Misogyny

[Cartoonist]

Since it's become fashionable to start a new thread out of another, here's mine.

The word and works of God is quite clear, that women were made either to be wives or prostitutes. —Martin Luther, Reformer (1483-1546)

Misogyny is a strong word. I see it thrown at men who are just stupid or immature. Dawkins is a favorite target. Here's my challenge: find a quote by Dawkins that even comes close to the quote above.

Winner gets an autographed cartoon by me in a solid gold frame.

[MineralMan]

1. Martin Luther made many statements that are almost never mentioned.

They're inconvenient. That's a pattern. If a historical religious patriarch said things that aren't popular later, they simply are never mentioned. Few people bother to read everything Luther or other ancient religious figures wrote. Those who do bother simply don't mention those inconvenient things, so they go unknown to most people.

If the statement from Luther you quoted were mentioned on Sunday at the typical Lutheran church, most people would simply not believe that he said that, or any of the horribly anti-Semitic writings he penned.

Religions are highly skilled in burying inconvenient things said by their founders or later leaders. They rely on the fact that few people bother to dig deeply into the history of that religion.

As for Dawkins, he is one person. There is no central organization of atheists. Some people listen to Dawkins, but most atheists don't bother with any of that. Atheism is not at the core of their daily lives. It is simply non-belief. How much does one need to consider non-belief? It is a trivial aspect of the lives of most atheists.

[Ferrets are Cool]

80. Listen to him? Hell, I didn't even know who he was

till his name was brought up here. And you are 100% correct...it's not at the core of our daily lives. The only time it ever comes up is when a "christian" tries to shove it down my throat.

[ExciteBike66]

2. Contest rules...

"Here's my challenge: find a quote by Dawkins that even comes close to the quote above. "

Can I choose ANYONE named Dawkins? Or does it have to be a specific Dawkins?

[Cartoonist]

4. The atheist

I think I know where you're going. You want to quote the former host of Family Feud. OK, I'll open the contest. Second prize for other Dawkins quotes. They must be atheists though.

Second place is prizeless.

[ExciteBike66]

5. Do you really think ALL of those women consented to ALL of his kisses?

Or did he abuse his power as a game-show host?

[Ferrets are Cool]

81. Now that was FUNNY!!

[ExciteBike66]

86. I blame my wife

I never even knew who Dawkins was until she started watching old gameshows on some obscure TV channel.

[Ferrets are Cool]

87. It's my understanding that the channel you speak of

has become one of the most popular on cable. I can see why. Most of these shows are not time/topic sensitive and are just as fun to watch now as they were when they were new.

[Paleologue]

6. Dawson

Not Dawkins. But maybe anyone named Richard can be quoted to smear atheists.

[Fix The Stupid]

3. I bet the google is getting a workout now! :)

This thread will die. Guaranteed. Too much truth here.

You will get some responses, probably just more questions thrown back at you, a couple quotes from some random atheists and that will be it...

The point will be missed by those who need to see it the most.

Or maybe we'll get a gish gallop as someone 'struggles' to bury this.

[HopeAgain]

7. Question

Does one case of misogyny excuse another's misogynistic comments if it's not as bad?

Just askin' for a friend...

[Cartoonist]

8. Like I said

I think the word is often misused. I probably set the bar higher than some. I routinely squash spiders. Does that make me a murderer?

Give me a quote and I'll make a ruling.

[HopeAgain]

9. So if it is not as bad as what Luther said

It's not misogyny? That's like saying western women shouldn't complain about harassment because they aren't treated as bad as Muslim women.Oh wait...

[Cartoonist]

10. Go ahead

Define misogyny your way.

[HopeAgain]

11. I don't define words, but I imagine it includes

things less egregious than "all women are servants or prostitutes."

Edit: Sorry, "wives or Prostitutes"

[Cartoonist]

12. I agree

But there is a line.

"I think she's pretty"
Does that objectify women and make the speaker a misogynist?

"Grab them by the pussy"
Oh yeah, Martin has competition.

So give me a quote. The prize is still unclaimed.

[HopeAgain]

14. I see no point in comparing Dawkins to Luther

In fact, I suspect he never said anything as misogynistic as what was said by Luther in the early 16th Century. But what point does that prove?

[Cartoonist]

18. A little clarification

I don't recognize your name, so I guess you don't hang out here often. That's OK. Welcome.

There are two people who frequent this group who drop Dawkins' name everytime someone points to the misogyny inherent in religion. I think it's a stretch.

[HopeAgain]

21. Okay

I'm more of the belief that everybody, religious, agnostics and atheists have their fair share of sexists and everything else under the sun. A sexist comment is sexist regardless of who says it. After all, we are all human. I try to stay out of the ongoing argument on here as to whether religion is good or bad.

[Cartoonist]

23. My bias

I wouldn't use the phrase "fair share". I can name scores of religious leaders who are evil personified. Yes, there are bad atheists, but not so many. Also, I can't think of any books about atheism that actually prescribe evil like the Bible does.

[guillaumeb]

27. Scores of religious leaders.

Given that religion has been a component of human existence for 300,000 years, that you can name scores is laughable.

[Cartoonist]

28. You're right

There are probably millions of evil theists. I just can't name them all.

[HopeAgain]

30. I suspect if atheism became institutionalized

Like a church, a corporation or a government, we would know a lot more about the totality of the people who profess it. Also, if atheism had been around since the first century, like Christianity has been, who knows what would have been written by it's proponents? But I don't understand anyone who claims atheists are better than people with religion or religious people are better than atheists. Lots of people do bad things in this world who may be atheists, but we don't know it because atheism isn't organized in the same way.

I think its more about humans being human than anything else.

But as I said, I'm not into the one is better than the other argument, so I will leave it at that.

[guillaumeb]

32. A good response.

And this is indeed the answer:

I think its more about humans being human than anything else.

[Act_of_Reparation]

42. What do you mean "if atheism had been around since the first century"?

"Atheism" as a concept dates back to Classical Antiquity, well before the first century. I suspect non-belief has existed for as long as religion.

[HopeAgain]

45. Your probably right

But we simply don't have a record of atheists and atheist behavior on the same scale as the record of Christians to compare.

[Act_of_Reparation]

56. Gosh. I wonder why.

Oh. Right.

[HopeAgain]

57. Yeah lots of terrible things have been done in the name of religion

Just as lots of terrible things have been done in the name of nationalism, tribalism, capitalism, patriotism and all the other "isms" out there. Because religion has been so prevalent though, I can't assume the same kind of terrible acts wouldn't have been committed by other types of powerful institutions in its stead. And if given the same institutional structure and level of power, I don't know that atheists would have done better. There's no way to know.

But going back to original OP, which I note you often are loathe to do, I will call out sexism whether committed by a church, a movie producer, a Corporate CEO or a professed atheist. I believe the overwhelming common denominator is human behavior.

[Cartoonist]

58. So what is your take on Al Frankin?

Is he a sexist? Just askin'

[HopeAgain]

66. I don't know

But I do know that if a "man cops a feel" without consent, it would be assault. The issue there for me is I don't know what really happened.

Listen, I don't know if Dawkins is a misogynist or a sexist, but I do know he has said sexist things more than once. Clearly not like what Luther said 500 years ago, but the two aren't really comparable in context. There`s no condemnation of either religion or atheism from either for me, there's good and bad in all groups. I don't like broad statements about either, everybody is an individual and, more often than not, we foist our foibles on the institutions rather than the other way around.

[Paleologue]

68. Do you agree or disagree

that the Catholic Church is fundamentally sexist? How many women have "foisted their foibles" on it?

[HopeAgain]

82. I'm not Catholic

There are some aspects of the Catholic church that seem to me to be sexist. But I know a lot of Catholic men who do not behave as sexists. In fact, it is usually their wives, who willingly and voluntarily attend the church, and who drag them to Mass.

But there are other Christian churches that do not have those sexist attributes. They have women or gay preachers and do not preach any sexist Dogma. I therefore can't come to the conclusion that religion is, in itself, sexist.

As for the Catholic Church, I note that they are widely rooted in a number of cultures, some much less Progressive than others. So the reason the Catholic Church may be slower than others to reform may be as much cultural as it is religious.

[Paleologue]

83. I didn't ask about individual catholics

or about other churches. So I'm not sure why you're trying to distract by answering irrelevant questions.

What aspects of the catholic church "seem" to be sexist to you, and why do they only "seem".

The catholic church condemns cultural relativism, so by its own dictates, being slow to do the right thing because of culture cannot be excused.

[HopeAgain]

84. I dont think they are asking

to be excused by you any more than Dawkins is asking my forgiveness for his comments. Do you excuse the movie industry for the sexism uncovered by the Weinstein affair? Can we blame religion for everything uncovered since the #metoo movement took off?

[George II]

72. "dislike of, contempt for, or ingrained prejudice against women."

[George II]

71. Since the definition of murder is:

"the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another."

No.

But if you routinely squash spiders that does make you a killer.

[Cartoonist]

75. I can live with that

We're all killers then.

[George II]

77. Your spiders can't live with that.

[Cartoonist]

79. Niether

Can the microbes you slaughter by the millions every time you drink a glass of water.

[trotsky]

13. No one is claiming that but you, apparently. n/t

[HopeAgain]

16. So what is the point of this little exercise? nt

[trotsky]

17. It's in the OP.

Misogyny is a strong word. It means more than just making a sexist remark about women. A church denying women reproductive choice in their lives is objectively worse.

It doesn't excuse the man's comment, and no one is saying it does. However, ignoring the role of religion (its texts, teachings, and practice) and the special privilege it enjoys in society, by pointing to Dawkins and saying "SEE?? Non-religious people can be sexist too!" is an attempt at using whataboutism to avoid talking about it.

[HopeAgain]

19. I haven't met any class of people

Atheist, agnostic or religious who don't have their fair share of sexist people. But I guess I wasn't looking at it in the larger context of the ongoing "religion is bad - no it's not" argument that goes on endlessly in here. It kind of struck me as a "whataboutism" defense of things Dawkins has said.

[guillaumeb]

25. Attacking religion.

[trotsky]

49. Criticizing religion.

Some people can see the difference. Others simply want to shut discussion down.

[guillaumeb]

51. No, attacking.

Rather reflexively I would say.

[trotsky]

52. That's just your opinion.

Doesn't mean it's correct. Sorry, gilly. You lose again.

[trotsky]

15. And Dawkins has spoken out forcefully against an insanely misogynistic practice: FGM.

(Female Genital Mutilation)

Which oddly enough is generally supported by religious beliefs when it is done.

Dawkins has made some sexist statements indeed, and I'm not excusing them. But the "whataboutism" is all about scapegoating that, in order to excuse the literal misogyny encoded in sacred texts.

Gonna be fun watching people avoid taking you up on your challenge.

[Paleologue]

20. Strange that none of the "But Dawkins!!" crowd

bothers to talk to actual women that he has worked with and had contact with on a regular basis, both scientific peers and others. If he's really as big a sexist pig as they claim, it should be reflected in actual behavior, one would think.

[guillaumeb]

24. Sounds like an attempt to excuse Dawkins own thoughts and opinions.

Nice try.

[Cartoonist]

29. You're not even trying

Give me an example of these thoughts and opinions you find vile.

[guillaumeb]

33. They are too vile to post.

And from a modern day hero and leader of the Movement at that. He does not even have the disadvantage of being born 1700 years ago.

[Paleologue]

41. "Too vile to post"

Translation: "I know if I actually posted them, most people would laugh and say 'THAT'S what you have?'"

Better to use scare tactics for the easily led.

[guillaumeb]

44. Find them with Google.

I posted some actual comments here and the outcry was tremendous. You cannot have it both ways.

[Paleologue]

46. Link to your post

I want things one way-You claim it, you prove it. Otherwise, bullshit is called.

[guillaumeb]

47. Find the post and read it.

The search will be a good exercise.

[Paleologue]

50. Another classic tactic

Of your type of poster. Claim something false, then claim that the evidence is "out there", and blame everyone else for not wasting time looking for what is up to you to produce, and which probably never existed.

Call of bullshit stands.

[Paleologue]

39. Sounds like?

Try again. How about, sounds like an attempt to get a more complete and nuanced picture of someone. Or do you object to that? Do you keep telling yourself that there's nothing more to know, because you're afraid you won't be able to confirm what you desperately need to be true? Or are you one of those people who would rather judge someone by what they say than by what they actually do?

[guillaumeb]

43. A more complete and nuanced view?

Please. I post positive and negative things about religion. When I post positive things, the same few declared non-theists are quick to attack any positive posts about religion, so your complete and nuanced comment is rather funny.

[Paleologue]

48. So you CLAIM, and yet in this case

You are desperately afraid of any kind of "nuance", despite being its supposed champion.

Gee..wonder why?

[guillaumeb]

22. Excusing Dawkins' behavior?

Sad and disgusting, but if anyone wishes to excuse Dawkins' vile misogyny by employing whataboutism as a defense, what does that say? Misogyny is disgusting no matter who does it.

[Cartoonist]

26. Vile

Show me.

[guillaumeb]

31. No need, not when Google is available to you.

[Cartoonist]

34. Thank you for agreeing with me

Since you can't come up with anything vile to quote, religion wins the evil misogyny competition

[guillaumeb]

35. What an interesting display of logic.

I loved your fantasy history comment about the Chinese being atheists prior to Mao.

[Cartoonist]

36. What religion were they?

I live in the SF Bay Area. We have a large Asian population. I love associating with them because they don't buy into the God myth. Never did.

[guillaumeb]

37. I included a link.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_folk_religion

Read about the various gods, including the idea that the Emperor was speaking for the gods as their representative on earth.

[Cartoonist]

38. Not the same thing

Yin and yang. Most of those "folk" religions stress the natural order of things, not the invasive power of a God being.

[guillaumeb]

40. Read the article.

The Emperor was the incarnation of the god. And yes, there is also folk religion.

[AtheistCrusader]

54. You never fail to dissapoint.

[Me.]

55. Only A Male Would Pen An OP Of This Sort

For women, it's a 'you know it when you see/feel it' situation

[Cartoonist]

59. Al Frankin

How do you see/feel it?

[Me.]

60. SeriouslY?

[Cartoonist]

61. Yeah

You're an expert, right?

[Me.]

62. Yeah

most women are

[Cartoonist]

64. I'm not being snarky

I really am interested in your take. I didn't post the OP for nothing.

So where do you put Luther, Dawkins, and Frankin on the scale?

[Me.]

69. Wikipedia

“Misogyny (/mɪˈsɒdʒɪni/) is the hatred of, contempt for, or prejudice against women or girls. Misogyny can be manifested in numerous ways, including social exclusion, sex discrimination, hostility, androcentrism, patriarchy, male privilege, belittling of women, violence against women, and sexual objectification.[1][2] Misogyny can occasionally be found within sacred texts of religions and mythologies, and various influential Western philosophers and thinkers have been described as misogynistic.[“

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misogyny

As to Al Franken...do I think he was guilty of sexual abuse...I have serious doubts about Tweeden's claim.

Do I think he was ever misogynistic? Can’t say though many, many men have moments, behave in a women need to know her place, thanks hon, you're kidding you want to be a fireman/policeman…seriously, listen sweetie, what is that girl doing thinking she can play football/baseball, oh goodness you mean that man sitting next to you, doing the same job is earning 50% more than you, well you know, he has a family, women are secretaries not lawyers, but she’s a woman judge what does she know, a woman as president, you’re kidding right... way and so on and so forth. WE won’t even go into the disdain for female body parts and functions.

Ordinary things women couldn't do in the 1950’s/60s/70’s

Get a credit card

Serve on a jury

Go on the birth control pill

Get an Ivy League education

Experience equality in the workplace

Keep her job if she was pregnant.

Be acknowledged in the Boston Marathon

Refuse to have sex with her husband

Open A Bank Account

Practice Law

Become a Supreme Court Justice

Get a job without being rejected simply for being female

Get a mortgage

Adopt a baby as a single woman

[sheshe2]

73. Sweet response. Brilliant.

Thank you, me.

[Me.]

74. ...

[Cartoonist]

78. That word, hate

Kind of strong I think. Surely there are gray areas. You yourself have questions about Al.

[Me.]

85. Rather Pointless To Continue With You

Clearly playing a little game

[George II]

63. I don't get the point of this, but I'm sure it offended a number of people.

[Cartoonist]

65. Are you offended?

I see one person who was offended by my defense of Dawkins. That doesn't bother me because that same person recently posted a vile defense of Martin Luther.

[George II]

67. So, you're getting even?

[Mariana]

70. Why don't you answer the question? nt.

[Cartoonist]

76. Just posting a different view

And did you miss the lame joke at the beginning?