Progressive people of faith: Barack Obama

[guillaumeb]

I have previously spoken of progressive people of faith in this group. I do this because people of faith make up the largest part of the Democratic voting population, and I think it is desirable to state that fact.

So, as today's progressive person of faith, I selected President Barack Obama.

President Obama was flying over Los Angeles in June as he listened to the first accounts from a courtroom in Charleston, S.C., where family members of nine dead parishioners who were gunned down at Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church had just addressed the accused killer.
He heard the words of a daughter who had lost her mother: “May God forgive you. I forgive you.”
He listened to the plea of a mother who had lost her son: “Every fiber in my body hurts .?.?. but may God have mercy on you.”

(I)n the Oval Office two days later, he seized upon something that seemed more important to him than any argument about gun control — an idea central to his political identity and his conviction that he could unify the divided nation.
“The essence of what is right about Christianity is embedded here,” he said of the families, according to notes taken during the meeting.
As Obama saw it, the parishioners and their families met the most demanding teachings of Christ. “They welcomed the stranger,” he said in the Oval Office meeting. “They forgave the worst violence.”

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/national/2015/12/22/obama-faith/?utm_term=.9877d4fccadd

I would agree with the President that the forgiveness exhibited by these people truly reflects one aspect of the message of Jesus.

Edited to add the name of the person in the title

[MineralMan]

1. Forgiveness is reflected in most religions.

It is not exclusive to Christianity. Nor do all Christians have forgiveness within them. It's more of a aspect of human nature than anything else, I believe.

Here is an interesting article on the subject of forgiveness in Buddhism:
http://dharmawisdom.org/teachings/articles/forgiving-unforgivable2

And a similar article about forgiveness in Islam:
http://productivemuslim.com/forgiving-others-enhancing-personal-productivity/

And in Hinduism:
http://www.hinduwebsite.com/selfdevt/forgiveness.asp

[guillaumeb]

2. I am somewhat familiar with Islam.

And it is my intent to present religious progressives from various faith groups.

[MineralMan]

3. Well, that's a good idea.

I'm just pointing out that the value of forgiveness is not just from Jesus. Not at all. It is a very human thing, and is valued highly by most cultures, frankly.

[guillaumeb]

8. It is valued, in theory.

But more valued in the saying than in the doing.

[MineralMan]

11. My dear Guy: That is true, regardless of the cultural

or religious group you discuss.

[AtheistCrusader]

5. Well, at least you'll be done soon.

[guillaumeb]

7. Would you care to elaborate?

I can think of many names almost immediately.

[AtheistCrusader]

9. Out of the whole, it's a short list. It's only proportionally 'many' when you ignore the whole.

[guillaumeb]

13. A short list compared to the entire population of the world?

Granted. But theists are a large and influential part of the Democratic voter base.

[AtheistCrusader]

16. I was limiting my scope to the voting populace of the United States, but the list is proportionally

shorter if you want to include the planet.

[trotsky]

4. And the religiously unaffiliated are the single largest "religious" voting bloc in the USA.

Promoting religion in politics might not be the best way to win them over.

[guillaumeb]

10. Which relates to this thread in what way exactly? eom

[AtheistCrusader]

12. Your irrelevant claim in the OP.

[guillaumeb]

14. I am reasonably certain that this means something to you.

Feel free to enlighten.

[AtheistCrusader]

18. You claimed

"people of faith make up the largest part of the Democratic voting population"

That's an irrelevant claim. A political party is made up of issues. Religion has been demonstrated to over-ride political affiliation.
What you are calling out is irrelevant to how they vote.

As we discussed last week, that's how we got Catholics, in Democratic California, voting to amend the state constitution to deny same sex couples the right to marry.



It also ignores the fact that you have to lump rival religions with rival dogmas that can conflict with political party planks, to achieve that number.

[trotsky]

15. All viewpoints are welcome in the Religion group.

Believers, non-believers, etc.

Given that the non-religious are now the country’s largest religious voting bloc, you might want to reflect on that before promoting religion in politics. Perhaps those people have had enough of that.

[guillaumeb]

17. Are you dismissing the very many progressive theists?

It is likely that, as in the population as a whole, that theistic Democrats represent a very large part of the base.

[trotsky]

19. I am not.

But by promoting religion in politics, you risk alienating the non-religious whose votes we clearly need.

[guillaumeb]

56. And by focusing exclusively on the negative aspects of religion,

do you risk alienating progressive theists like Barack Obama?

[trotsky]

92. Clearly I'm not.

But I do have to wonder about the example you are setting as a Christian. That you think your behavior is OK while claiming to be a Christian is what alienates people.

[guillaumeb]

93. Deflection?

Okay.

[trotsky]

94. I answer your deflections and whataboutisms with the responses they deserve.

I'll let you figure out the rest.

And allow your behavior to show others what you think being a Christian is all about.

[Lordquinton]

20. You made a claim

It's being rebutted, will you discuss it respectfully, or do the usual thing?

Looking down thread not off to a good start...

[guillaumeb]

57. Looking down thread,

it is obvious where the disrespect originates. Interesting to witness what appears to be the almost reflexive need by some to attack any posts that attempt to highlight the progressive manifestations of religion and religious believers such as Barack Obama.

[Lordquinton]

65. Woah, what? Disrespect?

Where did that come from? I was talking about you making a claim and not backing it up, then you doubled down on your claim against actual facts (not an issue of "belief" which you seem to use to just make up anything you want) so, the disrespect is still coming from one source.

[guillaumeb]

76. Of course.

No doubt.

[Lordquinton]

81. No answer

no surprise.

[trotsky]

6. It should also be noted that anytime someone expresses certainty as to "the message of Jesus,"

they should have to demonstrate how they know this in order to claim it.

[yallerdawg]

21. This - or "Oh, well, shit happens." Your choice.

[Mariana]

23. There are only two choices? nt.

[yallerdawg]

24. Faith or disbelief.

There are only two choices.

[Mariana]

26. There are lots of different faiths.

They are all equally true?

[yallerdawg]

27. Faith has one single requirement.

Same as disbelief.

[Lordquinton]

28. Which is...?

[yallerdawg]

32. Do you ever tire of asking the same ridiculous questions over and over?

I'm asking a rhetorical question, of course.

[Mariana]

34. Do you ever tire of refusing to answer simple questions?

If you don't want to discuss these ideas, why introduce them into the thread in the first place?

[yallerdawg]

35. It is very clear what I introduced into the thread.

Your insistence on muddying it up with the same tired questions over and over is not what this discussion is about at all.

Do you want to tell us how misguided and twisted Barack Obama is?

How his horrible belief has been a disservice to America, the world, and progressive values?

He has a twitter feed. Enjoy.

[Mariana]

42. There's no need to be hostile.

Why don't you ever answer these "same tired questions" about your posts? If there are only two choices, faith and no faith, does it matter which faith? Are all faiths equally true?

[guillaumeb]

59. 2 questions were asked.

Why did you ignore both questions?

[Mariana]

66. Because my questions weren't answered, Gil.

You understand how this works by now, I'm sure. You see, I answered your question here, because you weren't so rude as to refuse to answer my questions about your posts in this thread.

[Lordquinton]

49. Another answer to the question "why can't discussion happen"

But that wasn't my question. My question, as always, hasn't been answered.

[Mariana]

52. It must be irrelevant, your question. Or it's old and tired.

Something like that, anyway. As you say, whatever else it may be, it remains unanswered.

I guess when someone is used to hearing folks say stuff like "Praise the Lord!" whenever they come out with something like post 21, it must be really hard when it's not just taken as gospel, so to speak, and people ask for elaboration and specifics.

[Mariana]

29. You didn't answer the question I asked you. nt.

[yallerdawg]

31. Your question...

is completely out of context and irrelevant regarding the OP and MY comment.

[Mariana]

33. I don't think it's irrelevant.

You introduced the idea that there are only two choices into this thread, and stated that one of the two is faith. Faith in what? Does it matter? Are all faiths equally true?

[yallerdawg]

36. If you don't understand faith -

which is a very simple concept - then there is no point in discussion.

I totally understand having faith in nothing - it is just as simple.

I never ask why anyone makes that choice. I'd just like them to recognize that it IS a choice, but they refuse!

Meanwhile, they keep selling and promoting that choice.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

37. So you just want people to accept what you say but deny what others say?

Atheism is not belief nor faith. It is, definitionally, the absence of belief. The absence of belief is not a belief. Not collecting stamps is not a hobby. Barefoot is not a type of shoe. Bald is not a hair color.

It's not that hard. Multiple people have explained it.

[Lordquinton]

53. There is a person here who completely misunderstands this stuff

And it's not me.

It's you.

Believing in nothing is a thing, but it's not atheism.

But thanks nother step closer to Bingo.

[yallerdawg]

55. Do you believe that a basic human right, guaranteed in our constitution...

is the right to worship as we please - regardless of anyone's opinion or critiques?

From wiki:

Atheism is, in a broad sense, the rejection of belief in the existence of deities. In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities. Most inclusively, atheism is the absence of belief that any deities exist. Atheism is contrasted with theism, which, in its most general form, is the belief that at least one deity exists.

You pick your definition. Do I get to pick mine?

[guillaumeb]

60. And if atheism is a position,

that makes it a belief unless the position can be proven.

[Lordquinton]

64. Nope

You know why your are wrong here, no point rehashing old topics that you continue to intentionally get wrong.

[Lordquinton]

63. I see you've been taking notes from G-man

both in making up your own definitions, and in not answering questions.

How is that religious privilege treating ya? you've learned to wield it like a sword, perhaps you can learn to use it like a shield to help others.

[yallerdawg]

67. I don't make up direct quotes on Wiki.

Now, you have the privilege of saying whatever you want.

You just don't like that privilege extended to others who disagree with you.

[Lordquinton]

68. "I don't make up direct quotes on Wiki."

That has to be the funniest thing I've read on here in a while.

[yallerdawg]

69. I'm sure there's no authority you'd consider tolerable or reliable.

After all, isn't that what you are promoting?

[Lordquinton]

70. This has been a hilarious distraction

But you still haven't answered the original question. Why is that?

[yallerdawg]

71. I did answer it.

You all just didn't get the answer you wanted.

[Voltaire2]

73. No you explicitly refused to answer it.

You said: "Your question...is completely out of context and irrelevant regarding the OP and MY comment."

So why are you now claiming that your did answer it?

[Lordquinton]

82. You didn't answer

you gave some cute dodge and a hilarious comment and then tons of this

[yallerdawg]

83. Question: "There are only two choices?"

Answer: "Faith and disbelief."

The entire thread is right here!

[Mariana]

85. Are all faiths equally true?

I understand answering that question could prove embarrassing to you. If you say no, all faiths aren't equal, you disparage the faith of all non-Christian religious people, and also perhaps Christians of other denominations than yours. If you say yes, they're all equal, you deny Christ's position of supremacy.

There's no need for all this dancing around and dissembling and weaseling and dishonesty. Just say, "I refuse to answer that question." I can't speak for anyone else, but if you're honest with me, and tell me outright that you refuse to answer a particular question, I'll stop asking it of you.

[yallerdawg]

88. "Faith and disbelief."

Are you telling me some religions are more believable than others?

Or does your disbelief apply equally to all?

[Lordquinton]

89. That wasn't what I was asking about

You said "Faith has one single requirement. Same as disbelief."

What is the requirement?

[yallerdawg]

90. Some things you must discover for yourself, Grasshopper.

Some people harbor deep resentments when they are told everything. They feel they are losing their free will.

Are you one of them?

[Lordquinton]

95. And some people can't answer simple questions

Are you one of them ?

[yallerdawg]

96. How many questions do you get?

And the answer is: No, I am not one of them!

See how easy?

[Lordquinton]

97. Prove it

Because so far you haven't.

[yallerdawg]

98. I just answered another one of your endless questions!

And yet you want more proof!

I guess this is the default position of faithless disbelievers. Answers will never, ever be enough.

[Lordquinton]

99. Life must be so hard for you

You never answered the initial question asked. And I do get asked a lot of questions, they are almost always asked by theists who are desperately trying to avoid answering questions.

Why are theists so afraid of answers?

[yallerdawg]

100. Answer: Theists are NOT afraid of answers.

Come on, keep 'em coming!

[Lordquinton]

101. They why can't they answer questions

Without first hurtling abuse?

[guillaumeb]

75. Exactly.

And it is on constant display from some here.

[Lordquinton]

50. Hey, another space for atheist bingo

"your question is irrelevant"

[guillaumeb]

58. We can see here an almost reflexive need, or desire,

to frame religion as a negative.

[PragmaticDem]

22. Definitely a man who lives his faith.

[Igel]

25. And he was right.

The greatest commandment, people have told me, is to love your brother (or sister) as yourself.


Uh ...

Not quite right, I think, but that's apparently what their Jesus said.

[Act_of_Reparation]

30. So now we're just naming people who believe in God?

Interesting strategy.

[PragmaticDem]

38. He is talking about a great man and his faith.

This room is for all perspectives.

[Fix The Stupid]

39. Would he be a greater man if he were catholic? n/t

[PragmaticDem]

40. Huh? What a ridiculous question!

[Act_of_Reparation]

43. I thought this room was for all perspectives.

Damn, that was a quick pivot.

[PragmaticDem]

44. Nice try but a big swing and a miss!

[Act_of_Reparation]

47. I've missed you, Justin.

[PragmaticDem]

48. Finally one of you got it!

Hugs and kisses and misses!

[marble falls]

74. Looks like you finally 'got it', too, Justin!

[Hassin Bin Sober]

80. Thoughts and prayers!!

[Act_of_Reparation]

84. Probably shouldn't have said that.

Guess I'm gonna have to get my lulz elsewhere.

[Act_of_Reparation]

41. With the implication being the man's faith was instrumental to his greatness.

A cursory glance shows a much more pragmatic Barak Obama, driven not by passion or faith but by practical necessity. Which is why he was blasting terrorists from 40,000 feet instead of turning the other cheek, as instructed by the late JC.

[PragmaticDem]

45. Your attempt to to minimize Obama's faith is noted.

[Act_of_Reparation]

46. By someone who matters, hopefully.

[guillaumeb]

102. Explain that one to President Obama.

And explain to him how he REALLY feels about his faith.

[Act_of_Reparation]

103. Not interested.

I don't have a pathological need for validation.

[guillaumeb]

104. Not surprised.

He might object to your attempt to speak for him.

[Act_of_Reparation]

105. Or he might not.

Don't know. Don't care.

[guillaumeb]

86. No, I am giving examples of progressive theists.

And apparently inspiring others to post similarly titled things.

[Act_of_Reparation]

91. "I am giving examples of progressive theists"

The fact you say this unironically is telling.

[cilla4progress]

51. Why do people always seem to

Fight here?

[guillaumeb]

62. A good question.

An excellent question.

Some things seem to trigger intense debate. Religion is one of those things.

Religion, in my view, is like language and nationalism in that they are all aspects of tribalism. They bring people together even as they also divide people.

[edhopper]

54. I wish

he had not forgiven everyone in the Bush Administration and the Wall street bankers who crashed the Economy.

His turning the other cheek was partially responsible for the rise of the Tea Party and the loss of the Congress in 2010.

[guillaumeb]

61. Agreed. eom

[Act_of_Reparation]

72. And yet he was able to compartmentalize his faith and his job in other areas.

Drone strikes, for example. Christ, I'm sure, would have disapproved, but Christ was never in charge of national security.

[samnsara]

77. love that man!

[guillaumeb]

78. He stayed polite through 8 years of racist obstruction.

Trump, and many whites, hate him because he represents what Trump, and most racist whites, can never be.

[Voltaire2]

79. It isn't clear, to me anyway, that this was the best strategy.

Certainly where we are now is in part a reflection of how the Democratic Party and its leaders positioned itself and responded to the racist obstruction by the Republican Party.

[guillaumeb]

87. We agree on this.

Refusing to hold Bush/Cheney and the big banks to account was, in my opinion, a bad strategy.