Religion
Related: About this forumReal respect for others beliefs
If I hear the words "Merry Christmas", I do not assume any motivation other than a seasonal greeting.
If I hear "God bless you" after a sneeze, I do not assume any motivation other than courtesy.
If I hear "God damn" in a conversation, or "go to hell", I do not assume that the speaker is asking God to damn me, or that the speaker is praying that I go to hell.
If, as regularly happens, a person comes to my door with a religious pamphlet, I do not assume that they are attacking my own faith or even asking what faith I might have. That has literally never happened. What happens is that they ask if they can talk to me about whatever it is that they believe. When I say no, I am not interested, as I always do, they thank me for my time and wish me a good day.
And that is the entirety of the interaction.
It seems to me that true tolerance lies in not assuming any negative motivation on the part of another unless there is direct evidence of such negative motivation.
Others may disagree. Others may feel that there is literally no place for any personal expression of faith outside of the home, and they are welcome to those undoubtedly sincere feelings.
yallerdawg
(16,104 posts)under the heading "respect for others beliefs."
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)It appears to me as if a small portion of the regular posters in this group are determined to categorize billions of believers and the group is upset when a post deviates from their pattern.
Most of us know that intolerance and prejudice and every other negative attribute are human failings that are not specific to any subset of humans.
Thank you.
Merlot
(9,696 posts)on their part. It's a lack of respect for my time, my privacy, my boundaries.
And to be clear, I don't respect others beliefs. I respect their right to belive them. Big difference. It's like not telling a kid there isn't really a tooth fairy or santa claus and waiting for them to grow out of it. Except they are adults, and only a few grow out of it.
yallerdawg
(16,104 posts)draws them to your door to "share the Good News," not sell you Amway products.
A tract, a Sunday morning show, a knock on the door - these things have demonstrably and completely changed lives for the better!
Comparing Christianity or any religion to the tooth fairy or Santa is not any level of respect I recognize.
Cuthbert Allgood
(4,965 posts)"A tract, a Sunday morning show, a knock on the door - these things have demonstrably and completely changed lives for the better!"
You can't be serious.
yallerdawg
(16,104 posts)have not impacted other's lives, you don't live in a bubble, you're in a hermetically-sealed cocoon!
Mariana
(14,861 posts)When they hand you tracts, or televise their religious shows, or knock on your door, none of them are trying to convince you to join their religion. And even if they are, that's not recruitment, it's something else entirely.
And here I thought Gil was a special case, when it comes to pretending words don't mean what they mean.
Can he be serious? I dunno. Maybe it is time to invoke Poe's Law. What do you think?
Mariana
(14,861 posts)that Christians feel compelled to spread their religion. Recruitment (voluntary or otherwise) has been a common religious practice throughout history. Christians in particular have been instructed to recruit from the very beginning, by Christ himself, if the book is to be believed. Obedience to authority figures isn't generally thought to be an "amazing thing".
yallerdawg
(16,104 posts)and never say one word about their religion.
It is not an "instruction" and a number of faiths are not looking for "converts" or "recruits."
The instruction they have been given is to "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."
Mariana
(14,861 posts)baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you. --Jesus Christ
This isn't an instruction to recruit? What is it, then?
yallerdawg
(16,104 posts)Mariana
(14,861 posts)baptizing them into the faith, and teaching them the religion isn't recruiting them? Please. Of course it is.
Recruitment (noun): the action of finding new people to join an organization or support a cause.
You may consider recruiting people into Christianity to be a good deed, but it is still recruitment.
yallerdawg
(16,104 posts)"Preaching the gospel, making people into disciples, baptizing them into the faith, and teaching them the religion."
All this from "Merry Christmas."
I am amazed once more.
Angry Dragon
(36,693 posts)organized religion is mostly brainwashing
and this comes from a Reverend
Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)"hate the sin, love the sinner?"
Isn't that directly opposed to what this OP is saying?
yallerdawg
(16,104 posts)A conclusion or statement that does not logically follow from the previous argument or statement.
Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)You post a non-sequitor in response to me.
This is a thread about respecting others beliefs, the phrase "hate the sin, love the sinner" is essentially the same thing as saying that you should respect people, but don't have to respect beliefs.
yallerdawg
(16,104 posts)I know you have your agenda, but this isn't it!
Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)Because it sounds like literally the same thing.
yallerdawg
(16,104 posts)Sin - an immoral act considered to be a transgression against divine law.
Respect - a feeling of deep admiration for someone or something elicited by their abilities, qualities, or achievements.
How are these "the same thing?"
Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)It's not sin and respect, it's sin and belief. First of all, declaring that what someone does or is as a "an immoral act considered to be a transgression against divine law." generally used on things like LGBTQIA issues, which is abhorrent to begin with.
So that phrase is a declaration that you are not respecting their "beliefs" or more often "Who they are as a person." in fact, you're actively hating them.
Way worse than smiling and nodding, then just tossing the pamphlet after they are long out of sight.
yallerdawg
(16,104 posts)Your religious intolerance is quite clear when you hold that someone else's "belief" is an act of hate.
"Love the sinner, hate the sin" is not an expression of hate towards any person. It is a difference in belief about things WE DO.
It is not about hate and condemnation.
It is about love and salvation.
Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)The phrase literally has hate in it, and you say it's not about hate.
How can you ever say that with a straight face?
Oh, oh I get it "Your intolerance" "My love and salvation"
I see how it is.
Thanks for the clarification.
sprinkleeninow
(20,263 posts)In love, I must say that this phrase can be troublesome.
It is not found in Holy Scripture.
There are verses that speak of love and that falling short/'sin' is harmful to a person's true being/self, but this cliched phrase is not written.
Again, please forgive me one and all if I have offended by stating such.
Glorfindel
(9,736 posts)about Charles Dickens than the miraculous birth in Bethlehem. Also, we never said (and I still don't) "God bless you" when someone sneezed, just "bless you." The word "god" was not ever to be uttered lightly, even with the best of intentions. And growing up as a Methodist in a county that was, and is, 90% Baptist, I learned very early to respect others' beliefs, or at least pretend to, or I'd get my ass kicked. Thank you for a thoughtful and thought-provoking post.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)I am happy that you liked it.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)Thanks, g.
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)Did I forget to shower today or something?
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)trotsky
(49,533 posts)ExciteBike66
(2,374 posts)It looks like you mean "be polite", and I agree. I say Merry Christmas all the time even though I am 100% not a believer in any gods.
When you use the word "respect", it seems to me you are asking that we take religious beliefs seriously.
Or perhaps it should have been "respect people", instead of "respect beliefs"?
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)I would not ask anyone to agree with my beliefs, or the beliefs of others. But it seems to me that sometimes people aere guilty of assuming motivation in the complete absence of proof.
I ask only that people respect the right of everyone to hold their own beliefs.
ExciteBike66
(2,374 posts)guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)ExciteBike66
(2,374 posts)Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)That's so woke.
Nitram
(22,890 posts)from "A Separate Peace" by John Knowles
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)...from this, by me.
Nitram
(22,890 posts)Believe me, no one will be quoting you, least of all, me.
Voltaire2
(13,177 posts)I thought that was obvious.
Nitram
(22,890 posts)Last edited Fri Nov 17, 2017, 09:58 AM - Edit history (1)
I thought that was obvious.
Mariana
(14,861 posts)guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)I say happy holiday to those who wish me one, Merry Christmas to those who wish me one, etc. I see that a simple politeness rather than agreement on matters of belief.
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)What you see -- or rather what you don't see -- is the chief issue here. You have not experienced, nor do you seem particularly interested in understanding, what the rest of us have experienced. Case in point, you automatically interpret objections to Christmas wishes as a matter of differences in belief, rather than a matter of Christian privilege.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)But in spite of that, you feel able to claim many things about my motives and experiences.
In a country that is majority theist, why would anyone be surprised if a majority of people might wish people a happy holiday at Christmas time?
And why do you accept the posters assumption of motive on the part of the lady?
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)This is the precisely the problem with you. I point out that you aren't seeing this issue within the context of being an atheist in a society where Christianity is a privileged group. Do you take pause and ask what the atheist experience is? No. Because you're not fucking interested.
And you can stowe that crap about the experience of Christians. Most of us weren't brought up atheist. I spent half my life in the Roman Catholic Church, and I'm pretty goddamned familiar with what it is like to be Roman Catholic.
Nitram
(22,890 posts)What privilege does any Christian have that you don't have because you are an atheist? You sound like you have an enormous ex-Roman-Catholic chip on your shoulder. Perhaps the church damaged you for life. Or, on the other hand, maybe you just need to drop some of that baggage and start living your life again. For fuck's sake.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)Nitram
(22,890 posts)I have better things to do than moan about any of the items on your list. The writer of the list obviously feels entitled and longs for the larger community available to religionists.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)No one has said non-believers are persecuted. That's your straw man.
The list, while it contains nothing close to what anyone would consider to be grossly unreasonable, does however indicate the value of religious privilege, much like white privilege.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)Does it interfere with the ability to see both sides?
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)sprinkleeninow
(20,263 posts)Last edited Sun Nov 19, 2017, 10:34 PM - Edit history (1)
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)sprinkleeninow
(20,263 posts)spent half their life in the Roman Catholic Church exclaiming they know quite well what it's about.
I responded to that.
The 'massage' typo was compliments of your friendly neighborhood auto correct. Now I just corrected auto.
Nitram
(22,890 posts)"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
The First Amendment only describes what our government can or cannot do.
It does not force citizens to respect anything.
Nitram
(22,890 posts)The Constitution actually forces no one to do anything. It does, however, point the way to better ways to live in harmony with people who are different from us. Do you advocate going out and shooting everyone who believes in god, or are you willing to tolerate their presence? Perhaps tolerance requires our respect of the right of other people to be different.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)By keeping abortion legal, we are not tolerating their beliefs, and in their eyes, are allowing the "murder" of "babies."
You understand yet why this isn't as easy as "can't you atheists just shut up and quit criticizing religion"?
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)while working to ensure that those beliefs are not codified into law.
Nitram
(22,890 posts)trotsky
(49,533 posts)How intolerant of you!
Or is it that disagreeing with someone ISN'T actually religious intolerance?
Interesting spot you've put yourself into. Go ahead, try to wriggle out.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)trotsky
(49,533 posts)When you tell other people they're wrong, that's fine.
When atheists do it, they're being intolerant of religion.
I think everyone understands fully.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)trotsky
(49,533 posts)Why is that?
Do you think I'm too stupid to explain it to?
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)I have no issue with your intelligence, simply your tactics. And others do as well.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)How dare I! You got me!
If that's how you have to bow out, so be it. I knew you couldn't explain yourself, because this was about attacking Cartoonist and nothing else. You're busted.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)Inadvertent or not, you continue to follow your pattern.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)You refuse.
Everyone can tell what that means.
Nitram
(22,890 posts)views from being passed into law. If we don't, We are just as intolerant as someone who doesn't want to allow gay marriage.
Clearly you have a mac truck sized chip on your shoulder with your "can't you atheists just shut up and quit criticizing religion"? I'm not a believer but I haven't encountered that because I don't criticize religion. I criticize policies that infringe on my own and other people's rights whether they are based on religion or not. Frankly I don't care if their opinions are based on religion. Atheists can be just as stupid and illogical as religious people when it comes to policy. George Will is an atheist.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)So where are these horrible atheists who aren't allowing religious people the right to hold their opinions? Please point them out to me.
What I see is you and your friend guillaumeb arguing against a straw man. Please show how what g-man is so upset about (see this thread) is an example of someone not tolerating someone else's right to believe.
Go ahead, knock this chip off my shoulder. Or tell guillaumeb he's wrong. Your choice.
Nitram
(22,890 posts)I didn't say there are horrible atheists who aren't allowing religious people etc." You are in fact the one arguing against the straw man of what you expect to read rather than what I actually wrote. Please show me where I wrote "horrible atheists aren't allowing religious people the right to hold their opinions."
I tried to say, "where are these horrible religionists who aren't allowing atheists the right to hold their opinions?" I am suggesting that we stop whining about criticism from religionists. I am suggesting we ignore their religious view and focus on policy instead. We achieve that at the ballot box and by persuading people to vote for the policies we like. We also have the option of suing when unconstitutional laws are passed by religionists. When have you been persecuted by religionists? Are you that sensitive to criticism of atheism by a religionist? That's the realm of opinion and debate, not actual physical andd mental harm.
[Knocks chip off shoulder]
trotsky
(49,533 posts)Go read the thread that upset him, and tell him how he's wrong.
Chip still in place.
Cuthbert Allgood
(4,965 posts)to be able to be able to hold public office because he thought it broke the wall of separation. But, yeah, whatever makes you happy. The US Constitution only deals with what the government can do. It most certainly DOES NOT tell me that I have to tolerate a religion.
Nitram
(22,890 posts)those with religious beliefs. I believe that's exactly what the framers wanted to avoid, as that is what many were fleeing when the left Europe. Doesn't it actually require us to respect their right to practice a religion - as well as the right not to believe or practice religion?
trotsky
(49,533 posts)NO ONE HERE has even come CLOSE to suggesting any kind of physical violence against believers.
NO ONE HERE has even come CLOSE to suggesting that people shouldn't be allowed to believe. (Like you could enforce that in any way!)
Please, argue your point on honest terms.
Nitram
(22,890 posts)I'm using an extreme example to demonstrate that you probably do tolerate religion. If you didn't, you'd be expected to take some extreme to eradicate it. I suspect you may not be clear on the meaning of tolerance.
Mariana
(14,861 posts)We're constantly being told in this group that we are "intolerant" of religion and of religious people. Why, there's a recent thread in which the OP was told he was "intolerant" because he related an encounter with a religious person in which he politely took a religious tract from someone, and then threw it in the trash after that person left the building. Clearly, we aren't all using the same definition of the word.
Nitram
(22,890 posts)Yes, the Christian right are a bunch of whiners complaining about persecution. Don't follow their stupid example. First World Problems see to be dominating this conversation.
Mariana
(14,861 posts)So what? Lighten the fuck up. If you don't want to discuss tolerance and intolerance and first world problems, why are you posting about those things on this particular thread in the first place?
Nitram
(22,890 posts)on this thread have a deep misunderstanding of both concepts. And I do have a low tolerance for whining about persecution from both Christians and atheists. I'd like to see everybody show a bit more respect and tolerance for other people's rights. Does that disturb you?
trotsky
(49,533 posts)The fallacy of relative privation.
Common tool used by the right wing to dismiss the concerns of minorities in the USA. It shouldn't be used here on DU.
Nitram
(22,890 posts)On DU you shouldn't imply that I'm a right winger just because I'm indifferent to the privations you allege are imposed on you as an atheist. I have never been the victim of such a privation.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)I don't think you're a right winger, I'm merely noting that they make great use of that fallacy to dismiss LGBT and racial minority concerns. Like "oh, a gay couple can't get a cake, how horrible, at least they don't live somewhere where they'd be executed. They should shut up."
That's the attitude you have taken in these threads.
Nitram
(22,890 posts)Perhaps you can tell me the term for the fallacy you are employing in assuming I am talking about ignoring a denial of my rights as opposed to ignoring the mere expression of another person's opinion. I find your irrelevant and inaccurate generalizations about me both rude and illogical. Calm down, take a deep breath, and try to understand my point. You still don't get it.
When a gay couple can't buy a cake because of their sexual orientation, that is a denial of their rights. When a religulous person accuses you of being intolerant, that is an expression of their opinion. Get it? Two very different situations. If you can document that you have been denied your rights as a citizen because you are an atheist, then I believe you have been sorely mistreated and should take steps to redress that wrong. If you are pissed of because your feeling were hurt by someone's opinion, then I'd say, "deal with it."
trotsky
(49,533 posts)I'm sad you still don't understand that you are using it.
I tire of your personal insults that you are flinging at everyone. Please have the last word, I'm done with you.
Nitram
(22,890 posts)You don't even realize how insulting your own debating style actually is.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)I never insinuated you are stupid by making reference to an object being lodged in your brain. You did that to me in post #77.
I have not told anyone to "grow up" and "stop whining." You did that to Mariana in post #49. You also called Voltaire2 a "whiner" in #48.
I have not told anyone to "drop (their) baggage" like you did to Act_of_Reparation in post #60.
So yeah, I'll happily put my "debating style" up next to yours ANY DAY. I don't dish out what you are doing. I point it out, and walk away.
Nitram
(22,890 posts)You accused me of arguing that " horrible atheists...aren't allowing religious people the right to hold their opinions" in Post #62. You cussed at me in Post #22 "What the actual fuck is with your immediate turn to violence?" Accused me of expressing anti-gay opinions I never had in Post #74: "Like 'oh, a gay couple can't get a cake, how horrible, at least they don't live somewhere where they'd be executed. They should shut up.' That's the attitude you have taken in these threads." You implied that I disagreed with you because I am guillaumeb's friend in Post # 70 "Tell your friend guillaumeb." Truth is, I don't base my opinions on my friendships. Do you?
By the way, the ice pick in the frontal lobe bit was obviously a joke, Trotsky. That's how your namesake was murdered in Mexico city, was it not? I admit my sense of humor can be a bit dark on occasion. But I honestly thought you'd be amused instead of walking away in a huff.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)I didn't compare you to a right-winger, I compared a TACTIC you were using, namely the fallacy of false privation. Etc.
But there is no context that makes your name-calling and insinuations of stupidity look any better.
And while I know how Leon Trotsky was assassinated, my username has nothing do to with him. I acknowledge you had no way of knowing this. But I don't give a shit about that, the insult was to my intellect. And for that reason, yeah, I'm not amused. So if you need to avoid addressing that insult and just claim I'm "walking away in a huff," fine. I don't give a shit.
What you are most guilty of, it appears, is jumping into THIS thread without being aware of the context - namely, the other thread where guillaumeb was the person who got all upset about "religious intolerance". He's the one you should have jumped on. Everyone else has been mocking his claims of religious intolerance or pointing out the religious privilege he is enjoying in order to make the claims of intolerance, and you've attacked them instead of him for his initial "whine."
Nitram
(22,890 posts)Isn't that my right? I was not intent on "jumping on" anyone. Isn't that what you were doing to guillaumeb ? I just expressed my opinion. I guess I'm a bit too outspoken for a thread where atheists are intent on comforting each other in their hour of great need. And jumping all over someone who suggests tolerance rather than outrage is the best way to deal with religious people's opinions. Not complaining about their allegedly enormous advantages in society.
I apologize for offending you with my lame joke about Trosky's demise. I was hoping you'd get the point. Get it? The "Point?" Oh, never mind.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)As I pointed out, it was guillaumeb who brought the outrage. After Cartoonist quietly TOLERATED a religious person proselytizing in his face. You're not "too outspoken," you're just lashing out at the wrong people, and insulting them instead of honestly critiquing their opinions.
Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)but that whole "Just a joke" thing? You know who else uses that constantly?
You're not winning any hearts and minds here.
Nitram
(22,890 posts)If you can't see that was a joke, you have a right wing "sense of humor."
Fuck your hearts and minds!
(Not a joke)
trotsky
(49,533 posts)guillaumeb says that going on the Internet after an encounter with a believer who shoved a tract at you, to relate that you kindly and politely allowed them to go about their business but LATER and OUT OF THEIR VIEW threw the tract away, is religious intolerance.
Do you agree with him that the incident WAS religious intolerance, or do you agree with me that it WAS NOT?
Nitram
(22,890 posts)Personally I don't accept the offer to take a religious tract unless I am interested in reading it. That's not religious intolerance either.
Maybe we should carry a pocket version of Das Kapital or something by Dawkins to hand out in exchange for kooky religious tracts?
Tell your friend guillaumeb. The only chip around here is actually on HIS shoulder. Go knock that one off.
Nitram
(22,890 posts)And, for the record, I don't know who guillaumeb is. But I thought he had a point in that sometimes it is better to just ignore shit we don't like if it doesn't actually harm us. I lived overseas most of my life, in a number of different countries, and that comes to me very easily. I would suggest if you feel wronged and harmed by such insignificant daily incidents, then you should look for a gated community of like-minded people and never venture forth into the outside world.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)That wasn't guillaumeb's point.
That was Cartoonist's point. He politely let the woman do her thing, and then disposed of her religious tract. Where the religious intolerance part came from, according to guillaumeb, was coming to the Internet to anonymously relate the story and admit that the material was thrown in the trash.
Get a grip, indeed. You've been chastising the wrong people this whole time. How embarrassing.
Nitram
(22,890 posts)having your feelings hurt and having your rights denied.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)Nitram
(22,890 posts)There is a real difference between being denied one's rights as a citizen and feeling bad because someone doesn't like your point of view. The fallacy of relative privation, for example, does not maintain that there is no real difference between being chilly because you forgot to bring a sweater, and dying of the cold because someone tied you up and locked you in a freezer.
Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)of complete no faith*, dishonest arguing around here?
*Faith here is used not in the religious sense.
Nitram
(22,890 posts)expressing my own point of view. All along. I am amazed that you've had such difficulty figuring that out.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)However...............
Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)Aside from me, I mean...
And in my "state" actions, I never discriminate, in fact I got out of my way to make things fair where they haven't been.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)Roy Moore obviously has a different idea.
Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)Why did you bring it up?
Oh...
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)With some limited exceptions.
Nay
(12,051 posts)for most religious beliefs themselves, but I respect the right of the person to believe things I consider nonsense. IOW, I respect the individual's right to believe [whatever], but rarely respect the belief itself. I am polite to those who come to my door with religious tracts, but am happy to inform them that I am a long-time atheist and am not looking for a religious home. I don't do that in a nasty way -- I do it with a smile and a "have a good day!" I think it's important for religious people to learn that non-religious people can be just as happy and pleasant with their non-belief as they are with their belief.
On the other hand, if religious people expect me to "respect" their beliefs by codifying some of them into secular laws, I will not go along with that. (abortion ban, etc.)
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)and here you are praising it? Again great inconsistency from you. This whole thing is much ado about nothing.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)And so did others.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)People look to spread their religion because they think it's superior.
Tell me what other reasons they might have to spread their religion. I doubt you can.
Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)Provide one that takes the entire situation into account.
BTW,I know we've had this discussion here before, but intent and outcome don't have to be the same. The "I didn't mean to offend X" is often used in many circumstances, like "hey, don't be offended, it was just a joke" is a common one used by the right wing to get away with all kinds of horrible stuff. Look it up sometime, or you mingh find yourself accidentally defending a certain group again...
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)Cartoonist decided what the motivation was. An alternative is that she feels that her beliefs call on her to spread the word. But admitting that as an alternative does not permit a reading of insult and intolerance on her part.
marylandblue
(12,344 posts)He is saying that spreading the word could unintentionally cause insult. Stop making a connection that isn't there.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)Should we all sit quietly in our rooms?
I think this post is a perfect example of searching for something to be insulted about.
marylandblue
(12,344 posts)Cartoonist did not say he was insulted to the woman. He did not insult her back. He just quietly took it and threw it away and anonymously complained about it here, in a group where we discuss religious matters.
Should he not have told us about it then? Should he keep his feelings to himself because the woman meant no harm?
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)should stop presuming what the motive was and actually ask the person. But that would require actual dialogue, and for some, insult and innuendo replace actual dialogue.
marylandblue
(12,344 posts)Most of us do it all the time, automatically and usually unconsciously. It's a normal subtext of communication. Not everyone does it, but the people who don't often have trouble with social communication. Some of those people may even have diagnosable disorders. So get off your high horse. You might as well attack people for breathing.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)is also delusional thinking, is it not?
marylandblue
(12,344 posts)Like I said, it's part of social communication. It likely had survival value in our tribal days. People who intuitively understood the motivations of others could gain social status, or avoid/win in situations of conflict and anticipate how other are likely to react to your own actions. These intuitions are partly inherent, for example, if someone raises their fist to you, you understand that they are angry and likely to hit you, you don't need to ask what their motivation is.
Or they can be social, for example if someone hands you evangelical literature, you understand they are attempting to proselytize you, not handing you a random piece of paper found on the street. You know that the person believes you are need in salvation, and is assuming you need to read it. Nothing needs to be said. The paper IS the communication.
This is how social communication works. You are at a significant social disadvantage if your mind does not work this way. You may not even realize how much of a disadvantage it is, because you will be missing a large part of the generally assumed social context occurring around you. Psychologists even have a name for this - Theory of Mind. We intuitively construct theories about what goes on in other people's minds. The theories are based on genetics and learned social constructs. Like I said, not everyone does it, but the people who don't often find themselves at a social disadvantage. People who are good at constructing accurate theories usually have high emotional intelligence.
So the problem for Cartoonist, is not that he may have assumed a motivation, but that there is a cultural clash between what he believes to be an acceptable interaction and what the woman believed to be acceptable. This cultural clash is actually part of the larger cultural wars going on in our society right now, this one being between a growing atheist group and an older evangelical Christian group.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)the interaction in such a negative light.
marylandblue
(12,344 posts)Which is why this discussion resulted in cries of "Christian privilege." In our society, you are not expected to take offense if you are handed an evangelical Christian tract. The assumption is that this is normal behavior. You don't need to ask if the other person would like to read it. This is despite the fact that there are people of many faiths plus atheists and secularists in our country.
It's also something that Cartoonist would probably like to change, where instead of just handing you the tract, the proselytizer is expected to say first, "Would you like to read about Jesus?" and give you the opportunity to say yes or no.
Cartoonist
(7,323 posts)And you have yet to come up with any alternative motivation than that which I have described.
As for a dialogue, the incident as reported showed that the lady had no interest in a dialogue. She handed out her paper without asking if I would be interested. She then gave me some biographical information I wasn't interested in either, then quickly exited. This was neither the time or place for such a dialogue.
Look, the onus here is all on the lady. No great crime, but she was in the wrong all the way. Quit trying to paint her as the victim, and atheists as misunderstanding meanies.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)The motives of some are so easy to read because they are displayed for all to see.
It even happens at DU, where the framing and explanations that accompany some posts admit of only one possible motivation.
But in your response, you mention that it is no great crime. Why even characterize it as any type of crime? Unless your business has a sign posted prohibiting people from leaving pamphlets, her actions were, at worst, a bother to you personally.
And I said nothing about atheists in general, my remarks were addressed to those few non-theists who seemed to view her actions negatively, or as proceeding from a negative mindset.
marylandblue
(12,344 posts)Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)I guess it all comes down to the fact that she's christian, so it's ok for her to evangelize. Were the shoe on the other foot we'd be getting several new posts a day about "Evangelical Atheists" and how horrible they are like we did in the good old days.
I get it, you don't understand how someone could feel insulted by something, and you put more on the person's intent, than what effects the act ultimately had. That's also known as blaming the victim.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)As it totally undercuts your point in the rest of the response.
sprinkleeninow
(20,263 posts)atheism or agnosticism are not as unsettling or unpleasant as some who profess to be christian.
Yut-oh. Wott did I just say.🤗
Cartoonist
(7,323 posts)It seems to me that true tolerance lies in not assuming any negative motivation on the part of another unless there is direct evidence of such negative motivation.
So you're okay with someone groping another if their motivation is positive? That's how it feels like being an atheist and getting handed a shit sandwich and told to like it or be called intolerant and condescending.
Nitram
(22,890 posts)I am not a believer, and I have not been handed any religious shit sandwiches so far. I probably have another 20 years left, so it could still happen I suppose.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)But unless you have some special knowledge or direct knowledge about an individual actor, it is better to assume that no offense is intended. Agreed?
Voltaire2
(13,177 posts)Which is quite typical. Perhaps you might try listening to the experiences of the non religious instead of dismissing them as you just did in this op.
Nitram
(22,890 posts)You sound a bit like the more religious people I've known. As a non-believer I have not found myself to be in a particularly unprivileged position.
Voltaire2
(13,177 posts)Did you grow up as a non believer? Were you never made to feel uncomfortable about your status? Never reluctant to reply honestly when asked what religion you were? The question is generally what church not what religion unless you appear non-Christian.
We are one of the most religious developed countries in the world. We have openly theocratic politicians in positions of power at the local state and national level. Not being Christian makes one an outsider, not being religious puts one even further out.
Merry fucking Christmas indeed.
Nitram
(22,890 posts)Last edited Fri Nov 17, 2017, 10:10 AM - Edit history (1)
age of ten). No one ever made to feel uncomfortable, but I'm not a confrontational sort of person and don't like offending people just for the fun of it. I've never been asked what church I belong to. I wonder why you were? I find a lot of my fellow agnostics and atheists to be a bunch of whiners, much like Christians who complain of persecution. Merry fucking humanism to you too.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)Are you fine with dismissing others and assuming what their motivation must be?
Voltaire2
(13,177 posts)into in a different thread by starting up a new thread. You are attempting to re-frame your argument, but you are still dismissing as "intolerant" Cartoonist's short essay on his experience of life as a non-believer.
Yes you are just a saint, being so kind to all your fellow christians wishing you merry fucking christmas. It must be such a struggle to refrain from replying "merry christmas" to "happy HOLY DAYS". Bless you.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)I shall look for this exact same response in the very similarly titled thread that a non-theist recently posted. Coincidentally, it was posted after mine appeared.
What I dismissed as intolerance was the attitude of the poster in assuming a motivation on the part of the lady.
And as I said, I respond in the same way in which I am greeted. I also wish Muslim acquaintances an Eid Mubarak when it is appropriate. If you wished me a merry festivus I would wish you one back.
EvilAL
(1,437 posts)That doesn't mean disrespect is the default, but I am under no obligation to respect anyone for any reason, especially if they throw religious stuff in my face for no reason. When I have to go to church for some function or other, wedding/funeral, I don't start yammering on about how full of shit the bible is. That would be disrespectful.
Also, the OP of the thread that I assume sparked this post of your was at WORK when the person decided they could just give them religious material. The customer knew the person wouldn't be able to object and would smile and say thank you.
How's that for respect.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)And absent facts and proof of motivation, it shows more about the person making the assumption.
Voltaire2
(13,177 posts)guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)marylandblue
(12,344 posts)And it's not an easy thing to explain either. But most people do it all the time, and research indicates that it is an important part of social communication. A few people don't do it at all, or don't do it well, and these people usually have trouble with social communication.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)and can guess at the motivation behind it.
marylandblue
(12,344 posts)Cartoonist
(7,323 posts)The woman's motivation was clear. She believes she possesses the truth, and without even asking me what I believe, she assumes I need salvation.
Finding me in a captive situation, she takes advantage of the moment to hand me something I find objectionable. This wasn't a case of Merry Christmas vs Happy Holidays, it was a blatant disrespect of my privacy and an imposition on my job. While not comparable to being burned at the stake, it is still an offense.
I guess this is something you will never understand as you are swaddled in the cloth of religious privilege.
Mariana
(14,861 posts)Words have real definitions, Gil.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)And these words from the post:
I threw the tract in the trash after crumpling it into a little ball. I'm sure the little old missionary had plenty more with which to insult others.
The words little old could be taken as age bias, and why would Cartoonist assume that her intent was to insult others? Or why would he assume that others would also be insulted?
EvilAL
(1,437 posts)Assuming facts and motivation not in evidence.
Do you think it is disrespectful to do something like that to somebody when they are at work when they can't say anything back to you?
I do. Most people would.
God is the ultimate authority of "assuming facts and motivation not in evidence."
marylandblue
(12,344 posts)Attribution of motivation is irrelevant to respect. I can treat you with respect while privately questioning your motivation. You will never know the difference, nor should you care unless I tell you. Even if I do want to discuss your motivations, there are respectful and nonrespectful ways of doing it.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)But we see far too much mockery, and condescension, and utter lack of respect in this group. Interestingly enough, it is predominantly one side at DU that engages in it.
Response to guillaumeb (Reply #100)
marylandblue This message was self-deleted by its author.
marylandblue
(12,344 posts)But the person's behavior in the social context of the particular interaction.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)And how does that relate to actual respect?
marylandblue
(12,344 posts)guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)And does that act imply intolerance for difference on the part of the initial actor?
Cartoonist
(7,323 posts)If you are standing on a street corner handing them out, I don't object. Sometimes the presenters can be a bit obnoxious. Ultimately, the answer is yes. It's that old refrain, do unto others. Would these same people appreciate it if they were met by pamphleteers of a different ideology?
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)I cannot speak for the woman, but I know that some people feel that they must spread their beliefs. Perhaps you should get some pamphlets from the Ethical Humanist Society, or a similar organization, and hand them out in response.
Cartoonist
(7,323 posts)I would never go around pushing my beliefs. If someone wants to discuss issues, I am open to it, but not while I'm at work.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)And I sympathize with your situation. I was a union representative in a Federal agency, the USPS, and I occasionally had to inform people that they could not leave religious and/or political literature in the office.
marylandblue
(12,344 posts)Because the receiver is working and is not in a position to refuse. The receiver politely accepted it despite his own anger about being trapped in that situation.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)And yes, the poster responded neutrally.
marylandblue
(12,344 posts)He said evangelicals don't realize they are being disrespectful when they proselytize.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)Implying bad intent.
marylandblue
(12,344 posts)and specifically denied that evangelicals are aware of the insults they are making. There was no implication of an intent to insult.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)Implying intent on the part of the lady.
marylandblue
(12,344 posts)Last edited Mon Nov 20, 2017, 05:26 PM - Edit history (1)
If someone infers any intent you didn't explicitly state for any of your posts, you get rather indignant yourself, so don't do it others. Again not following the Golden Rule, one of the few verses in the Bible you say you take literally.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)Keeping in the framework of the actual words Cartoonist used.
marylandblue
(12,344 posts)He felt insulted that this woman thought it was okay for her to give her tract to him while he was working. The problem is not intent. The problem is her lack of awareness.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)If accepting the pamphlet caused a work problem for Cartoonist that would be one thing. But there was no such indication.
marylandblue
(12,344 posts)Even the potential for a problem should be avoided. Plus, unlike if you are walking on the street, he was in no position to refuse.
Angry Dragon
(36,693 posts)sprinkleeninow
(20,263 posts)Last edited Sun Nov 19, 2017, 02:48 AM - Edit history (1)
Hi Guillaume upthread.
I like him and hope he doesn't get cross with me admitting this.
A few decades ago, in CT, we had a home on an acre plus. Husband was on riding mower. Two witnessing people who rang door buzzard then proceeded around side of house were met by him, still riding, coming towards them, waving them off, don't come back here again.
I've been semi-polite to these people, but it's wasting time to engage them. They're programmed. They gave me a pamplet once and I 'filed' it.
Angry Dragon
(36,693 posts)I may learn something I may have missed
but I refuse to accept things that they spew as fact that they can not prove
sprinkleeninow
(20,263 posts)Angry Dragon
(36,693 posts)sprinkleeninow
(20,263 posts)They come around Saturdays mostly. They have a smiley happy friendly demeanor before starting in on their spiel and handing you literature,
usually The Watchtower.
We've told them more than once to not come back to our residence because we have no interest and never will. Then they show up. Again. As it is said, what part of that do they not understand?!😣
Mariana
(14,861 posts)but if they believe Jehovah wants them to knock on your door again, that's what they're gonna do.
You could call the police and have them done for trespassing, if particular individuals you've already warned off the property come back onto it. Even after that, they might return again, if their faith is strong enough.
marylandblue
(12,344 posts)Have they decided I am beyond saving? Or did some of my nastier neighbors run them out of the neighborhood? Both could be true.
sprinkleeninow
(20,263 posts)drives and that did the trick.
Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)Or is this another "just my opinion" that you can't stand behind?
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)A careful reader will also note the frequent use of the first person (I) in the post. Edited to add: (I is actually used 11 times)
So when you ask if I am defining this "for everyone", are you truly confused or does this mean this I will again be accused of attempting to define for everyone what is clearly my personal opinion?
Given that this is the first such question, one can assume that the other readers had no such confusion. So it seems that my wording presents no such issues for most readers.
Agreed?
Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)"No"
Or did you say no? I can't tell...
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)But my examples remain.
Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)That you're not actually standing behind.
Thanks for the "clarification"
marylandblue
(12,344 posts)You also can't assume motivation from inaction.
Irish_Dem
(47,435 posts)Unless you are showing me your body parts uninvited that is....
sprinkleeninow
(20,263 posts)I don't sense there is 'ill' intent whenever a 'religious' belief is being attempted to be shared with another.
However, the bad vibes conflict arises when the party being 'witnessed' to is strong in their 'belief'. It irks me personally to have others with minimal consideration really pushing literature, etc. your way even AFTER they are made aware that you have zero interest.
A former cross the breezeway neighbor and her entourage knew explicitly of my Faith and still stuck their gathering invites, literature and such in my door. I could've alerted the mgt. but we were soon to relocate and I let it go. 'Riding lawnmower husband' was more intolerant vocally. I did forego telling him of some stuff in door so I didn't have to hear HIM!
Irish_Dem
(47,435 posts)Merry Christmas."
But I also agree, it is rude and insensitive for them to keep pushing their beliefs on others who are not interested or offended. Continuously passing literature is obnoxious.
I was raised Catholic but am non-practicing as an adult. I find if I tell these proselytizing protestant religious types that I am Catholic, they scurry away quickly never to return. Something about that is off-putting for them. You might try that if you are desperate.
I have my own spiritual belief system, and will talk about it if asked or in a religious discussion.
But other than that, would never push it on any one else. It is private.
Nitram
(22,890 posts)If they are Christians, they are probably aware that the Catholic Church was there first. I wonder if some evangelicals buy into conspiracy theories about the Church being all-powerful. Like the way some people buy into conspiracy theories about Jewish domination of the entire world through banks and the media.
Irish_Dem
(47,435 posts)Jehova Witness people who come to my door, when I tell them I am Catholic, they look at me, say nothing and hightail it off my porch. So now I use that line all the time when approached by any of these evangelical types.
I have no idea what the deal is, if they are afraid of Catholics, if we are the Devil's spawn or whatever.
Or if they are afraid I might try to convert them. Not sure.
Yes try it and see if it works for you, worth a try.
Mariana
(14,861 posts)is the Beast of the Revelation, or the Whore of Babylon, or just generally Satanic. It's understandable that Catholics are scary to people who believe stuff like that.
marylandblue
(12,344 posts)What happens if you say you are a Satanist?
Irish_Dem
(47,435 posts)Irish_Dem
(47,435 posts)I guess they are afraid I can put a whammy on 'em.
sprinkleeninow
(20,263 posts)have a colossal bird when one mentions Roman Catholicism. When an Orthodox Christian answers questions regarding their faith, we get the same reaction as would a Roman Catholic.
A coworker left my mom's funeral service early. He said he had an appointment, but also later remarked that it was like 'Catholic'. Nice going, huh. He's an industrial strength rr/rw.
Irish_Dem
(47,435 posts)The weddings are a bit unusual, and when she got married some of her co-workers didn't think the wedding
was standard enough to make it legal.
sprinkleeninow
(20,263 posts)Irish_Dem
(47,435 posts)And the bride and groom kept walking in a square formation.
For the Christian purists it was too much.
I thought it was lovely.
sprinkleeninow
(20,263 posts)I married a Covenant Congregationalist who was not made to convert to our Faith in order for us to be married.
His family and attendees on his side of the church aisle were mesmerized throughout the entire ceremony.
My maternal grandmother wove our 'wedding crowns' of periwinkle vine like they did in her 'old country'.
I met my husband when he was a lifeguard at a beach club. A female guard on his team who sang in plays and performances soloed and sang responses with our choir. Husband's family minister donned a cassock and did a superb job chanting parts of the ceremony with our priest!
sprinkleeninow
(20,263 posts)Last edited Sun Nov 19, 2017, 06:06 PM - Edit history (1)
The mention of these make 'some' either run away or start an unwelcomed discourse on how in error we are according to what their bible tells them.
They get this from their pulpits, TV preaching, written material.
'Priests' are a no-no. "Call no one Father", they quote.
As are: canonized/beatified Saints, iconography/sacred figures/statues, 'The Bearer of Christ-God In the Flesh'/'The Ever Blessed Virgin Mary'-"The Mother of God"--'Our Blessed Mother'-'Our Lady'-'The Ark of Our Salvation'. Not understanding that we do not 'worship' Her. We VENERATE Her because She said 'yes' and brought forth Christ. Additionally, much more that is anathema to them as heretical.
What about Beloved Saint Patrick?
Or Beloved Saint Nicholas?
Forgot to include that wonderful fragrant INCENSE that carries prayer to the heavens. They no like.
Irish_Dem
(47,435 posts)The Blessed Mother, my favorite prayer is "Hail Mary."
Beloved St Paddy, and of course my all time favorite St. Francis.
And his Peace Prayer which is the most wonderful prayer of all times.
Incense, candles, music. All wonderful.
What's not to like.
sprinkleeninow
(20,263 posts)I still include the 'Memorare' in my prayers. Still have my St. Joseph Missal.
Orthodox too have Saints that intercede for various intentions. A dear friend raised Roman Rite said St. Anthony of Padua retrieves lost and misplaced items. And he has and does each time I ask. God is glorified in His Saints!
Irish_Dem
(47,435 posts)Yes the saints will help us.
sprinkleeninow
(20,263 posts)Irish_Dem
(47,435 posts)So nice to have such discussion.
sprinkleeninow
(20,263 posts)tolerable. But strong proselytizing, yes, could become intolerable. Then one shows intolerance.
People going around in parking lots asking you "Are you saved?" There's a church/christian temple on every corner. I'm sure if one gets drawn to seek out what it offers, they'd be hard pressed to say they didn't know information was available all over the place.
Irish_Dem
(47,435 posts)I thought Christ died on the cross to "save us." Whatever that means.
But in that sense, we are all automatically saved from birth I thought, from original sin so the story goes.
sprinkleeninow
(20,263 posts)would provide the ultimate 'saving' sacrifice. We 'hear' the love call and respond to it through the Spirit.
Yes, He came, stripping Himself of Glory, to redeem humankind from this world that is dying and will eventually go pffft.
We were 'saved', we are being 'saved', we 'will be saved' is what Orthodoxy encourages as the blessed hope.
The journey is "Theosis'.
Becoming 'like' God.
Not 'becoming' God.
Irish_Dem
(47,435 posts)sprinkleeninow
(20,263 posts)than I could contain in a lifetime.
We all do the best we can.
I'll keep you in my heart of hearts.
Whatever path you're on. 💖
Irish_Dem
(47,435 posts)guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)Thank you.
rock
(13,218 posts)And I have no idea how old you are.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)Being 66. As to wisdom, I am still hoping for Santa Claus to bring me some.
Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)the next time "Evangelical atheists" are brought up.
See, the reactions you are getting haven't arisen in a vacuum. For years the post you made here has been the SOP, but when an atheist does the same thing it goes to defcom 5. This has been brought up before, but I figured that since there were some new faces in the group it would be good to bring it up again.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)Are you stating that there is a double standard here, because if you are so stating, I agree. But the intolerance that I see at DU is rather one sided.
Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)You can take a stroll down memory lane with this thread
[link:https://www.democraticunderground.com/1218222565|] the intolerance towards atheist beliefs was on display in full form. (Note, I have screen shotted your replies there in case you attempt to delete them)
But I really don't have to go any further back than a couple of days, citing this thread and the one that inspired you to post this thread.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)If you consider this to be intolerance, we differ on the definition. But please feel free to cite others and we can discuss them.
And the article in question was written by an atheist.