Trump and the Religious Right have made the Religious Left unavoidable.

[guillaumeb]

From the article:

At long last, the Religious Left has awakened. And if the Religious Right keeps up its unwavering support for Trump, the progressive faithful may have miles to go before they sleep.
To be fair, the Religious Left was never exactly napping. Aspects of the movement—which constitutes an amorphous group of interfaith activists that goes by many names and takes many forms—have operated since America’s founding, marching and praying in support of abolition, labor reform, and civil rights.

To read more:

https://thinkprogress.org/2017-is-the-year-trump-and-the-religious-right-made-the-religious-left-unavoidable-3e89528104b6/

[bobbieinok]

1. Religious left always present. MSM just defined Christianity as Jerry Falwell, Franklin Graham, etc

Really good trick - never show, write about, or interview Progressive Christians. Then attack them for not speaking up.

Eventually.....MSM found it impossible to ignore Rev Barber and the Moral Monday.

[guillaumeb]

4. On target.

The media creates reality for many people. What is not covered cannot exist.

[NotASurfer]

28. Carter, for one

He's written about how faith and prayer helped him get through difficulties during his administration. And he actually does things (Habitat) that live up to the better aspects of his faith

[trotsky]

2. Will a left-wing theocracy be better than a right-wing one? n/t

[Lordquinton]

3. The right is leaving people behind

So they grab onto the left as the other.

[trotsky]

8. While ignoring the largest single "religious" bloc in America: the unaffiliated.

Zealots on the right and left extremes of religion demand allegiance or at the very least deference, or you are an enemy.

[guillaumeb]

13. Yet another claim.

So many claims made, so little proof offered.

[trotsky]

44. I have posted MANY links in the past.

Surveys, studies, population trends, etc.

Your problem is that you see all that and you somehow translate it in your mind that all the evil atheists are claiming religion is going to disappear and/or die.

The non-religious ARE the largest single "religious" voting bloc. The sooner you learn to accept this, the easier discussions will be for you in this forum.

Here is the link AGAIN:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/07/14/the-non-religious-are-now-the-countrys-largest-religious-voting-bloc/

[guillaumeb]

47. Allow me to translate:

From your link:

1) More American voters than ever say they are not religious,

2) making the religiously unaffiliated the nation's biggest voting bloc by faith for the first time in a presidential election year.

Look at the 2 sentences. In #1, we are told about non-religious Americans. In #2, we are told that they are religiously unaffiliated. So does the author have 2 different definitions of being religious?

That does not mean that they are non-believers, it simply means that they are unaffiliated with any particular denomination.

And yes, the percent of declared atheists is approximately 20%, based on this one survey.

[trotsky]

48. Nope, you are mis-translating.

You are choosing definitions you prefer and trying to find fault with statements that way. It's a consistent tactic you employ when you are losing an argument, which is often.

These people don't belong to a religion. They're non-religious; they're not affiliated with religion. That's the terminology being used.

No one has said they're all atheists or non-believers. That's you making stuff up again.

[guillaumeb]

49. Again, YOU misunderstood. eom

[trotsky]

50. Okey doke, whatever you say. n/t

[Lordquinton]

19. So very true.

One look at any poll shows it. You'd have to be blind, or will fully ignorant to not see that.

[trotsky]

45. It is difficult emotionally for some to accept.

It would require them to acknowledge the position of religious privilege they've enjoyed, and that's very challenging for some.

[Lordquinton]

53. You also have to listen to other points of view

And not come up with creative definitions for every word and phrase. And new ones for every line.

[guillaumeb]

5. Are you claiming that left wing Christians are theocrats?

Interesting, but I will not ask for proof of your claim.

[trotsky]

6. Nope that is your false narrative. I did not claim that.

I asked a question. Can you answer it, or will you try and divert again?

[guillaumeb]

9. So your implication in your own reply, #2, was a mistake on your part?

I understand.

I think.

[trotsky]

43. No, what you IMPLIED was wrong. A mistake on your part.

It's OK, I forgive you.

[safeinOhio]

7. Oxymoron?

[guillaumeb]

10. When I read this:

trotsky (45,162 posts)
2. Will a left-wing theocracy be better than a right-wing one? n/t


"...God is an ever receding pocket of scientific ignorance." ― Neil deGrasse Tyson

and subsequently read a denial by the same poster:

trotsky (45,162 posts)
6. Nope that is your false narrative. I did not claim that.

I asked a question. Can you answer it, or will you try and divert again?

I am at a loss as to what to think. Apparently the poster is claiming 2 opposite things in the same thread.

[Act_of_Reparation]

11. Yeah, it's confusing... if you understand tense.

Will a left-wing theocracy be better than a right-wing one? : Future Tense

Are you claiming that left wing Christians are theocrats? : Present Tense


Trotsky's concern isn't that left wing Christians are currently theocrats, but that the precedent we set today might bite us in the ass a generation or two down the line.

Given that modern right wing Christians share common ancestry with left wing Christian movements of the late 19th and early 20th centuries, this concern is not unfounded.

[guillaumeb]

12. He implies that it will happen.

If he had used a conditional form I might agree with you. But the clear implication is that a left wing theocracy will arise. If he had substituted the word would the point would have been far different.

As to your second point, the commonality is a belief in the message of Jesus. Political outcomes are completely separate.
So the comparison is not valid.

[Act_of_Reparation]

29. I'm sorry, I couldn't hear you.

Your pedantry was turned up too high.

[guillaumeb]

31. Impressive. eom

[Act_of_Reparation]

33. Not especially.

But then we can't all be great communicators.

Also, I suggest you familiarize yourself with the origins of the religious right in the United States. It's pretty clear your understanding is somewhat... lacking.

[guillaumeb]

34. Fee free to enlighten. eom

[Act_of_Reparation]

36. William Jennings Bryan

[marylandblue]

21. Are there any left wing theocracies?

Seems theocracies tend to be conservative.

[Voltaire2]

22. Jonestown aka The Peoples Temple Agricultural Project.

It didn't go well.

[guillaumeb]

24. And where is the proof of a leftist politics?

Since you made the claim.

[Voltaire2]

35. is freaking google broken for you?

Last edited Sun Dec 17, 2017, 06:00 PM - Edit history (1)

here is a clue: 'people's temple'. Now go use your google foo.

Meanwhile, why on earth would you think that somehow the left has a problem with authoritarianism, or is it theism that you think is incompatible with leftist ideologies? Or are you just playing argument clinic?

[guillaumeb]

37. Just pointing out the unsubstantiated ridiculousness of the claim.

Sorry to point it out, but it needed to be done.

[marylandblue]

38. Personally I was thinking more along the lines of a government theocracy like Iran

But using Jonestown as an example of what could be under the wrong conditions is valid. Left wing authoritarian religion is not America's biggest problem right now though.

[Voltaire2]

39. Ok i guess google is not your strength

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peoples_Temple

The Peoples Temple of the Disciples of Christ,[1] commonly shortened to Peoples Temple, was a new religious movement founded in 1955 by Jim Jones in Indianapolis, Indiana. Jones used the Peoples Temple to spread a message that combined elements of Christianity with communist and socialist ideas, as well as an emphasis on racial equality.

The Peoples Temple is best known for the events of November 18, 1978 in Guyana, when 918 people died in a mass murder/suicide at its remote settlement, named "Jonestown", as well as the murders of U.S. Congressman Leo Ryan and members of his visiting delegation in nearby Port Kaituma. The mass suicide and killings at Jonestown resulted in the greatest single loss of American civilian life in a deliberate act prior to the September 11 terrorist attacks.

[Act_of_Reparation]

40. It depends on how your terms are defined.

Are we talking about social liberalism? Economic liberalism? Classical liberalism?

[marylandblue]

41. Yes it does, in my mind, I was thinking of Social Democracy

Which would seem to be incompatible with any kind of authoritarian theocracy. But I suppose someone could come up with Christian Bolshevism or something like that, and if enough people buy into it, you have a left wing authoritarian theocracy. I still think it's less likely a right wing theocracy, because in most (not all) cases, religion seems inherently conservative.

[Act_of_Reparation]

42. Inherently socially conservative, perhaps.

Religion favors traditionalism. Traditionalism is inherently conservative. But religion doesn't usually get into the nuts and bolts of economics, so there is much more leeway there.

One of the most prominent progressive and populist politicians of the late 19th century was Christian fundamentalist William Jennings Bryan. He favored bimetalism, opposed imperialism, and railed against moneyed costal elite taking advantage of poor, rural Americans. He also was a staunch prohibitionist and he prosecuted the Scopes "Monkey" trial. Economically liberal, socially conservative. How would we describe the country Bryan would have built had he been given the opportunity?

[trotsky]

46. I dunno.

The point is, I don't want our nation's laws or policy to be based on anyone's religion - whether that religion be conservative OR liberal.

[nycbos]

51. I am a non observant Jew. I believe in an absolute operation of church and state.

We aren't talking about a theocracy here. I think the point is that there are many progressive christians out there who's progressive values are guided by their faith. As an example Jesus said to my understanding feed the poor and heal the sick.

You can also be a progressive christian, while believing in the separation of church and state and not impose their religion on others.


Lets use John Kerry, Joe Biden and Tim Kaine as examples. They are all devout catholics who personally believe that life begins at conception. However they all had strong pro-choice voting records because they don't believe that they can impose their religion on others.

[trotsky]

52. Please see my comment #46 on this thread. n/t

[Staph]

14. Four women from my church went to the Woman's March in DC,

traveling more than 400 miles to get there. Some of us talked, before leaving, about how our faith required that we go. That God's message of doing unto others as you would have them do unto you means that living that rule, and standing up for the least in our society.

The Sunday before the march, our pastor recognized a nurse who was going to Haiti on a medical mission, as well as the four of us who headed to the march. She (the pastor) asked for prayers for the five of us, because we were doing God's work in the world.

I love my church!

[TomSlick]

15. I try to follow the teachings of a radical rabbi.

Jesus' teachings instruct my liberal politics.

Before the flaming starts, I am not suggesting that only Christians can be proper liberals. All I'm saying is that for me, I find any other political position is inconsistent with my understanding of Jesus' teachings. I wonder if I couldn't be as selfish and self-serving as anyone but for what is me the clear message of the Gospels. Maybe I'd be a good enough person to be concerned with others if not constrained by the Gospels - I like to think I would be - but I'll never know.

[Staph]

17. One does not have to follow that "radical rabbi" to be a liberal.

But if you follow his teaching, you will be a liberal. Too many of the so-called "Christian" so-called "Right" either are not paying attention to the words of Jesus or they just don't care.

[TomSlick]

18. Thanks for that.

I'm a lawyer - not a theologian - but I can't torture the red letters in the Gospels to support a conservative philosophy.

[Mariana]

23. They interpret the words of Jesus differently than you do.

They don't understand how you came to your conclusions, either. They are certain that they are right and you are wrong, just as you are certain that you are right and they are wrong.

[guillaumeb]

25. Our church group participates in many social action events.

And we have atheists as members among the theists. Our politics correspond even if we differ on matters of belief.

Church is a social as well as religious event.

[marylandblue]

16. Thanks for that

I think the voice of the religious left has been missing for quite some time.

[guillaumeb]

26. Or the media prefers to focus on their own narrative. eom

[marylandblue]

30. I don't think it's the media

It's the loud mouth white evangelical churches that built their own empires, created their own news outlets, bought their own politicians, and erased the separation of church and state as much as they could. The media did not do this. Marketing experts did it.

[guillaumeb]

32. I will concede that point.

But I also feel that the media ignores what does not fit their narrative, especially the narrative that the US is a center right country.

[Voltaire2]

20. lolzd

[guillaumeb]

27. Thank you for your contribution to the dialogue. eom