Is Faith Evidence of Facts or Truth? Whose Faith?

[MineralMan]

So I've been told by some. If so, then what of the faith of Muslims, Hindus, and even the Hmong man two doors from my house who follows the old Hmong animist religion? Muslims have faith that Mohammed is the true prophet. Hindus have faith that their deities are real and have the powers attributed to them. My Hmong neighbor has faith that there are spirits inhabiting everything, from the rocks in his yard to the closet in his home where he has a shrine dedicated to his house spirit.

People have had faith in many things throughout history, and still do. There are numerous creation stories, all of which are part of scriptures and oral traditions and are believed by people of faith. No, there's no physical evidence that those creation stories have anything to do with the actual origins of the Universe, this planet, and the creatures that inhabit it. But, those stories are believed through solid, fervent faith.

Faith is what it is, but it does not constitute evidence of factual events or anything else. If it did, all of the stories would be true. All deities would be real, and all religions would be equally correct and worthy of belief.

Most Christians are quick to mock the faith of, say, Hindus. They will tell you that the multiple Hindu deities are false, because...uh...the Christian God is the only God. They have faith in that. But, the Hindus have equally strong faith that their story is the correct one.

Faith is not evidence. Faith is just faith. Evidence is evidence, and it's available for examination and inspection. Faith must be taken on faith alone, since it has no evidence to offer. There is no actual evidence that the things believed on faith are real. That's why belief requires faith.

I like evidence. I don't believe things without evidence. I don't mind if others do, but I treat all stories believed through faith the same. I say, "Show me something real." I think that anyone who believes anything, based on their faith, should be equally prepared to believe anything else that is believed by others through faith.

If not, then, I have to wonder, and ask: Why is your faith superior to the faith of others? Show me some evidence that your faith is the correct one.

And that's my homily for this Sunday morning.

[MineralMan]

2. For me, atheism is not a belief at all.

I simply don't believe that any supernatural entities exist. Atheism does not require belief.

[MaryMagdaline]

44. From where do you extract the ideal?

What political speeches, movies, works of art move you?

As a non-believer I still am moved by religious images and stories. I am wondering if other non-believers are the same.

[MineralMan]

48. The ideal is really simple, and has been derived in almost

every culture. It is the principle of reciprocity. Treat all as you would want to be treated. No other rule is needed.

As for art, music, etc., religion has funded those thing almost forever. As a musician, I have performed many sacred works of music. My atheism is irrelevant in those cases.

[marylandblue]

3. I don't believe anybody takes the existence of anything on faith

You Hmong frield believes as he does because it is his ancestral tradition, or he saw something he couldn't explain, or he feels the spirits intuitively, but he doesn't just "have faith" without evidence. Paul did not have that either, even though he said he did, he still gave a reason for his belief - he saw Jesus on the road to Damascus.

[MineralMan]

4. People right here in this group have claimed to believe things

on faith alone. With regard to Paul's story, we have only his story. I don't believe his story is true. You might, but were not present. We don't even know for certain who wrote that story, or Paul's letters, for that matter. No original writings exist, only copies.

[marylandblue]

6. I don't believe the people who claim to believe on faith alone

They are more likely to be unwilling to admit the reason. Otherwise why don't they believe in unicorns? Did they flip a coin. Heads I believe in God, tails I believe in unicorns?

I believe Paul had some kind of religious experience involving hallucinations and physical symptoms, but I don't believe he actually saw Jesus. Nonetheless, that was the reason he gave for becoming Christian.

On edit: Scholarship varies on Paul, but many historians believe at least some of his letters are authentic, and I am inclined to go with that view.

[MineralMan]

8. Okay.

Faith exists. No question about that. I do not believe that faith, however, is evidence of anything other than faith.

[marylandblue]

11. I agree with that

Whatever evidence they provide is evidence enough for them. But science works because it provides a means to test evidence against reality, so it actually finds out the truth. Once we figured science out, a lot of what used to be considered evidence was deemed invalid for many, but others still hold on to those older forms of evidence.

[MaryMagdaline]

45. I believe something happened to Paul to turn him

From going after Christians to joining and then leading him. I don't believe he is a con man. (Misogynist and elitist but not a con). People have converted. I have seen conservatives turn to liberal. They saw something. They felt something. If it was all at once it could be dramatic. But then, it might be my need to believe in s conversion/salvation myth. But is it healthy or not to believe we can change? Psychologists need to weigh in.

[yallerdawg]

5. And yet you see evidence of faith everyday.

The church, the mosque, the temple, the synagogue, the shrine - from the soup kitchen to the charity hospital.

“The heart has its reasons which reason knows nothing of... We know the truth not only by the reason, but by the heart." ― Blaise Pascal

[MineralMan]

7. Yes, of course there is evidence of faith.

I did not say there wasn't at any time. Clearly, people have faith. But that faith is evidence of nothing except that faith. It is a tautology.

[yallerdawg]

9. When it comes to religion and spirituality...

THAT is where it starts.

Faith first.

[MineralMan]

10. So, what is your answer to my question in

the last paragraph?

[marylandblue]

12. I've met many people who are religious but do not believe "faith first."

They believe that the Bible is accurate history. Read, for example, "Evidence that Demands a Verdict" by Josh McDowell. All about proving the Bible is accurate. And there are many books like that.

So even in matters of faith, not all people agree on what faith is.

[yallerdawg]

18. You're arguing that people don't start with faith...

that their religious texts are historical records? Even is the absence of proof and evidence?

I'm confused.

Y'all got a real hang up on "Biblical Literalism."

Yes, it's an argument you'd LIKE to have - based on YOUR evidence and proof.

It's a distraction.

[marylandblue]

28. I am arguing that people give reasons for their faith

If they take the Bible literally, they have a reason. If they don't take it literally, they have a reason. I am arguing that people have reasons they believe things are true or not true. Selecting a religion is not like selecting a flavor of ice cream.

[Bradshaw3]

13. Except that is not where it starts

It starts with the culture, society and geopolitics of where one is born. Is it a coincidence that hundreds of millions of Muslims happen to live in the Middle East, or millions of Catholics live in Italy and Ireland? They were indoctrinated with "faith" from an early age. Logic and stories were used on children to give the this "mystical" faith, and it is extremely difficult to part from family members and a society that reinforce that "faith". Once they have it, then logic is tossed aside in favor of faith.

[yallerdawg]

14. Are you familiar with Santa Claus and the Easter bunny?

At some point, we are not children anymore.

We make our choices, we consider our faith. If it speaks to us, we go on.

I don't think people of faith appreciate being identified as mindless automatons. Especially if they are willing to die for that faith, to live their lives according to their faith.

[Voltaire2]

22. So it isn't faith first.

First it is indoctrination and culture, then perhaps some people "make choices and consider their faith". I think most people who are religious don't do that, they never question their indoctrination and culture and instead just live an unexamined life.

"Especially if they are willing to die for that faith" - like for example jihaddist suicide bombers?

[yallerdawg]

23. Indoctrination and culture is not faith.

"Jihadist suicide bombers" are not examples of people willing to die for their "faith" - they are willing to die for an ideology of indoctrination and culture. That's why terrorists and suicide bombers are not representative of any "faith."

[marylandblue]

29. Of course it's faith, it's just one that makes you very uncomfortable

Because of what those people are willing to do for their faith.

[Voltaire2]

38. Oh but they would emphatically disagree with you.

I have read here that it is condescending and rude to question or reject assertions of faith based beliefs. So I guess that only applies to your faith based beliefs, others are not given the same deference.

[Bradshaw3]

24. Are you familiar with Odin and Zeus?

At some point, due to war, politics, geography, new "gods" come along, shockingly in support of whatever prevailing winds blow in a certain culture. Did millions of Englishmen suddenly change their "faith" once Henry VIII did? Some didn't but most did, and saved their heads because they suddenly decided Catholicism wasn't for them after all.

You think the ones who still had faith prove something. I say the many more who abruptly found a different faith proves a lot more, as do the vast majority of believers in a religion who share the same beliefs as their parents, grandparents, countrymen, etc. They all just happen to have faith in that very same religion because it speaks to them? Your argument would be more credible if millions in fact made choices of religion other than the one they were brought up in.

And dying for their faith doesn't persuade as to the legitimacy of a faith based on rational decision-making, rather the opposite as we've seen in northern Ireland, 9-11, and on and on and on.

[gibraltar72]

15. Neither.

[shraby]

17. Religion itself probably started millions of years ago as an attempt to

explain why someone died. One minute they are talking and interacting and the next they weren't. This must have been pretty scary to early mankind.

So they came up with a story that explained it, and the Medicine man of the tribe continued it and passed it down until in recorded history, we have the explanation in printed form.

[MineralMan]

19. Could be.

Or, once the evolving human species became able to wonder about things and developed abstract language, religion was developed to explain the things they wondered about. Death isn't the only mystery, by any means.

People have arguments about the origins of religion. Fear and wonder are a couple of the theories. Divine revelation is another, but has no evidence or any possibility of evidence, so it is usually not seriously considered.

That's not my question, though. My question in this thread is: If faith is evidence of fact, then are not all religions equally true?

That question has so far not been addressed in any of the replies in this thread.

[Voltaire2]

20. "millions of years ago"

There is no evidence of burial rituals older than at most 300,000 years, and that one site is not clearly a burial site at all. 100,000 - 30,000 years ago gets you closer to any sort of evidence for religious burial practices, and there is no evidence for theistic religions until the agricultural revolution.

[shraby]

47. I realize the first burial was a Neanderthal burial around 75,000 years ago, that I can

remember reading about. They had put flowers on his chest.

Since man was around much longer than that, they probably also wondered about why someone was living one minute and not the next, they were gone. If they had a language of any sort, which they must have to be able to hunt in groups, I would surmise they discussed it around the campfire.

[Ferrets are Cool]

21. Well said...

I have faith in proof based science. I don't faith in fairy tales...especially those that espouse a benevolent god. The same benevolent god that supposedly was responsible for this:

"And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the Lord. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them"

[MineralMan]

25. Ah, Yes, the fable of Elisha and the Two Bears

It is remarkable how many Bible Believers are unfamiliar with that fable.

[yallerdawg]

26. You keep insisting on a literal basis in faith.

You're not correct.

For example:



http://www.pewforum.org/2017/12/12/americans-say-religious-aspects-of-christmas-are-declining-in-public-life/

1 out of 4 Christians don't consider the Bible factual on what many consider to be prime dogma!

Now ask them about "Elisha and the Two Bears."

You all are trapped in the past if this is your argument against "faith."

[MineralMan]

27. Still, however, 76% do believe all that stuff.

That is a sizable majority. And for individual points, it's closer to 90%.

Perhaps I am speaking of that majority. Could that be, do you think?

As for Elisha and the Two Bears, I'll wager with you that over 75% of Christians have never read or heard of that story. I sometimes ask Christians about that. So far, not one I have asked knew the fable or story or fact.

I refer them to 2 Kings, Chapter 2 if they are not familiar with the tale.

[marylandblue]

37. Fine if they want to consider it a book of fables

But fables are, by definition, not true, while faith is said to be belief that something is something is true. Truth ends up taking a back seat to fables so that we don't have to feel bad about abandoning the stories and rituals we learned as a child.

Honestly, this is wht.I maintain my own connection to religion. I like the stories, the rituals and the music. But I view it as a cultural practice not a faith or a guide to life.

[Voltaire2]

40. Wow! An entire 25% (almost) of Christians don't believe in utter nonsense!

That sure is something. Perhaps not something you actually want to use as a data point for the argument you were making, but nevertheless, something.

[Ferrets are Cool]

46. It seems obvious to ME that they do not actually believe

in the words of the man they worship. If they did, they would actually follow the beatitudes.

What is faith without belief?

THE EIGHT BEATITUDES OF JESUS

"Blessed are the poor in spirit,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Blessed are they who mourn,
for they shall be comforted.

Blessed are the meek,
for they shall inherit the earth.

Blessed are they who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
for they shall be satisfied.

Blessed are the merciful,
for they shall obtain mercy.

Blessed are the pure of heart,
for they shall see God.

Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they shall be called children of God.

Blessed are they who are persecuted for the sake of righteousness,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven."

Gospel of St. Matthew 5:3-10

I've been around ""christians" all my life. I was brought up in a pentecostal family. I was a practicing "holy roller" till I turned 25, then
I began to see the light. In all my 61 years, I've never known more than 5 people who actually followed the teachings of christ. And even those people were probably closet racists, but just did not air it out in public. All the rest were liars, cheats, law breakers and worst hypocrites. Now I know that christ will "wash away your sins" but one should at least strive NOT to sin. They dont even try to hide their sins. It's appalling.
I would NEVER EVER try to convert anyone to my way of thinking, but I will admit that it does bother me when they treat others as contemptible and in need of saving because they havent accepted jesus as their lord and savior.

[pandr32]

30. Excellent post!

We live in a world full of different cultures and beliefs and should take time to learn about them. If we take the various religions and break them into mythological elements we would see common themes. We could begin to understand that they are all part of the human experience story of how we have tried to make sense of our place in the universe and the forces of nature.

[MineralMan]

31. Thanks.

Interestingly enough, nobody has yet answered the questions I raised, actually. Especially unanswered is the last question, which inquires into the superiority of one's faith in comparison with others' faiths.

Perhaps that question cannot be answered.

[pandr32]

32. Ingroup/Outgroup Bias

Along the way, and particularly with the institutionalizing of religions, we convince ourselves that ours is right. Faith is nothing more than confidence, yet in Christianity, it is a tenant. The Spanish Inquisition didn't help much

[MineralMan]

34. Yes. Philosophically, though, it is a real question

for people to answer. No answers so far, though, from believers.

[MineralMan]

50. No. It is simply neutral non-belief.

I am one person, with no deity to sell. My non-belief isn't in competition with anything.

[Sneederbunk]

33. Always seems to be much non-believer angst at this time of year.

[MineralMan]

35. Does there? It doesn't seems so to me.

I'm not feeling any angst. I'm happy to celebrate the Christian holiday. I have many friends who are Christians, and there's no bad time for exchanging gifts and good feelings.

Religion is always an interesting topic of conversation. There are so many religions and so many people to adhere to them. It makes for a lively discussion, at least sometimes.

[Sneederbunk]

36. Things will probably calm down on this board after Christmas until

at least Easter.

[marylandblue]

39. This board is never calm

[Iggo]

41. Faith exists independent of Fact.

[MaryMagdaline]

43. Ok here goes. From orthodox to apostate

Humans create God. God and Gods are an ideal, a vision. Our creation stories, our mythologies, our icons, express Truth. Some ideal. I can extract these Truths from Old Testament, New Testament, Koran, Hindu and Greek Mythology, great works of literature, beautiful paintings.

I can celebrate Christmas with almost as much joy as a devout Christian knowing none of it to be factual. Yet tears come to my eyes when I hear Oh Holy Night, when I see a beautiful manger scene, the adoration, the Annunciation. Because all of the images are a desire for something. A savior. Return to innocence. (Even the "return" word I used displays the entrenched myth that I come from an Eden.) culturally, why did my people need to create an Eden? Why the need for a savior? Why the idea sin?

I cannot defend the creation/savior myths but I know that a good chunk of the world have creation myths. Maybe too much frontal lobe activity. Maybe genetic neurosis or psychosis.

To paraphrase joe Biden, I know longer care what your religion is but show me your religion and I will tell you where your values are. If you create the god of liviticus I know you to be a cruel sadistic person. If you quote sermon on the Mount I call you Christ-follower and brother or sister in Christ. It matters not to me if jimmy carter is a schizophrenic who sees dead people when he prays, I know that he has created a God or fantasizes a God who tells the Truth. Perhaps over time, our created Gods will direct us more and more to do good for humanity. I have no problem with being dictated to by the Ideal, so long as it is my Ideal.

[Eko]

52. I have a friend who has a magic rock he keeps in his pocket.

Seriously believes it.
To answer your last question, people don't feel their faith is superior to the faith of others, history is rife with proof of that. A modern day example here in the ol USA is the war on Christmas.

[TheDebbieDee]

53. "Faith" is the excuse that is used to explain the non-acceptance of facts...

And I don't believe anyone's "faith" supercedes anyone else's "faith".

[bitterross]

54. It is clearly not possible for everyone to be right about their God(s).

But it is entirely possible for everyone to be wrong.

Ponder that.