because the RCC was founded on it.

[Nitram]

6. Christianity, like any faith or religion, is complex and the beliefs of self-described christians

vary greatly. They range from biblical literalists to mystics who achieve union with god through various techniques. The early church had widely differing views on most of what you, Mineral Man, summarized above. Christians debated these ideas at the Councils of Nicea, where politics won the day and the Church solidified its core beliefs. Before that there were those who believed in original sin and those who didn't, those who were patriarchal and those who weren't, those who believed that Jesus and god are identical and those who believed they were not, those who believe that we are born with grace, and those who believe grace is achieved through good works. I'm surprised Mineral Man, after talking to so many Christians you came away without realizing the huge variation in christian beliefs. My own belief is that you don't have to believe in god to be a christian because it is the teachings of Jesus about how we are to treat our fellow men, care for the poor, forgive others, etc that is what christianity is all about.

[Major Nikon]

12. What you say is undoubtedly true

However, mainstream Christian doctrine is pretty much in unison on all the things you mentioned. So while there's no shortage of those who go against the grain, it's not as if you're likely to run into many who are willing to share those beliefs openly as they will face ostracism from the mainstream in much the same way atheists do.

[Nitram]

13. I was responding to Mineral Man's point, which was that he didn't know how it was possible

for anyone to profess to be a christian if they didn't follow what he considers "the very basic premises of Christianity." I was trying to answer that question by pointing out that there have always been vast differences in what different christians believe. I also doubt that such people really care what "mainstream" Christians think about it. I don't agree with either Mineral Man's premise, nor his conclusions. but that's just me after 66 years on this earth.

[Major Nikon]

14. I get that part

I’m just saying if you don’t run in the circles of those outside mainstream Christian theology you may not realize how many of them are out there.

[Nitram]

16. I agree.