Religion
Related: About this forumReiteration: Atheism is Not a Unified Thing
Category 1: Many religionists tend to think of Atheism of the Big A variety. They mean what is sometimes called the "New Atheism," which often takes the form of activism against organized religion and attempts to disprove things. There are people who do that among atheists, but they aren't anything like a majority of atheists. In fact, "New Atheists" are probably the smallest category of atheism, if not the quietest. Many are highly educated, as well as being excellent speakers and writers. Their voices are louder than their numbers are large.
Category 2: There is also what I call "Passive Atheism." That category probably describes the vast majority of atheists, who simply don't believe in supernatural entities or any other occult occurrences. They're not itching for a fight with religionists, and probably won't even get into a discussion with them if they try to start one. Their non-belief is sufficient for their needs, and isn't really a matter for discussion. They don't really care what you think.
Category 3: There are other categories of atheists. Some atheists will be happy to discuss non-belief and compare it to anyone's religion. Most of these are familiar with the major religions and their doctrines and scriptures. They can jump into the conversation armed with a good deal of knowledge. This group doesn't really care what you believe, but will be happy to explain to you things you might not realize about your beliefs. You will often find people in this category involved in discussions of religion, wherever they might occur.
Category 4: Another category is the "Leave Me the Heck Alone" atheist. This category includes people who are dead-set on nobody being pressured by religionists. They also don't care what you believe, as long as you keep it to yourself and don't impose it on others. This category is fairly inclusive, and is embraced by many other types of atheists. This category can be downright militant about their right not to be coerced by religionists in any way. They don't want to hear your prayers at public meetings. They don't want your religion presented to their children or any other children in your public schools. They don't want your 10 Commandment monuments in the public square, either. They want everyone to be "Left the Heck Alone" to determine their own thinking on such subjects, thank you very much. They will take you to court about this, and they'll win.
What kind of atheist am I? I fit into the last two categories quite neatly.
BigmanPigman
(51,632 posts)I guess I am classified as "All Of The Above".
MineralMan
(146,333 posts)I see no point to it. I'm not into evangelism for a non-belief in any way. In some ways, I find that to be as noxious as religious evangelism.
But, I've been all three of the others. These days, I'm the last two. Throughout, I've been in the final category, and am adamant about that.
I try very hard not to be obnoxious about atheism, though. That never works.
OriginalGeek
(12,132 posts)Usually by my wife. We have fun.
MineralMan
(146,333 posts)DetlefK
(16,423 posts)Their lack of belief is not rooted in some religious/philosophical argument that convinced them. They simply don't care.
I'm a category 2 atheist: loves to discuss but itsn't really bothered by religion.
And I can't stand category 3. It's one thing to have a religious opinion and talk about it. It's another thing to offend everybody because you're trying to make a point.
Reminds me of a joke:
Q: How do you find the vegan at a party?
A: You don't have to find him. He will tell you about it.
ExciteBike66
(2,374 posts)I'm confused by the lack of labels in the OP, maybe.
MineralMan
(146,333 posts)Sorry for not labeling well.
DetlefK
(16,423 posts)You know...
MineralMan
(146,333 posts)They are silent unless First Amendment rights are the topic. Then they speak up.
ExciteBike66
(2,374 posts)but I think that in the context of the OP they would actually be category 1 (New Atheists).
MineralMan
(146,333 posts)of itself. Category 4 is silent unless religionists attempt to impose belief on non-believers. Then it speaks, usually through legal action. Otherwise, you wouldn't even know.
whathehell
(29,095 posts)They're the ones best illustrated by the boy in the T shirt -- They are the noisy, insulting types frequently found on DU -- those who won't leave you "the heck alone" if you're not an atheist.
Moostache
(9,897 posts)They do not want to have a chance to tell you what they believe or a safe venue to congregate with like-minded people; they want the chance to tell you WHAT to believe, HOW to believe, WHEN and WHERE to believe and most importantly they desire that POWER over others more than anything else (even those that are reticent to admit it to themselves or others).
Anything that is discordant with their beliefs puts you into the category of moral deviant and unworthy of the same respect they feel entitled to just by name dropping their selected fantasy character - be that Jesus, Mohammed, Buddha, Thor, Zeus, Osiris, or the FSM (although I must admit, the lure of his noodly appendage is strong).
To me it really is quite simple, treat your religion with the same decorum and demureness that responsible men treat their penis - they are very proud of it, take great lengths to protect and nourish it and they love it; they do not whip it out in public to show everyone and they NEVER share it with children or try to coerce others into "enjoying" it either.
For the faithful who can clear that hurdle, please proceed with whatever batshit crazy fantasy you wish...for those that can't, well, castration is always an effective deterrent.
MineralMan
(146,333 posts)deity one can actually eat without some magical transubstantiation. The FSM has that in its favor, although I doubt its god-like powers.
Permanut
(5,651 posts)this changes everything!
MineralMan
(146,333 posts)when taking part in communion with the FSM.
Moostache
(9,897 posts)The reformation league of Pastafarians, Eastern feast of the Central States in South America for 2011 declared, in the Diet of Worms (no Catholic pun intended...LOL) that for one to ingest any part of the FSM, they would be cast out into the eternal pit of Marinara Sauce and sufffer an endless simmering!!!
Repent and take in much Garlic Bread as penance for your transgressions before its too late!
Oh damn....there I go slipping into religion on myself again...d'oh!
MineralMan
(146,333 posts)of having a delectable deity? I reject such notions and suggest that the only proper worship is to put the FSM inside yourself, so you will truly have inner peace.
Permanut
(5,651 posts)I'm an agnostic. I don't have enough information to conclude whether or not there is a Swiss watchmaker behind this elegant, beautiful universe. Don't need to know, really. I belong to a Lutheran church, as a way to participate in their community service to the poor, but I"m a really poor Lutheran.
Those you describe above, and now including you, are among those who I have in mind when I no longer say the Pledge of Allegiance ("..with liberty and justice for all.. , or sing the national anthem ("..o'er the land of the free.." ,
And just because I add this every chance I get, to any conversation where I can wedge it in, this is NOT a Christian nation.
MineralMan
(146,333 posts)sfwriter
(3,032 posts)I've met them in all faiths. They may cling to a belief in the "social good" of religion while denouncing every supernatural aspect of faith. I've seen interviews with some who are self-aware enough to know that they need the structure, family ties, contacts, or the social legitimacy of religion and thus stay in it. But make no mistake, they are atheists. In some locals and some cultures, faith is a requirement, and open atheism can result in ostracization, family alienation, or death.
MineralMan
(146,333 posts)More, probably, than anyone is aware of. Few, however, are vocal about it, even in private conversations. There are even atheists in the pulpit. Plenty of political figures, as well. Again, more than people know.
The social opportunities of church membership are enough to keep people involved in many cases.
sfwriter
(3,032 posts)She said the frank and open discussions of a few of us "vocal" atheists gave her the courage to do it. And as a Unitarian, it didn't matter a wit. She could keep her job, her friends, and her standing. I learned to be an accepting atheist from that experience.
Voltaire2
(13,194 posts)It was truly horrifying. Nobody got out of it alive.
MineralMan
(146,333 posts)Scary stuff...
PragmaticDem
(320 posts)know more about religion than believers. Internet atheists are well something different.
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)Where they stand religiously is irrelevant.
PragmaticDem
(320 posts)But my experience on the internet talking religion with atheists and the religious have not been pleasant for the most part.
Voltaire2
(13,194 posts)trotsky
(49,533 posts)PragmaticDem
(320 posts)Voltaire2
(13,194 posts)in this forum as something different.
Or perhaps you misspoke?
PragmaticDem
(320 posts)My experience on the internet is not as pleasant talking religion. That includes both religious and atheists.
As to this room well as I said before it seems personalities and old scores gets in the way of debate.
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)And I don't think old grudges are particularly common here. Only a few regular posters have spent considerable time posting here.
I'd say privilege and the determined will to deny it is a far most significant roadblock to productive debate in these parts.
PragmaticDem
(320 posts)Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)Virtually every thread on DU has both in ample quantities.
PragmaticDem
(320 posts)Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)PragmaticDem
(320 posts)Unproductive is in the eye of the beholder.
Voltaire2
(13,194 posts)and those that do are generally from very new posters engaged in obvious nonsense.
PragmaticDem
(320 posts)AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Can't have that kind of trash tracking mud all over.
PragmaticDem
(320 posts)Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)DU spent the past year banhammering posters left and right. The Primary group made this place look like the ball pit at the Greenwich, Connecticut Chuck E. Cheese.
PragmaticDem
(320 posts)trotsky
(49,533 posts)you've been on DU less than a month, but you seem very comfortable making sweeping statements about this group as if you have a long history in it. Why is that?
PragmaticDem
(320 posts)AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Takes a good 10+ years for the conversation to get where it is now.
PragmaticDem
(320 posts)AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)I tend to think of myself as an agnostic atheist. I could give two shits what any individual believes except in the following circumstances:
1. Political influence/government collusion/First amendment violations/Lemon test failures.
2. Fraud. Just outright ripping people the fuck off with religious guilt or lies.
3. Guilt. Trying to control people with guilt trips to modify behavior. Example; religious 'oooh well, abortion might be legal, but it should be rare because ooga booga' whatever. That kind of shit.
Unless we're talking an issue like those three, I don't engage people about their faith.
As for my agnosticism about religious claims, to be clear, current dominant religion claims are precisely as impressive to me, as a Christian is impressed by claims about gods like Odin, or Eris. Which is to say, not at all.
Iggo
(47,571 posts)Depends on who the fuck I'm talking to.
utopian
(1,093 posts)Mostly 4.
Response to MineralMan (Original post)
Post removed
MineralMan
(146,333 posts)Your sarcasm notwithstanding. I wonder what your point might have been with that reply.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)Self-awareness is an excellent virtue. If only we possessed it, true?
MineralMan
(146,333 posts)BTW, I did not alert on your post. I never alert on replies to me.
PragmaticDem
(320 posts)MineralMan
(146,333 posts)trotsky
(49,533 posts)I mean, only atheists are bad here, right?
For the jury that will probably get called for THIS post, this needs to be added:
PragmaticDem
(320 posts)And your bad atheists meme is getting old.
PragmaticDem
(320 posts)And I don't believe atheists are bad and my post doesn't say that.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)You just think "for the most part" it's those nasty atheists causing all the problems.
You're not fooling anyone other than yourself.
PragmaticDem
(320 posts)what you are doing.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)and then making posts like #46.
I'll be happy to discuss any issue with you. Just don't be a religious bigot - I don't get along well with those.
PragmaticDem
(320 posts)trotsky
(49,533 posts)Like I did with you pointing out your post.
PragmaticDem
(320 posts)trotsky
(49,533 posts)I pointed out where you failed to follow your own advice.
You claim you want serious discussion. So let's go. Show me what you're capable of.
PragmaticDem
(320 posts)It was an honest criticism.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Is this a real thing, or one of those straw things? You talking here, or elsewhere?
trotsky
(49,533 posts)So the group seems to be imaginary.
PragmaticDem
(320 posts)Not here but in general.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)For now, it's only your personal opinion and shall be treated as such.
Still waiting for you to show me what real discussion looks like. Are you going to start soon? You claimed what's what you wanted, instead of this pointless back-and-forth snipping.
So let's go. Let's discuss something. Unless you really do like the back-and-forth snipping. I'll play the game you want until I get bored.
PragmaticDem
(320 posts)Follow your own advice! Go on if you feel the need to, last word and all.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)But thanks for demonstrating your claims were false. I sincerely offered to have this discussion you claimed you wanted, but you chose another path.
I'll be looking forward to your future posts, to see if they actually foster discussion or are just attacks like this. Take care.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)PragmaticDem
(320 posts)AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)It would be nice if you could (keeping in mind that some forms of direct criticism should be avoided lest someone alert) be a little more clear as to just whom your shade was targeted at.
PragmaticDem
(320 posts)MineralMan
(146,333 posts)It was a sarcastic comment that was more general than that.
PragmaticDem
(320 posts)The new atheists group for the most part.
PJMcK
(22,052 posts)Well written essay, MineralMan. I've enjoyed your religious-themed posts over the past several weeks.
MineralMan
(146,333 posts)in this group. Slightly. Thanks for your reply and kind words!
Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)They brought a lot of people out of hiding, just standing up and saying "I'm an atheist" is still brave, but more accepted. Dawkins, Hitchens, and company really fostered what we have today.
So of course theists have to crap on them at every opportunity. They challenged religious privlige, so they must be eliminated. Good thing burning at the stake is no longer a thing...
Mariana
(14,861 posts)They're always doing mean, rotten things to religious people, like writing books, making speeches, putting up billboards, wearing T-shirts, you know, really awful stuff like that. Some of them even go so far as to file suit when some government entity violates the law. The horror!
Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)If we were to flip the script it would be pointing at people like the Pope and dhali lama.