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MineralMan

(146,317 posts)
Wed Feb 14, 2018, 11:19 AM Feb 2018

Discussing Religion Can Be Very Difficult

Here in the Religion Group on DU, that difficulty is often quite visible. Some people are confused about the reason this group exists, and sometimes confuse the words "Religion" and "Religious." Discussions can sometimes look like active mine fields by the time a discussion finally winds down.

Part of the problem, of course, is that religious belief often carries a highly emotional load with it. When a person's closely-held religious beliefs are challenged, often that person reacts emotionally and negatively to such challenges. In other cases, abuses of individual freedoms or open bigotry are sometimes part of some people's actions, based on religious beliefs. While such things are not typical, they do occur and often even make the news. We often discuss such things here.

Since the Religion Group on DU is an open forum, anyone can post here, regardless of individual attitudes towards religious belief. Non-believers are officially welcomed here and can freely join the discussions in this group. Adherents to all religions are also welcome here, and are free to post about their beliefs. That, quite naturally, leads to posts and discussions that question the very validity of some religious beliefs.

Here's the thing: Religious beliefs and attitudes are a voluntary choice. Both belief and non-belief are valid options, and have equal weight. There's nothing sacred about believing in deities or in following a particular religion. It is simply a choice people make. Non-belief, too, is a choice, even though some people are simply unable to believe in supernatural things or entities. Non-belief is not inferior to belief, nor is belief inferior to non-belief. Both are acceptable here as topics of discussion.

We are all here, in an open discussion forum. We all have our own opinions. We needn't defer to whatever choices people make with regard to religion. Nor should we attack one another for those choices. We can discuss religion without resorting to anger, dishonesty, or untruths. Truly we can. We can disagree, even vehemently, without the use of ad hominem arguments or other illogical argument methods. We can. We should. We should, I think, make our opinions heard if we wish to do that, but we should do so without rancor, dissembling, or personal attacks.

Discussion of religion can be difficult, but it needn't be vicious.

That's my opinion on this Valentine's Day.

22 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Discussing Religion Can Be Very Difficult (Original Post) MineralMan Feb 2018 OP
Appears to consume some people. Sneederbunk Feb 2018 #1
Yes. For some, religion and beliefs are all-consuming. MineralMan Feb 2018 #2
I get the spirit of what you are saying edhopper Feb 2018 #3
I disagree. Religious belief is a choice. MineralMan Feb 2018 #6
Can you choose to believe in God now? edhopper Feb 2018 #10
No. Some choices are pretty much irreversible. MineralMan Feb 2018 #11
Okay edhopper Feb 2018 #12
Made me smile Mineral Man. Thank you. There are no good or bad actions except the beliefs we c-rational Feb 2018 #4
Well, I think there are some cultural and societal standards MineralMan Feb 2018 #8
Religion is something deeply personal that's not suitable to be discussed with others. DetlefK Feb 2018 #5
I understand what you're saying, but can't agree 100%. MineralMan Feb 2018 #7
It did not sound at all mean. guillaumeb Feb 2018 #9
Discussing religion can be very difficut when some insist on framing believers guillaumeb Feb 2018 #13
When someone is putting on a show for an audience Mariana Feb 2018 #14
!!! trotsky Feb 2018 #16
Is that what MM was doing? guillaumeb Feb 2018 #20
... Mariana Feb 2018 #21
Difficult too when some insist on defining atheism for atheists. trotsky Feb 2018 #15
Won't anyone help the poor, persecuted believers? MineralMan Feb 2018 #17
An ironic illustration of what you are writing about. guillaumeb Feb 2018 #22
Speaking of framin, it helps when people do it honestly. AtheistCrusader Feb 2018 #18
I Find that these any many other discussions on DU no longer chafe and irritate aka-chmeee Feb 2018 #19

MineralMan

(146,317 posts)
2. Yes. For some, religion and beliefs are all-consuming.
Wed Feb 14, 2018, 11:34 AM
Feb 2018

That can be a problem in many ways, affecting both individuals and those they encounter. I have no answer for that, really. If it's impossible for a person to hear anything other than praise for a particular way of thinking without becoming angry, probably discussion is impossible. Personally, I wouldn't expose myself to such discussion if I felt that way.



edhopper

(33,580 posts)
3. I get the spirit of what you are saying
Wed Feb 14, 2018, 11:46 AM
Feb 2018

but i don't think "choice" is correct. We don't choose to believe or not have beliefs. It is part of our formed world view.

It would be like saying we should start believing what Trump says aren't lies.

MineralMan

(146,317 posts)
6. I disagree. Religious belief is a choice.
Wed Feb 14, 2018, 11:54 AM
Feb 2018

Some choose to accept what they are taught without questioning it. Others do not. Choices are available, and are made.

edhopper

(33,580 posts)
10. Can you choose to believe in God now?
Wed Feb 14, 2018, 01:13 PM
Feb 2018

I can't overlook all that I have seen and read and thought about to turn around and decide to believe in a God.

MineralMan

(146,317 posts)
11. No. Some choices are pretty much irreversible.
Wed Feb 14, 2018, 01:19 PM
Feb 2018

I doubt very much that I could unlearn what I have learned. It would be an extraordinary thing that could convince me otherwise.

However, there are atheists who have made the choice to believe. Generally, they write about it, and such writings are read because they are so unusual.

It's not a one-way street, but the traffic seems to come mostly from the other direction.

edhopper

(33,580 posts)
12. Okay
Wed Feb 14, 2018, 01:55 PM
Feb 2018

we still disagree about the word. But it's semantics and I not as important to your larger points.

c-rational

(2,593 posts)
4. Made me smile Mineral Man. Thank you. There are no good or bad actions except the beliefs we
Wed Feb 14, 2018, 11:49 AM
Feb 2018

bring to them.

MineralMan

(146,317 posts)
8. Well, I think there are some cultural and societal standards
Wed Feb 14, 2018, 12:01 PM
Feb 2018

that apply to our actions that can be seen as defining what is good or bad.

DetlefK

(16,423 posts)
5. Religion is something deeply personal that's not suitable to be discussed with others.
Wed Feb 14, 2018, 11:52 AM
Feb 2018

It's so loaded with assumptions that MUST be true, it's loaded with vague definitions of abstract concepts, it's full of unspoken rules.

And on top of that, religion is not only intertwined with your image of yourself, it's also intertwined with the wider culture we share as a group.
That's why religion is not really a voluntary choice: If you change your religion, you redefine who and what you are. And maybe you don't want that redefinition.

For all these reasons, conflict is a natural byproduct when discussing religion.


EDIT:
This wasn't supposed to sound that mean.

MineralMan

(146,317 posts)
7. I understand what you're saying, but can't agree 100%.
Wed Feb 14, 2018, 11:59 AM
Feb 2018

Making choices can be difficult, especially if one is presented with a set of beliefs from childhood. However, the choice remains. Most people are also presented with alternatives to whatever indoctrination they receive. The fact that most atheists, for example, received some religious training early in their lives but made different choices later is evidence of that.

The choice to accept what you have been offered as truth without question is a choice. It's an easy choice, I suppose, but it is still a choice.

Rejecting all other information that differs from your current beliefs is also a choice. I'm not faulting people's choices, but they are still choices, I believe.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
9. It did not sound at all mean.
Wed Feb 14, 2018, 12:15 PM
Feb 2018

You made an excellent point about self-image, and how it is constructed.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
13. Discussing religion can be very difficut when some insist on framing believers
Wed Feb 14, 2018, 02:05 PM
Feb 2018

as unable to think critically, or as being indoctrinated, or many other provocative and insulting descriptions.

Mariana

(14,857 posts)
14. When someone is putting on a show for an audience
Wed Feb 14, 2018, 02:49 PM
Feb 2018

there can't be any real conversation, as it would interfere with the performance.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
15. Difficult too when some insist on defining atheism for atheists.
Wed Feb 14, 2018, 03:18 PM
Feb 2018

Perhaps the believers are not all innocent victims, as some pretend to be.

aka-chmeee

(1,132 posts)
19. I Find that these any many other discussions on DU no longer chafe and irritate
Wed Feb 14, 2018, 05:43 PM
Feb 2018

after reluctantly utilizing one of the DU features. As long as I make sure I am logged in, there are no longer burrs under my blanket!

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