Chinese Muslims shackled by police state, high-tech surveillance

[guillaumeb]

From the article:

Nobody knows what happened to the Uighur student after he returned to China from Egypt and was taken away by police......

The student’s friends think he joined the thousands — possibly tens of thousands — of people, rights groups and academics estimate, who have been spirited without trial into secretive detention camps for alleged political crimes that range from having extremist thoughts to merely traveling or studying abroad.........


The government has referred to its detention program as “vocational training,” but its main purpose appears to be indoctrination.......

Chinese authorities had extended the scope of the program to Uighur students abroad. And Egypt, once a sanctuary for Uighurs to study Islam, began deporting scores of Uighurs to China.

To read more:

http://religionnews.com/2017/12/17/chinese-muslims-shackled-by-police-state-high-tech-surveillance/

There is often talk of theocracies, where a country's laws are based on religious texts. What do we call an officially atheist country that persecutes theists? An atheocracy?

[Voltaire2]

1. China regulates religion, it does not forbid it.

Party members have to be atheists, but there is no general prohibition on religion. It is not an "atheocracy" which is a nonsense word you just made up. It is a secular state, a totalitarian marxist one party system that has evolved from a classic marxist-leninist/maoist economic system to a mixed economic model combining state controlled and market based economic structures.

We also have persecuted muslims since september 2001. We are also by law a secular state. Are we an atheocracy?

[guillaumeb]

2. An officially atheist, secular state.

Where an affirmation of atheism is a requirement for success and a non-affirmation is a guarantee of second class citizenship.

Showing that intolerance is a human fault, and that atheists in power can be just as intolerant as their theistic counterparts.

Agreed?

I felt a-theocracy was less awkward than non-theistic country with theocratic tendencies.

[MineralMan]

3. Do you know anyone who is Chinese,

and who lived in China as a citizen. Or have you just read about them, Guy? My primary client is such a man. He left China after the Tiananmen Square incident. He is now a US citizen with a PhD in neurobiology. We talk a lot about China. His parents still live there, and he visits them every year. I know a Chinese expatriate. You know how to read religionnews.com. You trust that source?

[guillaumeb]

14. So your one personal story outweighs this one?

I understand, but your comments actually refute nothing. Nice try.

[MineralMan]

15. No answer to my question? Just another question?

Oh, well...

[guillaumeb]

19. No. I assume that you intended your comment

as a sort of refutation of the article. And given that your comment about this one person (whom you know on a business level) contained nothing constituting a refutation of this article, I must confess that I dismissed the comment as irrelevant.

[Mariana]

31. He didn't make a comment, he asked you two questions.

You haven't answered either one.

You should stop assuming things and trying to read people's minds, Gil. You'e not very good at it.

[guillaumeb]

33. It is obvious what was intended.

Even to a non-mind reader such as me.

[Voltaire2]

5. That is utter nonsense.

Membership in the communist party is no longer a requirement for success and hasn't been for around 30 years.

I did witness one incident of religious regulation when I was in China last year. There is a Buddhist temple on a hill in back of the Forbidden City, it is a spectacular walk up the hill, a stunning view, and the shrine at the top is quite beautiful. There was a guard at the temple to strictly enforce the rules that forbid tourists like me from rudely photographing the Buddhist pilgrims who come to the shrine to pray. And there were indeed pilgrims praying at the shrine.

Meanwhile China is full of billionaires and millionaires and has a huge and rapidly expanding middle class almost all of whom are not CP members. The market economy has made your description ludicrous.

[guillaumeb]

16. So you too are an expert on China?

Interesting. Perhaps you are also an expert on Tibet?

I understand why some non-theists are uncomfortable when confronted by examples of intolerance that cannot be blamed on religion, but the atheistic-based intolerance of China's ruling class is well documented.

[Voltaire2]

32. Nice deflection.

No I am not an expert on China, I just work with Chinese co-workers and have spent time with them in China, and have had many interesting discussions with my colleagues about life in modern China.

What is your expertise based on?

I understand why some non-theists are uncomfortable when confronted by examples of intolerance that cannot be blamed on religion

WTF? I don't and never have blamed all intolerance on religion. Please cite one example of my doing so. Nor have I seen anyone else here make this sort of claim. Once again you are posting UTTER NONSENSE.

Ironically you are the one desperately attempting to invent an

atheistic-based intolerance of China's ruling class

where none exists. So it is understandable why you would invent a mirror activity in others.

China is a secular totalitarian state that suppresses all dissent of any sort. ALL DISSENT. ANY SORT. Kind of a problem for your theory.

Let's start with Buddhism. You claim that Tibet is an example of "atheistic-based intolerance", but Buddhism is protected and its practice is widespread throughout China, including in Tibet. What is being suppressed in Tibet is Buddhist Tibetan separatism, not Buddhism in general. Tibet is not going to be allowed to separate from China.

Lets move on to Islam, another religion that is widely practiced in China. Here again, what is being suppressed is separatist movements within Islam, not the practice of the religion. Thus the Hui muslims enjoy broad religious freedom, while the Uyghurs are strictly regulated. The difference between them is that the Uyghurs are considered to be in a state of rebellion against the government. What is being suppressed is Islamic separatism in Xinjiang, not Islam in general. Xinjiang is not going to be allowed to separate from China.

You can peacefully practice any religion you choose in China, but if you choose to engage in anti-government activity of any sort you are going to feel the heavy hand of a totalitarian state.

[guillaumeb]

34. An officially atheist state.

It was meant to be an officially atheist state. Intolerance, as I have said many times, is a human fault, and when the ones practicing intolerance are theists, some few here are quick to insist that the intolerance is part of the theism.

But when the intolerance is practiced by atheists, suddenly, for that same few, there is no connection.

[Voltaire2]

35. Yes it is officially atheist.

It is not imposing atheism on its citizens. If it were, you might have a point.

[guillaumeb]

36. The point is intolerance.

And it never officially imposed atheism on anyone, but education, and jobs, and promotion, and decent housing all depended on being a party member. And to be a party member................

It was much the same in Russia.

[Voltaire2]

38. Being dense is not attractive.

"but education, and jobs, and promotion, and decent housing all depended on being a party member" - that stopped a long time ago. Do catch up.

[guillaumeb]

39. It all stopped officially.

Or do you literally take everything at face value?

Many things are illegal under the law, but that does not mean that that illegal actions are not taken.

On China:

F

reedom of religion in China is provided for in the Constitution of the People's Republic of China,[1] with an important caveat: the government protects what it calls "normal religious activity," defined in practice as activities that take place within government-sanctioned religious organizations and registered places of worship. Although the dynastic governments of imperial China also claimed responsibility for the practice of religion, human rights bodies such as United States Commission on International Religious Freedom (USCIRF) have criticized this differentiation as falling short of international standards for the protection of religious freedom.[2]
China's five officially sanctioned religious organizations are the Buddhist Association of China, Chinese Taoist Association, Islamic Association of China, Three-Self Patriotic Movement and Chinese Patriotic Catholic Association. These groups are afforded a degree of protection, but are subject to restrictions and controls under the State Administration for Religious Affairs. Unregistered religious groups—including house churches, Falun Gong, Tibetan Buddhists, underground Catholics, and Uyghur Muslims—face varying degrees of harassment, including imprisonment, torture, and forced religious conversion.[2] Tam and Hasmath argue that the Chinese government views religion as potentially destabilizing.[3]

Contents [hide]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_religion_in_China

[Voltaire2]

42. Yes it is a totalitarian state that falls short on human rights and yes it deals harshly with

religious groups it views as engaged in subversive activities against the state. We are in agreement on that point. What it is not doing is imposing atheism on its people. It is not an "atheocracy", a nonsense word you made up, which is where this started.

[MineralMan]

18. Sounds like non US-born Muslims are treated here, in the USA.

Do you follow the news, other than on religionnews.com?

Here in the good old USA, an affirmation of Christianity is pretty much a requirement for political success, with very, very few exceptions. There is Keith Ellison, of course, and a few Jewish office-holders exist. But, really, if you don't give at least lip service to being a Christian, forget about seeking office.

And, speaking of Keith Ellison, he represents a district with a large Muslim immigrant population, which is always under close surveillance. Young Islamic immigrants are highly suspect here, as they apparently are in China as well.

Carry on, won't you, Guy?

[guillaumeb]

20. It does.

Does the fact that the officially atheistic government in China demonstrates intolerance make you uncomfortable?

Interesting. Perhaps because it conflicts with the image some people have about atheists.

[MineralMan]

21. Well, see, governments and societies are generally intolerant

of anything that isn't the norm. In China, government is intolerant of Muslims. In the USA, government is intolerant of Muslims. It appears that the "religion" of a government has little to do with such intolerance, really. Nations that are intolerant make me uncomfortable.

Christians are forever saying that the USA is a "Christian Country." China is openly a non-religious country. Call it an "atheist" country if you like. Both mistreat Muslim immigrants and, often, citizens.

Tell me what is the difference, Guy. Personally, I don't treat Muslims any differently than anyone else. I'm an atheist. I'm not a nation, though.

[guillaumeb]

23. So intolerance is a human attribute related to tribalism?

If that is part of your point, we agree on that. Intolerance is a human failing. Christianity, in the message of Jesus, attempts to address that intolerance.

Our church has participated in a number of actions with a local mosque to fight Islamophobic prejudice in our area. And our social justice group has some members who are atheists. The commonality is the fight for equality.

[Mariana]

41. In Matthew chapter 10, Jesus said:

"If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, leave that home or town and shake the dust off your feet. Truly I tell you, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town."

And: "Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn‘a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law -- a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.

Is that how Christianity addresses intolerance, by threatening death and destruction to entire towns and by breaking up families?

[guillaumeb]

44. The sword metaphor is a common one,

and there is the literal meaning, which you focused on, and there is, obviously, a metaphorical meaning.

[Mariana]

47. Actually, I didn't mention the sword reference at all.

In that passage, the breaking up of families because of Christianity is of more concern to me, especially since it is one of the few prophecies in the Bible that has actually come true. It still happens today.

[guillaumeb]

48. From your own actual response:

In part, it read:

I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.

So yes, you actually did mention it.

[Mariana]

49. I apologize, I did not mean to include that.

I was much more curious about threatening towns' populations with death and destruction and destroying families. Those appear to be examples of intolerance to me. Do you agree?

[guillaumeb]

50. If it was meant literally, yes.

But as in the metaphoric sword, (generally interpreted as meaning families will be divided), many Christians read much of this as metaphor.

Like the creation story, which can be read as literal or metaphoric. Look up the names Adam and Eve, and apply those meanings to the story and the story appears a bit different from a simple creation myth.

[Act_of_Reparation]

4. You're clearly very familiar with the ongoing Uyghur separatist movement in Xinjiang.

Seeing as you didn't mention it.

[trotsky]

6. There are points to be scored for his "side," AoR.

More points if he neglects to put the event in context, so...

[Act_of_Reparation]

7. Atheists treating Muslims badly because Atheists gonna Atheist is certainly more exciting than...

...a repressive totalitarian regime taking extreme-but-typical authoritarian measures to control a Jihaddi-backed separatist movement that has been boiling on and off for eighty some odd years. So let's not talk about that. And let's not talk about the other Muslim-majority ethnic groups against whom the Chinese government isn't using these tactics.

[trotsky]

8. Atheocracy!

Done! No room for any nuance or understanding here!

[Act_of_Reparation]

9. Antibarbocracy!

Rule by those without beards.

[marylandblue]

12. Wouldn't an antibarbocracy be rule without barbers?

Therefore everyone would be required to have long hair and beards.

[guillaumeb]

17. So now you are concerned about nuance?

Excellent.

[Act_of_Reparation]

22. So, what do you think?

Is this a case of atheists bigoting because atheist bigotry, or do you think it might have something to do with the Islamist-backed Uyghur nationalist separatists in Xinjiang?

I only ask because there is an Islamist-backed Uyghur separatist movement in Xinjiang that has on occasion carried out terrorist attacks there. And it seems odd that an ATHEOCRACY bent on eradicating Islam would only target Uyghurs -- you know, the group with an active separatist movement in Xinjiang -- and not any of the other Muslim-majority ethnicities in China.

[guillaumeb]

24. The Chinese Government attempts to frame the Uighur movement

as a terrorist organization.

As to Chinese atheism, I think that this is another example of human intolerance by a group that in this case is officially atheist. Showing that, no matter the beliefs, intolerance is a human response.

[Act_of_Reparation]

30. Yes, they do.

Because they're chickenshit scared of what will happen if this separatist movement takes root. Which is why Uyghurs are getting the riot act while many other Muslim-majority groups are relatively unmolested.

China is a single-party, authoritarian state. The party's chief interest is now, and always has been, the preservation of their single-party status. Nothing the Chinese government does makes sense except in light of that.

[trotsky]

25. LOL

Always have been. You evidently haven't been paying attention.

[guillaumeb]

26. Well, I do pay attention here.

Perhaps you post other places as well.

[trotsky]

27. Perhaps I do, perhaps I don't.

Unless you are stalking and trying to doxx me, you don't know either, now do you?

[guillaumeb]

28. I am looking for the nuance.

And I may find it if I keep looking.

[trotsky]

29. I'm pretty sure you'd miss it even if it smacked you right in the nose. n/t

[Lordquinton]

10. Oh whoops!

That little detail wasn't mentioned.

Strange the OP has stopped commenting...

[Act_of_Reparation]

11. Maybe he lives under a tyrannical ichthocracy...

...where surface dwellers are forced at the end of a trident to post nonsense on internet forums so their fish overlords can has a lulz.

[Lordquinton]

13. Some people are into that

[guillaumeb]

37. If one were to read the entire article,

it was actually mentioned a few times.

Just an observation.

[Act_of_Reparation]

40. But I can't read, remember?

Besides, this wasn't a critique of the article. It was a critique of what you presented to be the salient points of the article.

[guillaumeb]

43. I presented a taste of the article.

It is up to the careful consumer to fully savor.

[Act_of_Reparation]

45. You sound like a used car salesman.

[guillaumeb]

46. I avoided any reference to reading. eom