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guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
Thu Nov 16, 2017, 02:05 PM Nov 2017

Real respect for others beliefs

If I hear the words "Merry Christmas", I do not assume any motivation other than a seasonal greeting.

If I hear "God bless you" after a sneeze, I do not assume any motivation other than courtesy.

If I hear "God damn" in a conversation, or "go to hell", I do not assume that the speaker is asking God to damn me, or that the speaker is praying that I go to hell.

If, as regularly happens, a person comes to my door with a religious pamphlet, I do not assume that they are attacking my own faith or even asking what faith I might have. That has literally never happened. What happens is that they ask if they can talk to me about whatever it is that they believe. When I say no, I am not interested, as I always do, they thank me for my time and wish me a good day.

And that is the entirety of the interaction.

It seems to me that true tolerance lies in not assuming any negative motivation on the part of another unless there is direct evidence of such negative motivation.

Others may disagree. Others may feel that there is literally no place for any personal expression of faith outside of the home, and they are welcome to those undoubtedly sincere feelings.

226 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Real respect for others beliefs (Original Post) guillaumeb Nov 2017 OP
THIS is what I would expect to see... yallerdawg Nov 2017 #1
My feeling as well. guillaumeb Nov 2017 #51
Coming to my private home to sell me their religious belierfs is not respect Merlot Nov 2017 #86
The amazing thing is their faith... yallerdawg Nov 2017 #91
You're shitting me, right? Cuthbert Allgood Nov 2017 #93
If you don't think that people of faith... yallerdawg Nov 2017 #94
Don't forget, they're absolutely not trying to recruit you. Mariana Nov 2017 #108
I don't know why you think it's an "amazing thing" Mariana Nov 2017 #99
I know many good Christians who do good things for people... yallerdawg Nov 2017 #101
Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations Mariana Nov 2017 #102
You're conflating doing good with some notion of "recruitment." yallerdawg Nov 2017 #103
Preaching the gospel, making people into disciples, Mariana Nov 2017 #104
It's as if I didn't post a comment directly refuting your claim. yallerdawg Nov 2017 #106
A true religion comes from within, anything else is a myth Angry Dragon Nov 2017 #140
Haven't you said Lordquinton Nov 2017 #116
Non sequitur. yallerdawg Nov 2017 #121
How ironic Lordquinton Nov 2017 #122
Not at all the same thing! yallerdawg Nov 2017 #123
Explain how it's not the same thing Lordquinton Nov 2017 #124
How do you confuse "sin" and "respect?" yallerdawg Nov 2017 #126
You seem really confused on the issue Lordquinton Nov 2017 #127
I'm not at all confused, and declaring I am doesn't make it so. yallerdawg Nov 2017 #129
wat Lordquinton Nov 2017 #132
It's 'wott'. Heheh. sprinkleeninow Nov 2017 #136
I totally agree with you, guillaumeb. Honestly, when I say "Merry Christmas," I'm thinking more Glorfindel Nov 2017 #2
Thank you. guillaumeb Nov 2017 #23
TIL "real respect" means preserving religious privilege. trotsky Nov 2017 #3
How is it *you* didn't get some snide comment about sarcasm? Act_of_Reparation Nov 2017 #10
Thank you for your contribution. eom guillaumeb Nov 2017 #24
Thank you for your acknowledgment! n/t trotsky Nov 2017 #61
I don't think "respect" is the correct word here. ExciteBike66 Nov 2017 #4
It is both in my view. guillaumeb Nov 2017 #31
So we are talking about respecting people, not necessarily respecting the beliefs themselves? nt ExciteBike66 Nov 2017 #57
Of course. eom guillaumeb Nov 2017 #95
Ok, so maybe we shouldn't title our post "Real respect for others beliefs" then eom ExciteBike66 Nov 2017 #110
You don't get upset when people like you say things you might say? Act_of_Reparation Nov 2017 #5
Sarcasm. The weapon of the weak. Nitram Nov 2017 #7
"Quotes. The weapon of the pretentious, the unoriginal, and vapid." Act_of_Reparation Nov 2017 #9
If you consider John Knowles pretentious, unoriginal and vapid, the you are right. Nitram Nov 2017 #15
The thing is that it isn't the person being quoted who is pretentious, unoriginal and vapid. Voltaire2 Nov 2017 #39
Then you completely failed to get the point. Nitram Nov 2017 #50
It was obvious. nt. Mariana Nov 2017 #52
Thank you for your insight. eom guillaumeb Nov 2017 #25
Personally, I always reply in the way as the speaker. guillaumeb Nov 2017 #32
"I see" Act_of_Reparation Nov 2017 #42
And not having lived my life, you have no idea of my experiences either. guillaumeb Nov 2017 #45
Oh, for fuck's sake. Act_of_Reparation Nov 2017 #58
Oh, reparation, you sound so very angry, unhappy, and persecuted. Nitram Nov 2017 #60
30+ Examples of Christian Privilege trotsky Nov 2017 #65
I'm sorry, just because we're in a minority doesn't mean we're being persecuted. Nitram Nov 2017 #71
Fallacy of relative privation again, along with a straw man. trotsky Nov 2017 #73
So much anger. guillaumeb Nov 2017 #96
Nope. Act_of_Reparation Nov 2017 #153
We all cherish our illusions, do we not? eom guillaumeb Nov 2017 #167
Not as much as some cherish their privilege. Act_of_Reparation Nov 2017 #179
You did? You were? You are? end of message sprinkleeninow Nov 2017 #137
A nice one. guillaumeb Nov 2017 #166
A of R sprinkleeninow Nov 2017 #173
We are supposed to have religious tolerance written into our Constitution. Nitram Nov 2017 #6
Are we? trotsky Nov 2017 #11
Does tolerance imply respect? Nitram Nov 2017 #16
Then do we respect the beliefs of those who are anti-choice? trotsky Nov 2017 #20
One can respect their right to those beliefs, guillaumeb Nov 2017 #33
Exactly! Nitram Nov 2017 #36
Then you're telling those people their beliefs are wrong. trotsky Nov 2017 #64
You misunderstood again. eom guillaumeb Nov 2017 #97
Yes, my mistake. trotsky Nov 2017 #182
Yes, it was, but you compounded by more misframing. eom guillaumeb Nov 2017 #190
But yet you won't explain how I misframed. trotsky Nov 2017 #194
Not ar all. Referring to intelligence. guillaumeb Nov 2017 #199
My tactic of asking you to explain yourself? trotsky Nov 2017 #200
Keep illustrating my point. guillaumeb Nov 2017 #201
Yes, we've established this. My pattern of asking you to explain your "point." trotsky Nov 2017 #202
We respect their right to hold that opinion and we work to get enough votes to prevent their Nitram Nov 2017 #34
"We respect their right to hold that opinion" trotsky Nov 2017 #62
Either you haven't been listening, or I haven't explained myself clearly. Nitram Nov 2017 #66
Then you are arguing against guillaumeb's strawman. trotsky Nov 2017 #67
Madison--you know, one of the main writers of the Constitution--didn't want ministers Cuthbert Allgood Nov 2017 #13
Cuthbert, are you saying that the Constitution allows you to go out and kill or imprison Nitram Nov 2017 #17
What the actual fuck is with your immediate turn to violence? trotsky Nov 2017 #22
I'm being entirely honest. I'm not accusing anyone of anything. Nitram Nov 2017 #35
It really is odd that you say that, Nitram. Mariana Nov 2017 #38
Grow up and stop whining. You are not being burned at the stake or lynched, or being denied the vote Nitram Nov 2017 #49
First world problems indeed, starting with the OP. Mariana Nov 2017 #54
I am very interested in discussing tolerance and respect because it appears to me some people Nitram Nov 2017 #59
Ah, there it is. trotsky Nov 2017 #69
How very clever. Is that a quote or an original idea of yours? Nitram Nov 2017 #72
I'm simply pointing out you are employing that fallacy. trotsky Nov 2017 #74
Trotsky, that icepick must still be firmly lodged in your forebrain. Nitram Nov 2017 #77
I'm glad you can see that the fallacy of relative privation is wrong to use. trotsky Nov 2017 #79
You can dish it out but you just can't take it. Nitram Nov 2017 #83
Just FYI. trotsky Nov 2017 #84
Let's see. You compared me to a right winger in post #69. Nitram Nov 2017 #87
I am content to let my words stand for themselves and let readers judge from the context. trotsky Nov 2017 #88
I was entirely aware of the context. I took issue with the ideas some were expressing in the thread. Nitram Nov 2017 #89
"jumping all over someone who suggests tolerance rather than outrage" trotsky Nov 2017 #90
Not to bring up something you got ruffled about before when Trotsky said Lordquinton Nov 2017 #184
OK, so you equate me with right wingers who always excuse their insults with jokes? Nitram Nov 2017 #207
Congrats, I think you're getting the point. trotsky Nov 2017 #63
I don't agree that it is religious intolerance. We have a right to choose what to read. Nitram Nov 2017 #68
Great! trotsky Nov 2017 #70
Trotsky, get a grip. Nitram Nov 2017 #75
"it is better to just ignore shit we don't like if it doesn't actually harm us" trotsky Nov 2017 #76
I'm sorry you feel embarrassed about your inability to understand the difference between Nitram Nov 2017 #78
Fallacy of relative privation. n/t trotsky Nov 2017 #80
Trosky, old chum, I don't believe you really understand the fallacy of relative privation. Nitram Nov 2017 #82
What's with this sudden rash Lordquinton Nov 2017 #185
By the way, Trotsky, I have not been expressing guillaumeb point of view, I have been Nitram Nov 2017 #81
As well as separation of Church and State. guillaumeb Nov 2017 #26
Are any here actors of the state? Lordquinton Nov 2017 #186
I have no idea. I am a retired Federal worker. guillaumeb Nov 2017 #191
So you know that the first amendment doesn't apply here Lordquinton Nov 2017 #204
The First Amendment protects individual speakers from governmental interference. guillaumeb Nov 2017 #209
I do the things you have listed, but for a different reason. I don't have much respect Nay Nov 2017 #8
Thank you for the excellent response. Tolerance in action.. eom guillaumeb Nov 2017 #27
This is exactly what was described in the post you took such great exception to Lordquinton Nov 2017 #187
I took exception to the assumption of motivation. guillaumeb Nov 2017 #192
And yet you still can't even provide one example of a different motivation. trotsky Nov 2017 #198
What's an alternative? Lordquinton Nov 2017 #205
Stiil pushing your totally unsupportable meme I see. guillaumeb Nov 2017 #210
He is not denying her intention was to spread the word marylandblue Nov 2017 #213
Any dialogue could unintentionally cause insult. guillaumeb Nov 2017 #214
Well it appears you are the one asking us to sit quietly on our rooms marylandblue Nov 2017 #216
Perhaps Cartoonist, and a few others, guillaumeb Nov 2017 #218
Perhaps you should recognize the role of assuming motives in social contexts marylandblue Nov 2017 #219
But assuming motives and then condemning based on those imagined assumptions guillaumeb Nov 2017 #220
No it's actually quite normal marylandblue Nov 2017 #222
And the woman of course had no idea that Cartoonist viewed guillaumeb Nov 2017 #224
If he gave no indication of it, then probably not marylandblue Nov 2017 #225
Some people are easy to read. Cartoonist Nov 2017 #221
True, some people are easy to read. guillaumeb Nov 2017 #223
You seem to me to have trouble understanding motivations of people on DU nt marylandblue Nov 2017 #226
That's what everyone has been saying her motives are Lordquinton Nov 2017 #215
Your first sentence sums up the issue nicely. guillaumeb Nov 2017 #217
Most of you sisters and brothers in humanity who affirm sprinkleeninow Nov 2017 #150
Religious harassment Cartoonist Nov 2017 #12
Cartoonist, you sound very aggrieved. Care to share some of your more traumatic experiences? Nitram Nov 2017 #18
Your anger is evident. guillaumeb Nov 2017 #28
That is because you are blind to your privileged status. Voltaire2 Nov 2017 #14
You are making a lot of assumptions there, Voltaire. Nitram Nov 2017 #19
Yeah well I guess weve had different experiences. Voltaire2 Nov 2017 #37
No, I started as a semi-believer in spite of attending church for only one year of my life (at the Nitram Nov 2017 #48
I dismissed nothing. guillaumeb Nov 2017 #29
oh bullshit. Your op here is yet another case of you running away from the hole you dug yourself Voltaire2 Nov 2017 #40
Well done. guillaumeb Nov 2017 #43
Respect is earned. EvilAL Nov 2017 #21
Assuming facts and motivation not in evidence. guillaumeb Nov 2017 #30
JCOAPS this is not a law court. Voltaire2 Nov 2017 #41
So any claims of motivation are accepted as fact? guillaumeb Nov 2017 #44
You seem not to understand the role of motive attribution in social communication marylandblue Nov 2017 #55
I understand framing, guillaumeb Nov 2017 #98
Framing is a completely different thing, so no marylandblue Nov 2017 #105
What is with your hang-up on motivation? Cartoonist Nov 2017 #85
The woman said she was a missionary. Mariana Nov 2017 #46
Words do have meaning M. guillaumeb Nov 2017 #47
That's pretty funny. EvilAL Nov 2017 #56
Your premise is faulty marylandblue Nov 2017 #53
And when I see such respectful discussion, I notice it and thank the responder. guillaumeb Nov 2017 #100
This message was self-deleted by its author marylandblue Nov 2017 #107
My point is that, contrary to your OP, respect is not at all about attributing motives marylandblue Nov 2017 #109
So the facade of respect is your concern? guillaumeb Nov 2017 #111
No, my concern is the priority of action over feelings marylandblue Nov 2017 #112
So is the action of offering a pamphlet in itself disrespectful? guillaumeb Nov 2017 #113
yes and no Cartoonist Nov 2017 #114
So it was the venue, being in a place of business? guillaumeb Nov 2017 #117
definitely not Cartoonist Nov 2017 #118
I understand. guillaumeb Nov 2017 #120
Yes, the action is disrespectful marylandblue Nov 2017 #115
My primary issue was the expression by the poster that the lady intended to insult him. guillaumeb Nov 2017 #119
He did not say she had bad intent marylandblue Nov 2017 #144
He used the term "insult" when describing her actions. guillaumeb Nov 2017 #164
He said "felt insulted" marylandblue Nov 2017 #177
Cartoonist actually said: guillaumeb Nov 2017 #189
Still does not imply intent marylandblue Nov 2017 #193
Then feel free to explain exactly what you feel Cartoonist meant. guillaumeb Nov 2017 #197
I think it is pretty clear marylandblue Nov 2017 #206
Well explained. guillaumeb Nov 2017 #211
Doesn't have to be an actual work problem marylandblue Nov 2017 #212
HAPPY BIRTHDAY Angry Dragon Nov 2017 #92
Happy Days of Holly and Brandy Soaked Eggnoggins! sprinkleeninow Nov 2017 #133
I am always willing to talk to them Angry Dragon Nov 2017 #134
You do know what 'sect' (I am being kind) I related this incident about. sprinkleeninow Nov 2017 #138
I am afraid I do not............... Angry Dragon Nov 2017 #139
They travel in pairs, males. With their white shirts, black slacks and black brief bags. sprinkleeninow Nov 2017 #149
I'm sure they understand you Mariana Nov 2017 #154
I'm insulted, I haven't seen one in years marylandblue Nov 2017 #160
We eventually put up 'no soliciting' signs adjacent to our sprinkleeninow Nov 2017 #161
So are you defining this for everyone? Lordquinton Nov 2017 #125
If you read the post, you will see that there is no link to an article. guillaumeb Nov 2017 #128
That was a really complex way to say Lordquinton Nov 2017 #131
Exactly. guillaumeb Nov 2017 #165
Ok, it was an opinion piece Lordquinton Nov 2017 #183
If you can't assume motivation from action marylandblue Nov 2017 #146
I trynot to assume ill intent where none was intended..... you have to go with the flow sometimes. Irish_Dem Nov 2017 #130
That's a charitable position to take. sprinkleeninow Nov 2017 #135
I aree, most people sharing a religious belief are well intended, such as in "God Bless You and Irish_Dem Nov 2017 #141
Interesting observation that being Catholic scares them off. I'll use that next time. Nitram Nov 2017 #142
I know it is weird. Irish_Dem Nov 2017 #143
Some evangelicals do believe the Roman Catholic Church Mariana Nov 2017 #145
If that's how they react to catholics marylandblue Nov 2017 #147
I should try this the next time and see what reaction I get. nt Irish_Dem Nov 2017 #156
Wow, I never knew. Gives me a certain power with this group. Irish_Dem Nov 2017 #155
I wrote a post somewhere here why 'some' sprinkleeninow Nov 2017 #152
A friend of mine is Greek Orthodox and gets the same reaction. Irish_Dem Nov 2017 #157
We don't do 'till death do us part' and 'o, promise me.' sprinkleeninow Nov 2017 #162
In this Greek Orthodox wedding it was the same kind of thing. Irish_Dem Nov 2017 #170
Thank you for the appreciation. sprinkleeninow Nov 2017 #174
Roman Catholicism, Orthodox Christianity. sprinkleeninow Nov 2017 #148
These are the best parts of Catholicism in my book. Irish_Dem Nov 2017 #158
I attended a Catholic highschool several years altho' I'm not RC. sprinkleeninow Nov 2017 #168
Yes I am not religious but I still pray to the various saints. Irish_Dem Nov 2017 #171
I enjoy our exchange! 🎁 sprinkleeninow Nov 2017 #175
Yes, I do too. Irish_Dem Nov 2017 #181
A God Bless You or a Merry Christmas could be understandably sprinkleeninow Nov 2017 #151
I have no idea what "being saved" really means. Irish_Dem Nov 2017 #159
He took on the human nature/experience. Becoming like us, He sprinkleeninow Nov 2017 #169
This makes sense, first time I heard a good explanation! Thanks! nt Irish_Dem Nov 2017 #172
I still receive revelation even after decades. There's much more sprinkleeninow Nov 2017 #176
Same to you sprinkle Irish_Dem Nov 2017 #180
An excellent practice for us all. guillaumeb Nov 2017 #163
You're wise beyond your years rock Nov 2017 #178
Well I am definitely in the old category. guillaumeb Nov 2017 #195
I must remember this thread Lordquinton Nov 2017 #188
Can you cite examples of this defcom 5? guillaumeb Nov 2017 #196
It is one sided Lordquinton Nov 2017 #203
Like this? guillaumeb Nov 2017 #208

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
51. My feeling as well.
Thu Nov 16, 2017, 11:06 PM
Nov 2017

It appears to me as if a small portion of the regular posters in this group are determined to categorize billions of believers and the group is upset when a post deviates from their pattern.

Most of us know that intolerance and prejudice and every other negative attribute are human failings that are not specific to any subset of humans.

Thank you.

Merlot

(9,696 posts)
86. Coming to my private home to sell me their religious belierfs is not respect
Fri Nov 17, 2017, 12:13 PM
Nov 2017

on their part. It's a lack of respect for my time, my privacy, my boundaries.

And to be clear, I don't respect others beliefs. I respect their right to belive them. Big difference. It's like not telling a kid there isn't really a tooth fairy or santa claus and waiting for them to grow out of it. Except they are adults, and only a few grow out of it.

yallerdawg

(16,104 posts)
91. The amazing thing is their faith...
Fri Nov 17, 2017, 01:18 PM
Nov 2017

draws them to your door to "share the Good News," not sell you Amway products.

A tract, a Sunday morning show, a knock on the door - these things have demonstrably and completely changed lives for the better!

Comparing Christianity or any religion to the tooth fairy or Santa is not any level of respect I recognize.

Cuthbert Allgood

(4,965 posts)
93. You're shitting me, right?
Fri Nov 17, 2017, 04:12 PM
Nov 2017

"A tract, a Sunday morning show, a knock on the door - these things have demonstrably and completely changed lives for the better!"

You can't be serious.

yallerdawg

(16,104 posts)
94. If you don't think that people of faith...
Fri Nov 17, 2017, 04:21 PM
Nov 2017

have not impacted other's lives, you don't live in a bubble, you're in a hermetically-sealed cocoon!

Mariana

(14,861 posts)
108. Don't forget, they're absolutely not trying to recruit you.
Fri Nov 17, 2017, 10:59 PM
Nov 2017

When they hand you tracts, or televise their religious shows, or knock on your door, none of them are trying to convince you to join their religion. And even if they are, that's not recruitment, it's something else entirely.

And here I thought Gil was a special case, when it comes to pretending words don't mean what they mean.



Can he be serious? I dunno. Maybe it is time to invoke Poe's Law. What do you think?

Mariana

(14,861 posts)
99. I don't know why you think it's an "amazing thing"
Fri Nov 17, 2017, 05:54 PM
Nov 2017

that Christians feel compelled to spread their religion. Recruitment (voluntary or otherwise) has been a common religious practice throughout history. Christians in particular have been instructed to recruit from the very beginning, by Christ himself, if the book is to be believed. Obedience to authority figures isn't generally thought to be an "amazing thing".

yallerdawg

(16,104 posts)
101. I know many good Christians who do good things for people...
Fri Nov 17, 2017, 07:38 PM
Nov 2017

and never say one word about their religion.

It is not an "instruction" and a number of faiths are not looking for "converts" or "recruits."

The instruction they have been given is to "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

Mariana

(14,861 posts)
102. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations
Fri Nov 17, 2017, 07:44 PM
Nov 2017

baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you. --Jesus Christ

This isn't an instruction to recruit? What is it, then?

yallerdawg

(16,104 posts)
103. You're conflating doing good with some notion of "recruitment."
Fri Nov 17, 2017, 07:51 PM
Nov 2017
Beware of practicing your righteousness before other people in order to be seen by them, for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven. “Thus, when you give to the needy, sound no trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may be praised by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you.

Mariana

(14,861 posts)
104. Preaching the gospel, making people into disciples,
Fri Nov 17, 2017, 08:31 PM
Nov 2017

baptizing them into the faith, and teaching them the religion isn't recruiting them? Please. Of course it is.

Recruitment (noun): the action of finding new people to join an organization or support a cause.

You may consider recruiting people into Christianity to be a good deed, but it is still recruitment.

yallerdawg

(16,104 posts)
106. It's as if I didn't post a comment directly refuting your claim.
Fri Nov 17, 2017, 08:39 PM
Nov 2017

"Preaching the gospel, making people into disciples, baptizing them into the faith, and teaching them the religion."

All this from "Merry Christmas."

I am amazed once more.

Angry Dragon

(36,693 posts)
140. A true religion comes from within, anything else is a myth
Sun Nov 19, 2017, 03:21 AM
Nov 2017

organized religion is mostly brainwashing
and this comes from a Reverend

Lordquinton

(7,886 posts)
116. Haven't you said
Sat Nov 18, 2017, 05:42 PM
Nov 2017

"hate the sin, love the sinner?"

Isn't that directly opposed to what this OP is saying?

yallerdawg

(16,104 posts)
121. Non sequitur.
Sat Nov 18, 2017, 07:28 PM
Nov 2017

A conclusion or statement that does not logically follow from the previous argument or statement.

Lordquinton

(7,886 posts)
122. How ironic
Sat Nov 18, 2017, 07:57 PM
Nov 2017

You post a non-sequitor in response to me.

This is a thread about respecting others beliefs, the phrase "hate the sin, love the sinner" is essentially the same thing as saying that you should respect people, but don't have to respect beliefs.

yallerdawg

(16,104 posts)
126. How do you confuse "sin" and "respect?"
Sat Nov 18, 2017, 08:08 PM
Nov 2017

Sin - an immoral act considered to be a transgression against divine law.

Respect - a feeling of deep admiration for someone or something elicited by their abilities, qualities, or achievements.

How are these "the same thing?"

Lordquinton

(7,886 posts)
127. You seem really confused on the issue
Sat Nov 18, 2017, 08:18 PM
Nov 2017

It's not sin and respect, it's sin and belief. First of all, declaring that what someone does or is as a "an immoral act considered to be a transgression against divine law." generally used on things like LGBTQIA issues, which is abhorrent to begin with.

So that phrase is a declaration that you are not respecting their "beliefs" or more often "Who they are as a person." in fact, you're actively hating them.

Way worse than smiling and nodding, then just tossing the pamphlet after they are long out of sight.

yallerdawg

(16,104 posts)
129. I'm not at all confused, and declaring I am doesn't make it so.
Sat Nov 18, 2017, 08:40 PM
Nov 2017

Your religious intolerance is quite clear when you hold that someone else's "belief" is an act of hate.

"Love the sinner, hate the sin" is not an expression of hate towards any person. It is a difference in belief about things WE DO.

It is not about hate and condemnation.

It is about love and salvation.

Lordquinton

(7,886 posts)
132. wat
Sat Nov 18, 2017, 09:58 PM
Nov 2017

The phrase literally has hate in it, and you say it's not about hate.

How can you ever say that with a straight face?

Oh, oh I get it "Your intolerance" "My love and salvation"

I see how it is.

Thanks for the clarification.

sprinkleeninow

(20,263 posts)
136. It's 'wott'. Heheh.
Sun Nov 19, 2017, 02:39 AM
Nov 2017

In love, I must say that this phrase can be troublesome.

It is not found in Holy Scripture.

There are verses that speak of love and that falling short/'sin' is harmful to a person's true being/self, but this cliched phrase is not written.

Again, please forgive me one and all if I have offended by stating such.

Glorfindel

(9,736 posts)
2. I totally agree with you, guillaumeb. Honestly, when I say "Merry Christmas," I'm thinking more
Thu Nov 16, 2017, 02:14 PM
Nov 2017

about Charles Dickens than the miraculous birth in Bethlehem. Also, we never said (and I still don't) "God bless you" when someone sneezed, just "bless you." The word "god" was not ever to be uttered lightly, even with the best of intentions. And growing up as a Methodist in a county that was, and is, 90% Baptist, I learned very early to respect others' beliefs, or at least pretend to, or I'd get my ass kicked. Thank you for a thoughtful and thought-provoking post.

Act_of_Reparation

(9,116 posts)
10. How is it *you* didn't get some snide comment about sarcasm?
Thu Nov 16, 2017, 02:56 PM
Nov 2017

Did I forget to shower today or something?

ExciteBike66

(2,374 posts)
4. I don't think "respect" is the correct word here.
Thu Nov 16, 2017, 02:28 PM
Nov 2017

It looks like you mean "be polite", and I agree. I say Merry Christmas all the time even though I am 100% not a believer in any gods.

When you use the word "respect", it seems to me you are asking that we take religious beliefs seriously.

Or perhaps it should have been "respect people", instead of "respect beliefs"?

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
31. It is both in my view.
Thu Nov 16, 2017, 06:01 PM
Nov 2017

I would not ask anyone to agree with my beliefs, or the beliefs of others. But it seems to me that sometimes people aere guilty of assuming motivation in the complete absence of proof.

I ask only that people respect the right of everyone to hold their own beliefs.

Nitram

(22,890 posts)
15. If you consider John Knowles pretentious, unoriginal and vapid, the you are right.
Thu Nov 16, 2017, 04:40 PM
Nov 2017

Believe me, no one will be quoting you, least of all, me.

Voltaire2

(13,177 posts)
39. The thing is that it isn't the person being quoted who is pretentious, unoriginal and vapid.
Thu Nov 16, 2017, 07:15 PM
Nov 2017

I thought that was obvious.

Nitram

(22,890 posts)
50. Then you completely failed to get the point.
Thu Nov 16, 2017, 10:58 PM
Nov 2017

Last edited Fri Nov 17, 2017, 09:58 AM - Edit history (1)

I thought that was obvious.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
32. Personally, I always reply in the way as the speaker.
Thu Nov 16, 2017, 06:03 PM
Nov 2017

I say happy holiday to those who wish me one, Merry Christmas to those who wish me one, etc. I see that a simple politeness rather than agreement on matters of belief.

Act_of_Reparation

(9,116 posts)
42. "I see"
Thu Nov 16, 2017, 07:40 PM
Nov 2017

What you see -- or rather what you don't see -- is the chief issue here. You have not experienced, nor do you seem particularly interested in understanding, what the rest of us have experienced. Case in point, you automatically interpret objections to Christmas wishes as a matter of differences in belief, rather than a matter of Christian privilege.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
45. And not having lived my life, you have no idea of my experiences either.
Thu Nov 16, 2017, 08:05 PM
Nov 2017

But in spite of that, you feel able to claim many things about my motives and experiences.

In a country that is majority theist, why would anyone be surprised if a majority of people might wish people a happy holiday at Christmas time?

And why do you accept the posters assumption of motive on the part of the lady?

Act_of_Reparation

(9,116 posts)
58. Oh, for fuck's sake.
Fri Nov 17, 2017, 08:54 AM
Nov 2017

This is the precisely the problem with you. I point out that you aren't seeing this issue within the context of being an atheist in a society where Christianity is a privileged group. Do you take pause and ask what the atheist experience is? No. Because you're not fucking interested.

And you can stowe that crap about the experience of Christians. Most of us weren't brought up atheist. I spent half my life in the Roman Catholic Church, and I'm pretty goddamned familiar with what it is like to be Roman Catholic.

Nitram

(22,890 posts)
60. Oh, reparation, you sound so very angry, unhappy, and persecuted.
Fri Nov 17, 2017, 10:03 AM
Nov 2017

What privilege does any Christian have that you don't have because you are an atheist? You sound like you have an enormous ex-Roman-Catholic chip on your shoulder. Perhaps the church damaged you for life. Or, on the other hand, maybe you just need to drop some of that baggage and start living your life again. For fuck's sake.

Nitram

(22,890 posts)
71. I'm sorry, just because we're in a minority doesn't mean we're being persecuted.
Fri Nov 17, 2017, 11:09 AM
Nov 2017

I have better things to do than moan about any of the items on your list. The writer of the list obviously feels entitled and longs for the larger community available to religionists.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
73. Fallacy of relative privation again, along with a straw man.
Fri Nov 17, 2017, 11:18 AM
Nov 2017

No one has said non-believers are persecuted. That's your straw man.

The list, while it contains nothing close to what anyone would consider to be grossly unreasonable, does however indicate the value of religious privilege, much like white privilege.

sprinkleeninow

(20,263 posts)
173. A of R
Sun Nov 19, 2017, 10:41 PM
Nov 2017

spent half their life in the Roman Catholic Church exclaiming they know quite well what it's about.
I responded to that.

The 'massage' typo was compliments of your friendly neighborhood auto correct. Now I just corrected auto.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
11. Are we?
Thu Nov 16, 2017, 03:33 PM
Nov 2017

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

The First Amendment only describes what our government can or cannot do.

It does not force citizens to respect anything.

Nitram

(22,890 posts)
16. Does tolerance imply respect?
Thu Nov 16, 2017, 04:45 PM
Nov 2017

The Constitution actually forces no one to do anything. It does, however, point the way to better ways to live in harmony with people who are different from us. Do you advocate going out and shooting everyone who believes in god, or are you willing to tolerate their presence? Perhaps tolerance requires our respect of the right of other people to be different.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
20. Then do we respect the beliefs of those who are anti-choice?
Thu Nov 16, 2017, 05:07 PM
Nov 2017

By keeping abortion legal, we are not tolerating their beliefs, and in their eyes, are allowing the "murder" of "babies."

You understand yet why this isn't as easy as "can't you atheists just shut up and quit criticizing religion"?

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
33. One can respect their right to those beliefs,
Thu Nov 16, 2017, 06:04 PM
Nov 2017

while working to ensure that those beliefs are not codified into law.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
64. Then you're telling those people their beliefs are wrong.
Fri Nov 17, 2017, 10:33 AM
Nov 2017

How intolerant of you!

Or is it that disagreeing with someone ISN'T actually religious intolerance?

Interesting spot you've put yourself into. Go ahead, try to wriggle out.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
182. Yes, my mistake.
Mon Nov 20, 2017, 11:43 AM
Nov 2017

When you tell other people they're wrong, that's fine.

When atheists do it, they're being intolerant of religion.

I think everyone understands fully.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
194. But yet you won't explain how I misframed.
Mon Nov 20, 2017, 05:59 PM
Nov 2017

Why is that?

Do you think I'm too stupid to explain it to?

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
199. Not ar all. Referring to intelligence.
Mon Nov 20, 2017, 06:26 PM
Nov 2017

I have no issue with your intelligence, simply your tactics. And others do as well.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
200. My tactic of asking you to explain yourself?
Mon Nov 20, 2017, 06:27 PM
Nov 2017

How dare I! You got me!

If that's how you have to bow out, so be it. I knew you couldn't explain yourself, because this was about attacking Cartoonist and nothing else. You're busted.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
202. Yes, we've established this. My pattern of asking you to explain your "point."
Mon Nov 20, 2017, 06:32 PM
Nov 2017

You refuse.

Everyone can tell what that means.

Nitram

(22,890 posts)
34. We respect their right to hold that opinion and we work to get enough votes to prevent their
Thu Nov 16, 2017, 06:12 PM
Nov 2017

views from being passed into law. If we don't, We are just as intolerant as someone who doesn't want to allow gay marriage.

Clearly you have a mac truck sized chip on your shoulder with your "can't you atheists just shut up and quit criticizing religion"? I'm not a believer but I haven't encountered that because I don't criticize religion. I criticize policies that infringe on my own and other people's rights whether they are based on religion or not. Frankly I don't care if their opinions are based on religion. Atheists can be just as stupid and illogical as religious people when it comes to policy. George Will is an atheist.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
62. "We respect their right to hold that opinion"
Fri Nov 17, 2017, 10:29 AM
Nov 2017

So where are these horrible atheists who aren't allowing religious people the right to hold their opinions? Please point them out to me.

What I see is you and your friend guillaumeb arguing against a straw man. Please show how what g-man is so upset about (see this thread) is an example of someone not tolerating someone else's right to believe.

Go ahead, knock this chip off my shoulder. Or tell guillaumeb he's wrong. Your choice.

Nitram

(22,890 posts)
66. Either you haven't been listening, or I haven't explained myself clearly.
Fri Nov 17, 2017, 11:00 AM
Nov 2017

I didn't say there are horrible atheists who aren't allowing religious people etc." You are in fact the one arguing against the straw man of what you expect to read rather than what I actually wrote. Please show me where I wrote "horrible atheists aren't allowing religious people the right to hold their opinions."

I tried to say, "where are these horrible religionists who aren't allowing atheists the right to hold their opinions?" I am suggesting that we stop whining about criticism from religionists. I am suggesting we ignore their religious view and focus on policy instead. We achieve that at the ballot box and by persuading people to vote for the policies we like. We also have the option of suing when unconstitutional laws are passed by religionists. When have you been persecuted by religionists? Are you that sensitive to criticism of atheism by a religionist? That's the realm of opinion and debate, not actual physical andd mental harm.

[Knocks chip off shoulder]

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
67. Then you are arguing against guillaumeb's strawman.
Fri Nov 17, 2017, 11:03 AM
Nov 2017

Go read the thread that upset him, and tell him how he's wrong.

Chip still in place.

Cuthbert Allgood

(4,965 posts)
13. Madison--you know, one of the main writers of the Constitution--didn't want ministers
Thu Nov 16, 2017, 03:57 PM
Nov 2017

to be able to be able to hold public office because he thought it broke the wall of separation. But, yeah, whatever makes you happy. The US Constitution only deals with what the government can do. It most certainly DOES NOT tell me that I have to tolerate a religion.

Nitram

(22,890 posts)
17. Cuthbert, are you saying that the Constitution allows you to go out and kill or imprison
Thu Nov 16, 2017, 04:48 PM
Nov 2017

those with religious beliefs. I believe that's exactly what the framers wanted to avoid, as that is what many were fleeing when the left Europe. Doesn't it actually require us to respect their right to practice a religion - as well as the right not to believe or practice religion?

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
22. What the actual fuck is with your immediate turn to violence?
Thu Nov 16, 2017, 05:09 PM
Nov 2017

NO ONE HERE has even come CLOSE to suggesting any kind of physical violence against believers.

NO ONE HERE has even come CLOSE to suggesting that people shouldn't be allowed to believe. (Like you could enforce that in any way!)

Please, argue your point on honest terms.

Nitram

(22,890 posts)
35. I'm being entirely honest. I'm not accusing anyone of anything.
Thu Nov 16, 2017, 06:15 PM
Nov 2017

I'm using an extreme example to demonstrate that you probably do tolerate religion. If you didn't, you'd be expected to take some extreme to eradicate it. I suspect you may not be clear on the meaning of tolerance.

Mariana

(14,861 posts)
38. It really is odd that you say that, Nitram.
Thu Nov 16, 2017, 06:46 PM
Nov 2017

We're constantly being told in this group that we are "intolerant" of religion and of religious people. Why, there's a recent thread in which the OP was told he was "intolerant" because he related an encounter with a religious person in which he politely took a religious tract from someone, and then threw it in the trash after that person left the building. Clearly, we aren't all using the same definition of the word.

Nitram

(22,890 posts)
49. Grow up and stop whining. You are not being burned at the stake or lynched, or being denied the vote
Thu Nov 16, 2017, 10:57 PM
Nov 2017

Yes, the Christian right are a bunch of whiners complaining about persecution. Don't follow their stupid example. First World Problems see to be dominating this conversation.

Mariana

(14,861 posts)
54. First world problems indeed, starting with the OP.
Thu Nov 16, 2017, 11:55 PM
Nov 2017

So what? Lighten the fuck up. If you don't want to discuss tolerance and intolerance and first world problems, why are you posting about those things on this particular thread in the first place?

Nitram

(22,890 posts)
59. I am very interested in discussing tolerance and respect because it appears to me some people
Fri Nov 17, 2017, 09:58 AM
Nov 2017

on this thread have a deep misunderstanding of both concepts. And I do have a low tolerance for whining about persecution from both Christians and atheists. I'd like to see everybody show a bit more respect and tolerance for other people's rights. Does that disturb you?

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
69. Ah, there it is.
Fri Nov 17, 2017, 11:06 AM
Nov 2017

The fallacy of relative privation.

Common tool used by the right wing to dismiss the concerns of minorities in the USA. It shouldn't be used here on DU.

Nitram

(22,890 posts)
72. How very clever. Is that a quote or an original idea of yours?
Fri Nov 17, 2017, 11:12 AM
Nov 2017

On DU you shouldn't imply that I'm a right winger just because I'm indifferent to the privations you allege are imposed on you as an atheist. I have never been the victim of such a privation.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
74. I'm simply pointing out you are employing that fallacy.
Fri Nov 17, 2017, 11:21 AM
Nov 2017

I don't think you're a right winger, I'm merely noting that they make great use of that fallacy to dismiss LGBT and racial minority concerns. Like "oh, a gay couple can't get a cake, how horrible, at least they don't live somewhere where they'd be executed. They should shut up."

That's the attitude you have taken in these threads.

Nitram

(22,890 posts)
77. Trotsky, that icepick must still be firmly lodged in your forebrain.
Fri Nov 17, 2017, 11:34 AM
Nov 2017

Perhaps you can tell me the term for the fallacy you are employing in assuming I am talking about ignoring a denial of my rights as opposed to ignoring the mere expression of another person's opinion. I find your irrelevant and inaccurate generalizations about me both rude and illogical. Calm down, take a deep breath, and try to understand my point. You still don't get it.

When a gay couple can't buy a cake because of their sexual orientation, that is a denial of their rights. When a religulous person accuses you of being intolerant, that is an expression of their opinion. Get it? Two very different situations. If you can document that you have been denied your rights as a citizen because you are an atheist, then I believe you have been sorely mistreated and should take steps to redress that wrong. If you are pissed of because your feeling were hurt by someone's opinion, then I'd say, "deal with it."

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
79. I'm glad you can see that the fallacy of relative privation is wrong to use.
Fri Nov 17, 2017, 11:37 AM
Nov 2017

I'm sad you still don't understand that you are using it.

I tire of your personal insults that you are flinging at everyone. Please have the last word, I'm done with you.

Nitram

(22,890 posts)
83. You can dish it out but you just can't take it.
Fri Nov 17, 2017, 11:44 AM
Nov 2017

You don't even realize how insulting your own debating style actually is.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
84. Just FYI.
Fri Nov 17, 2017, 12:03 PM
Nov 2017

I never insinuated you are stupid by making reference to an object being lodged in your brain. You did that to me in post #77.

I have not told anyone to "grow up" and "stop whining." You did that to Mariana in post #49. You also called Voltaire2 a "whiner" in #48.

I have not told anyone to "drop (their) baggage" like you did to Act_of_Reparation in post #60.

So yeah, I'll happily put my "debating style" up next to yours ANY DAY. I don't dish out what you are doing. I point it out, and walk away.


Nitram

(22,890 posts)
87. Let's see. You compared me to a right winger in post #69.
Fri Nov 17, 2017, 12:25 PM
Nov 2017

You accused me of arguing that " horrible atheists...aren't allowing religious people the right to hold their opinions" in Post #62. You cussed at me in Post #22 "What the actual fuck is with your immediate turn to violence?" Accused me of expressing anti-gay opinions I never had in Post #74: "Like 'oh, a gay couple can't get a cake, how horrible, at least they don't live somewhere where they'd be executed. They should shut up.' That's the attitude you have taken in these threads." You implied that I disagreed with you because I am guillaumeb's friend in Post # 70 "Tell your friend guillaumeb." Truth is, I don't base my opinions on my friendships. Do you?

By the way, the ice pick in the frontal lobe bit was obviously a joke, Trotsky. That's how your namesake was murdered in Mexico city, was it not? I admit my sense of humor can be a bit dark on occasion. But I honestly thought you'd be amused instead of walking away in a huff.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
88. I am content to let my words stand for themselves and let readers judge from the context.
Fri Nov 17, 2017, 12:36 PM
Nov 2017

I didn't compare you to a right-winger, I compared a TACTIC you were using, namely the fallacy of false privation. Etc.

But there is no context that makes your name-calling and insinuations of stupidity look any better.

And while I know how Leon Trotsky was assassinated, my username has nothing do to with him. I acknowledge you had no way of knowing this. But I don't give a shit about that, the insult was to my intellect. And for that reason, yeah, I'm not amused. So if you need to avoid addressing that insult and just claim I'm "walking away in a huff," fine. I don't give a shit.

What you are most guilty of, it appears, is jumping into THIS thread without being aware of the context - namely, the other thread where guillaumeb was the person who got all upset about "religious intolerance". He's the one you should have jumped on. Everyone else has been mocking his claims of religious intolerance or pointing out the religious privilege he is enjoying in order to make the claims of intolerance, and you've attacked them instead of him for his initial "whine."

Nitram

(22,890 posts)
89. I was entirely aware of the context. I took issue with the ideas some were expressing in the thread.
Fri Nov 17, 2017, 12:44 PM
Nov 2017

Isn't that my right? I was not intent on "jumping on" anyone. Isn't that what you were doing to guillaumeb ? I just expressed my opinion. I guess I'm a bit too outspoken for a thread where atheists are intent on comforting each other in their hour of great need. And jumping all over someone who suggests tolerance rather than outrage is the best way to deal with religious people's opinions. Not complaining about their allegedly enormous advantages in society.

I apologize for offending you with my lame joke about Trosky's demise. I was hoping you'd get the point. Get it? The "Point?" Oh, never mind.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
90. "jumping all over someone who suggests tolerance rather than outrage"
Fri Nov 17, 2017, 12:55 PM
Nov 2017

As I pointed out, it was guillaumeb who brought the outrage. After Cartoonist quietly TOLERATED a religious person proselytizing in his face. You're not "too outspoken," you're just lashing out at the wrong people, and insulting them instead of honestly critiquing their opinions.

Lordquinton

(7,886 posts)
184. Not to bring up something you got ruffled about before when Trotsky said
Mon Nov 20, 2017, 03:47 PM
Nov 2017

but that whole "Just a joke" thing? You know who else uses that constantly?

You're not winning any hearts and minds here.

Nitram

(22,890 posts)
207. OK, so you equate me with right wingers who always excuse their insults with jokes?
Mon Nov 20, 2017, 10:29 PM
Nov 2017

If you can't see that was a joke, you have a right wing "sense of humor."

Fuck your hearts and minds!

(Not a joke)

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
63. Congrats, I think you're getting the point.
Fri Nov 17, 2017, 10:31 AM
Nov 2017

guillaumeb says that going on the Internet after an encounter with a believer who shoved a tract at you, to relate that you kindly and politely allowed them to go about their business but LATER and OUT OF THEIR VIEW threw the tract away, is religious intolerance.

Do you agree with him that the incident WAS religious intolerance, or do you agree with me that it WAS NOT?

Nitram

(22,890 posts)
68. I don't agree that it is religious intolerance. We have a right to choose what to read.
Fri Nov 17, 2017, 11:04 AM
Nov 2017

Personally I don't accept the offer to take a religious tract unless I am interested in reading it. That's not religious intolerance either.

Maybe we should carry a pocket version of Das Kapital or something by Dawkins to hand out in exchange for kooky religious tracts?

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
70. Great!
Fri Nov 17, 2017, 11:07 AM
Nov 2017

Tell your friend guillaumeb. The only chip around here is actually on HIS shoulder. Go knock that one off.

Nitram

(22,890 posts)
75. Trotsky, get a grip.
Fri Nov 17, 2017, 11:24 AM
Nov 2017

And, for the record, I don't know who guillaumeb is. But I thought he had a point in that sometimes it is better to just ignore shit we don't like if it doesn't actually harm us. I lived overseas most of my life, in a number of different countries, and that comes to me very easily. I would suggest if you feel wronged and harmed by such insignificant daily incidents, then you should look for a gated community of like-minded people and never venture forth into the outside world.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
76. "it is better to just ignore shit we don't like if it doesn't actually harm us"
Fri Nov 17, 2017, 11:27 AM
Nov 2017

That wasn't guillaumeb's point.

That was Cartoonist's point. He politely let the woman do her thing, and then disposed of her religious tract. Where the religious intolerance part came from, according to guillaumeb, was coming to the Internet to anonymously relate the story and admit that the material was thrown in the trash.

Get a grip, indeed. You've been chastising the wrong people this whole time. How embarrassing.

Nitram

(22,890 posts)
78. I'm sorry you feel embarrassed about your inability to understand the difference between
Fri Nov 17, 2017, 11:36 AM
Nov 2017

having your feelings hurt and having your rights denied.

Nitram

(22,890 posts)
82. Trosky, old chum, I don't believe you really understand the fallacy of relative privation.
Fri Nov 17, 2017, 11:42 AM
Nov 2017

There is a real difference between being denied one's rights as a citizen and feeling bad because someone doesn't like your point of view. The fallacy of relative privation, for example, does not maintain that there is no real difference between being chilly because you forgot to bring a sweater, and dying of the cold because someone tied you up and locked you in a freezer.

Lordquinton

(7,886 posts)
185. What's with this sudden rash
Mon Nov 20, 2017, 03:51 PM
Nov 2017

of complete no faith*, dishonest arguing around here?

*Faith here is used not in the religious sense.

Nitram

(22,890 posts)
81. By the way, Trotsky, I have not been expressing guillaumeb point of view, I have been
Fri Nov 17, 2017, 11:38 AM
Nov 2017

expressing my own point of view. All along. I am amazed that you've had such difficulty figuring that out.

Lordquinton

(7,886 posts)
186. Are any here actors of the state?
Mon Nov 20, 2017, 03:52 PM
Nov 2017

Aside from me, I mean...

And in my "state" actions, I never discriminate, in fact I got out of my way to make things fair where they haven't been.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
209. The First Amendment protects individual speakers from governmental interference.
Mon Nov 20, 2017, 10:38 PM
Nov 2017

With some limited exceptions.

Nay

(12,051 posts)
8. I do the things you have listed, but for a different reason. I don't have much respect
Thu Nov 16, 2017, 02:49 PM
Nov 2017

for most religious beliefs themselves, but I respect the right of the person to believe things I consider nonsense. IOW, I respect the individual's right to believe [whatever], but rarely respect the belief itself. I am polite to those who come to my door with religious tracts, but am happy to inform them that I am a long-time atheist and am not looking for a religious home. I don't do that in a nasty way -- I do it with a smile and a "have a good day!" I think it's important for religious people to learn that non-religious people can be just as happy and pleasant with their non-belief as they are with their belief.

On the other hand, if religious people expect me to "respect" their beliefs by codifying some of them into secular laws, I will not go along with that. (abortion ban, etc.)

Lordquinton

(7,886 posts)
187. This is exactly what was described in the post you took such great exception to
Mon Nov 20, 2017, 03:54 PM
Nov 2017

and here you are praising it? Again great inconsistency from you. This whole thing is much ado about nothing.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
198. And yet you still can't even provide one example of a different motivation.
Mon Nov 20, 2017, 06:25 PM
Nov 2017

People look to spread their religion because they think it's superior.

Tell me what other reasons they might have to spread their religion. I doubt you can.

Lordquinton

(7,886 posts)
205. What's an alternative?
Mon Nov 20, 2017, 07:18 PM
Nov 2017

Provide one that takes the entire situation into account.

BTW,I know we've had this discussion here before, but intent and outcome don't have to be the same. The "I didn't mean to offend X" is often used in many circumstances, like "hey, don't be offended, it was just a joke" is a common one used by the right wing to get away with all kinds of horrible stuff. Look it up sometime, or you mingh find yourself accidentally defending a certain group again...

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
210. Stiil pushing your totally unsupportable meme I see.
Mon Nov 20, 2017, 10:40 PM
Nov 2017

Cartoonist decided what the motivation was. An alternative is that she feels that her beliefs call on her to spread the word. But admitting that as an alternative does not permit a reading of insult and intolerance on her part.

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
213. He is not denying her intention was to spread the word
Tue Nov 21, 2017, 01:11 AM
Nov 2017

He is saying that spreading the word could unintentionally cause insult. Stop making a connection that isn't there.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
214. Any dialogue could unintentionally cause insult.
Tue Nov 21, 2017, 01:00 PM
Nov 2017

Should we all sit quietly in our rooms?

I think this post is a perfect example of searching for something to be insulted about.

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
216. Well it appears you are the one asking us to sit quietly on our rooms
Tue Nov 21, 2017, 01:55 PM
Nov 2017

Cartoonist did not say he was insulted to the woman. He did not insult her back. He just quietly took it and threw it away and anonymously complained about it here, in a group where we discuss religious matters.

Should he not have told us about it then? Should he keep his feelings to himself because the woman meant no harm?

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
218. Perhaps Cartoonist, and a few others,
Tue Nov 21, 2017, 02:33 PM
Nov 2017

should stop presuming what the motive was and actually ask the person. But that would require actual dialogue, and for some, insult and innuendo replace actual dialogue.

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
219. Perhaps you should recognize the role of assuming motives in social contexts
Tue Nov 21, 2017, 02:40 PM
Nov 2017

Most of us do it all the time, automatically and usually unconsciously. It's a normal subtext of communication. Not everyone does it, but the people who don't often have trouble with social communication. Some of those people may even have diagnosable disorders. So get off your high horse. You might as well attack people for breathing.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
220. But assuming motives and then condemning based on those imagined assumptions
Tue Nov 21, 2017, 02:43 PM
Nov 2017

is also delusional thinking, is it not?

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
222. No it's actually quite normal
Tue Nov 21, 2017, 03:20 PM
Nov 2017

Like I said, it's part of social communication. It likely had survival value in our tribal days. People who intuitively understood the motivations of others could gain social status, or avoid/win in situations of conflict and anticipate how other are likely to react to your own actions. These intuitions are partly inherent, for example, if someone raises their fist to you, you understand that they are angry and likely to hit you, you don't need to ask what their motivation is.

Or they can be social, for example if someone hands you evangelical literature, you understand they are attempting to proselytize you, not handing you a random piece of paper found on the street. You know that the person believes you are need in salvation, and is assuming you need to read it. Nothing needs to be said. The paper IS the communication.

This is how social communication works. You are at a significant social disadvantage if your mind does not work this way. You may not even realize how much of a disadvantage it is, because you will be missing a large part of the generally assumed social context occurring around you. Psychologists even have a name for this - Theory of Mind. We intuitively construct theories about what goes on in other people's minds. The theories are based on genetics and learned social constructs. Like I said, not everyone does it, but the people who don't often find themselves at a social disadvantage. People who are good at constructing accurate theories usually have high emotional intelligence.

So the problem for Cartoonist, is not that he may have assumed a motivation, but that there is a cultural clash between what he believes to be an acceptable interaction and what the woman believed to be acceptable. This cultural clash is actually part of the larger cultural wars going on in our society right now, this one being between a growing atheist group and an older evangelical Christian group.

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
225. If he gave no indication of it, then probably not
Tue Nov 21, 2017, 03:40 PM
Nov 2017

Which is why this discussion resulted in cries of "Christian privilege." In our society, you are not expected to take offense if you are handed an evangelical Christian tract. The assumption is that this is normal behavior. You don't need to ask if the other person would like to read it. This is despite the fact that there are people of many faiths plus atheists and secularists in our country.

It's also something that Cartoonist would probably like to change, where instead of just handing you the tract, the proselytizer is expected to say first, "Would you like to read about Jesus?" and give you the opportunity to say yes or no.

Cartoonist

(7,323 posts)
221. Some people are easy to read.
Tue Nov 21, 2017, 03:18 PM
Nov 2017

And you have yet to come up with any alternative motivation than that which I have described.
As for a dialogue, the incident as reported showed that the lady had no interest in a dialogue. She handed out her paper without asking if I would be interested. She then gave me some biographical information I wasn't interested in either, then quickly exited. This was neither the time or place for such a dialogue.

Look, the onus here is all on the lady. No great crime, but she was in the wrong all the way. Quit trying to paint her as the victim, and atheists as misunderstanding meanies.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
223. True, some people are easy to read.
Tue Nov 21, 2017, 03:25 PM
Nov 2017

The motives of some are so easy to read because they are displayed for all to see.

It even happens at DU, where the framing and explanations that accompany some posts admit of only one possible motivation.

But in your response, you mention that it is no great crime. Why even characterize it as any type of crime? Unless your business has a sign posted prohibiting people from leaving pamphlets, her actions were, at worst, a bother to you personally.

And I said nothing about atheists in general, my remarks were addressed to those few non-theists who seemed to view her actions negatively, or as proceeding from a negative mindset.

Lordquinton

(7,886 posts)
215. That's what everyone has been saying her motives are
Tue Nov 21, 2017, 01:55 PM
Nov 2017

I guess it all comes down to the fact that she's christian, so it's ok for her to evangelize. Were the shoe on the other foot we'd be getting several new posts a day about "Evangelical Atheists" and how horrible they are like we did in the good old days.

I get it, you don't understand how someone could feel insulted by something, and you put more on the person's intent, than what effects the act ultimately had. That's also known as blaming the victim.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
217. Your first sentence sums up the issue nicely.
Tue Nov 21, 2017, 02:32 PM
Nov 2017

As it totally undercuts your point in the rest of the response.

sprinkleeninow

(20,263 posts)
150. Most of you sisters and brothers in humanity who affirm
Sun Nov 19, 2017, 05:26 PM
Nov 2017

atheism or agnosticism are not as unsettling or unpleasant as some who profess to be christian.

Yut-oh. Wott did I just say.🤗

Cartoonist

(7,323 posts)
12. Religious harassment
Thu Nov 16, 2017, 03:34 PM
Nov 2017
It seems to me that true tolerance lies in not assuming any negative motivation on the part of another unless there is direct evidence of such negative motivation.


So you're okay with someone groping another if their motivation is positive? That's how it feels like being an atheist and getting handed a shit sandwich and told to like it or be called intolerant and condescending.

Nitram

(22,890 posts)
18. Cartoonist, you sound very aggrieved. Care to share some of your more traumatic experiences?
Thu Nov 16, 2017, 05:02 PM
Nov 2017

I am not a believer, and I have not been handed any religious shit sandwiches so far. I probably have another 20 years left, so it could still happen I suppose.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
28. Your anger is evident.
Thu Nov 16, 2017, 05:56 PM
Nov 2017

But unless you have some special knowledge or direct knowledge about an individual actor, it is better to assume that no offense is intended. Agreed?

Voltaire2

(13,177 posts)
14. That is because you are blind to your privileged status.
Thu Nov 16, 2017, 04:28 PM
Nov 2017

Which is quite typical. Perhaps you might try listening to the experiences of the non religious instead of dismissing them as you just did in this op.

Nitram

(22,890 posts)
19. You are making a lot of assumptions there, Voltaire.
Thu Nov 16, 2017, 05:04 PM
Nov 2017

You sound a bit like the more religious people I've known. As a non-believer I have not found myself to be in a particularly unprivileged position.

Voltaire2

(13,177 posts)
37. Yeah well I guess weve had different experiences.
Thu Nov 16, 2017, 06:43 PM
Nov 2017

Did you grow up as a non believer? Were you never made to feel uncomfortable about your status? Never reluctant to reply honestly when asked what religion you were? The question is generally “what church” not “what religion” unless you appear non-Christian.

We are one of the most religious developed countries in the world. We have openly theocratic politicians in positions of power at the local state and national level. Not being Christian makes one an outsider, not being religious puts one even further out.

Merry fucking Christmas indeed.

Nitram

(22,890 posts)
48. No, I started as a semi-believer in spite of attending church for only one year of my life (at the
Thu Nov 16, 2017, 10:54 PM
Nov 2017

Last edited Fri Nov 17, 2017, 10:10 AM - Edit history (1)

age of ten). No one ever made to feel uncomfortable, but I'm not a confrontational sort of person and don't like offending people just for the fun of it. I've never been asked what church I belong to. I wonder why you were? I find a lot of my fellow agnostics and atheists to be a bunch of whiners, much like Christians who complain of persecution. Merry fucking humanism to you too.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
29. I dismissed nothing.
Thu Nov 16, 2017, 05:57 PM
Nov 2017

Are you fine with dismissing others and assuming what their motivation must be?

Voltaire2

(13,177 posts)
40. oh bullshit. Your op here is yet another case of you running away from the hole you dug yourself
Thu Nov 16, 2017, 07:24 PM
Nov 2017

into in a different thread by starting up a new thread. You are attempting to re-frame your argument, but you are still dismissing as "intolerant" Cartoonist's short essay on his experience of life as a non-believer.

Yes you are just a saint, being so kind to all your fellow christians wishing you merry fucking christmas. It must be such a struggle to refrain from replying "merry christmas" to "happy HOLY DAYS". Bless you.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
43. Well done.
Thu Nov 16, 2017, 08:02 PM
Nov 2017

I shall look for this exact same response in the very similarly titled thread that a non-theist recently posted. Coincidentally, it was posted after mine appeared.

What I dismissed as intolerance was the attitude of the poster in assuming a motivation on the part of the lady.

And as I said, I respond in the same way in which I am greeted. I also wish Muslim acquaintances an Eid Mubarak when it is appropriate. If you wished me a merry festivus I would wish you one back.

EvilAL

(1,437 posts)
21. Respect is earned.
Thu Nov 16, 2017, 05:07 PM
Nov 2017

That doesn't mean disrespect is the default, but I am under no obligation to respect anyone for any reason, especially if they throw religious stuff in my face for no reason. When I have to go to church for some function or other, wedding/funeral, I don't start yammering on about how full of shit the bible is. That would be disrespectful.
Also, the OP of the thread that I assume sparked this post of your was at WORK when the person decided they could just give them religious material. The customer knew the person wouldn't be able to object and would smile and say thank you.
How's that for respect.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
30. Assuming facts and motivation not in evidence.
Thu Nov 16, 2017, 05:58 PM
Nov 2017

And absent facts and proof of motivation, it shows more about the person making the assumption.

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
55. You seem not to understand the role of motive attribution in social communication
Fri Nov 17, 2017, 02:49 AM
Nov 2017

And it's not an easy thing to explain either. But most people do it all the time, and research indicates that it is an important part of social communication. A few people don't do it at all, or don't do it well, and these people usually have trouble with social communication.

Cartoonist

(7,323 posts)
85. What is with your hang-up on motivation?
Fri Nov 17, 2017, 12:07 PM
Nov 2017

The woman's motivation was clear. She believes she possesses the truth, and without even asking me what I believe, she assumes I need salvation.

Finding me in a captive situation, she takes advantage of the moment to hand me something I find objectionable. This wasn't a case of Merry Christmas vs Happy Holidays, it was a blatant disrespect of my privacy and an imposition on my job. While not comparable to being burned at the stake, it is still an offense.

I guess this is something you will never understand as you are swaddled in the cloth of religious privilege.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
47. Words do have meaning M.
Thu Nov 16, 2017, 08:31 PM
Nov 2017

And these words from the post:

I threw the tract in the trash after crumpling it into a little ball. I'm sure the little old missionary had plenty more with which to insult others.

The words little old could be taken as age bias, and why would Cartoonist assume that her intent was to insult others? Or why would he assume that others would also be insulted?

EvilAL

(1,437 posts)
56. That's pretty funny.
Fri Nov 17, 2017, 05:27 AM
Nov 2017

Assuming facts and motivation not in evidence.

Do you think it is disrespectful to do something like that to somebody when they are at work when they can't say anything back to you?
I do. Most people would.

God is the ultimate authority of "assuming facts and motivation not in evidence."

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
53. Your premise is faulty
Thu Nov 16, 2017, 11:52 PM
Nov 2017

Attribution of motivation is irrelevant to respect. I can treat you with respect while privately questioning your motivation. You will never know the difference, nor should you care unless I tell you. Even if I do want to discuss your motivations, there are respectful and nonrespectful ways of doing it.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
100. And when I see such respectful discussion, I notice it and thank the responder.
Fri Nov 17, 2017, 05:55 PM
Nov 2017

But we see far too much mockery, and condescension, and utter lack of respect in this group. Interestingly enough, it is predominantly one side at DU that engages in it.

Response to guillaumeb (Reply #100)

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
109. My point is that, contrary to your OP, respect is not at all about attributing motives
Fri Nov 17, 2017, 11:30 PM
Nov 2017

But the person's behavior in the social context of the particular interaction.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
113. So is the action of offering a pamphlet in itself disrespectful?
Sat Nov 18, 2017, 01:22 PM
Nov 2017

And does that act imply intolerance for difference on the part of the initial actor?

Cartoonist

(7,323 posts)
114. yes and no
Sat Nov 18, 2017, 05:24 PM
Nov 2017

If you are standing on a street corner handing them out, I don't object. Sometimes the presenters can be a bit obnoxious. Ultimately, the answer is yes. It's that old refrain, do unto others. Would these same people appreciate it if they were met by pamphleteers of a different ideology?

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
117. So it was the venue, being in a place of business?
Sat Nov 18, 2017, 06:14 PM
Nov 2017

I cannot speak for the woman, but I know that some people feel that they must spread their beliefs. Perhaps you should get some pamphlets from the Ethical Humanist Society, or a similar organization, and hand them out in response.

Cartoonist

(7,323 posts)
118. definitely not
Sat Nov 18, 2017, 06:28 PM
Nov 2017

I would never go around pushing my beliefs. If someone wants to discuss issues, I am open to it, but not while I'm at work.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
120. I understand.
Sat Nov 18, 2017, 06:43 PM
Nov 2017

And I sympathize with your situation. I was a union representative in a Federal agency, the USPS, and I occasionally had to inform people that they could not leave religious and/or political literature in the office.

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
115. Yes, the action is disrespectful
Sat Nov 18, 2017, 05:24 PM
Nov 2017

Because the receiver is working and is not in a position to refuse. The receiver politely accepted it despite his own anger about being trapped in that situation.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
119. My primary issue was the expression by the poster that the lady intended to insult him.
Sat Nov 18, 2017, 06:37 PM
Nov 2017

And yes, the poster responded neutrally.

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
144. He did not say she had bad intent
Sun Nov 19, 2017, 01:09 PM
Nov 2017

He said evangelicals don't realize they are being disrespectful when they proselytize.

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
177. He said "felt insulted"
Sun Nov 19, 2017, 11:07 PM
Nov 2017

and specifically denied that evangelicals are aware of the insults they are making. There was no implication of an intent to insult.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
189. Cartoonist actually said:
Mon Nov 20, 2017, 04:21 PM
Nov 2017
I'm sure the little old missionary had plenty more with which to insult others.


Implying intent on the part of the lady.

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
193. Still does not imply intent
Mon Nov 20, 2017, 04:51 PM
Nov 2017

Last edited Mon Nov 20, 2017, 05:26 PM - Edit history (1)

If someone infers any intent you didn't explicitly state for any of your posts, you get rather indignant yourself, so don't do it others. Again not following the Golden Rule, one of the few verses in the Bible you say you take literally.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
197. Then feel free to explain exactly what you feel Cartoonist meant.
Mon Nov 20, 2017, 06:23 PM
Nov 2017

Keeping in the framework of the actual words Cartoonist used.

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
206. I think it is pretty clear
Mon Nov 20, 2017, 08:24 PM
Nov 2017

He felt insulted that this woman thought it was okay for her to give her tract to him while he was working. The problem is not intent. The problem is her lack of awareness.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
211. Well explained.
Mon Nov 20, 2017, 10:50 PM
Nov 2017

If accepting the pamphlet caused a work problem for Cartoonist that would be one thing. But there was no such indication.

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
212. Doesn't have to be an actual work problem
Mon Nov 20, 2017, 10:52 PM
Nov 2017

Even the potential for a problem should be avoided. Plus, unlike if you are walking on the street, he was in no position to refuse.

sprinkleeninow

(20,263 posts)
133. Happy Days of Holly and Brandy Soaked Eggnoggins!
Sat Nov 18, 2017, 10:08 PM
Nov 2017

Last edited Sun Nov 19, 2017, 02:48 AM - Edit history (1)

Hi Guillaume upthread.

I like him and hope he doesn't get cross with me admitting this.

A few decades ago, in CT, we had a home on an acre plus. Husband was on riding mower. Two witnessing people who rang door buzzard then proceeded around side of house were met by him, still riding, coming towards them, waving them off, don't come back here again.

I've been semi-polite to these people, but it's wasting time to engage them. They're programmed. They gave me a pamplet once and I 'filed' it.



Angry Dragon

(36,693 posts)
134. I am always willing to talk to them
Sun Nov 19, 2017, 12:26 AM
Nov 2017

I may learn something I may have missed
but I refuse to accept things that they spew as fact that they can not prove

sprinkleeninow

(20,263 posts)
149. They travel in pairs, males. With their white shirts, black slacks and black brief bags.
Sun Nov 19, 2017, 05:17 PM
Nov 2017

They come around Saturdays mostly. They have a smiley happy friendly demeanor before starting in on their spiel and handing you literature,
usually The Watchtower.
We've told them more than once to not come back to our residence because we have no interest and never will. Then they show up. Again. As it is said, what part of that do they not understand?!😣

Mariana

(14,861 posts)
154. I'm sure they understand you
Sun Nov 19, 2017, 06:23 PM
Nov 2017

but if they believe Jehovah wants them to knock on your door again, that's what they're gonna do.

You could call the police and have them done for trespassing, if particular individuals you've already warned off the property come back onto it. Even after that, they might return again, if their faith is strong enough.

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
160. I'm insulted, I haven't seen one in years
Sun Nov 19, 2017, 08:24 PM
Nov 2017

Have they decided I am beyond saving? Or did some of my nastier neighbors run them out of the neighborhood? Both could be true.

Lordquinton

(7,886 posts)
125. So are you defining this for everyone?
Sat Nov 18, 2017, 08:04 PM
Nov 2017

Or is this another "just my opinion" that you can't stand behind?

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
128. If you read the post, you will see that there is no link to an article.
Sat Nov 18, 2017, 08:27 PM
Nov 2017

A careful reader will also note the frequent use of the first person (I) in the post. Edited to add: (I is actually used 11 times)

So when you ask if I am defining this "for everyone", are you truly confused or does this mean this I will again be accused of attempting to define for everyone what is clearly my personal opinion?

Given that this is the first such question, one can assume that the other readers had no such confusion. So it seems that my wording presents no such issues for most readers.

Agreed?

Irish_Dem

(47,435 posts)
130. I trynot to assume ill intent where none was intended..... you have to go with the flow sometimes.
Sat Nov 18, 2017, 09:19 PM
Nov 2017

Unless you are showing me your body parts uninvited that is....

sprinkleeninow

(20,263 posts)
135. That's a charitable position to take.
Sun Nov 19, 2017, 02:23 AM
Nov 2017

I don't sense there is 'ill' intent whenever a 'religious' belief is being attempted to be shared with another.

However, the bad vibes conflict arises when the party being 'witnessed' to is strong in their 'belief'. It irks me personally to have others with minimal consideration really pushing literature, etc. your way even AFTER they are made aware that you have zero interest.

A former cross the breezeway neighbor and her entourage knew explicitly of my Faith and still stuck their gathering invites, literature and such in my door. I could've alerted the mgt. but we were soon to relocate and I let it go. 'Riding lawnmower husband' was more intolerant vocally. I did forego telling him of some stuff in door so I didn't have to hear HIM!

Irish_Dem

(47,435 posts)
141. I aree, most people sharing a religious belief are well intended, such as in "God Bless You and
Sun Nov 19, 2017, 10:45 AM
Nov 2017

Merry Christmas."

But I also agree, it is rude and insensitive for them to keep pushing their beliefs on others who are not interested or offended. Continuously passing literature is obnoxious.

I was raised Catholic but am non-practicing as an adult. I find if I tell these proselytizing protestant religious types that I am Catholic, they scurry away quickly never to return. Something about that is off-putting for them. You might try that if you are desperate.

I have my own spiritual belief system, and will talk about it if asked or in a religious discussion.
But other than that, would never push it on any one else. It is private.

Nitram

(22,890 posts)
142. Interesting observation that being Catholic scares them off. I'll use that next time.
Sun Nov 19, 2017, 12:05 PM
Nov 2017

If they are Christians, they are probably aware that the Catholic Church was there first. I wonder if some evangelicals buy into conspiracy theories about the Church being all-powerful. Like the way some people buy into conspiracy theories about Jewish domination of the entire world through banks and the media.

Irish_Dem

(47,435 posts)
143. I know it is weird.
Sun Nov 19, 2017, 12:23 PM
Nov 2017

Jehova Witness people who come to my door, when I tell them I am Catholic, they look at me, say nothing and hightail it off my porch. So now I use that line all the time when approached by any of these evangelical types.

I have no idea what the deal is, if they are afraid of Catholics, if we are the Devil's spawn or whatever.
Or if they are afraid I might try to convert them. Not sure.

Yes try it and see if it works for you, worth a try.

Mariana

(14,861 posts)
145. Some evangelicals do believe the Roman Catholic Church
Sun Nov 19, 2017, 01:26 PM
Nov 2017

is the Beast of the Revelation, or the Whore of Babylon, or just generally Satanic. It's understandable that Catholics are scary to people who believe stuff like that.

Irish_Dem

(47,435 posts)
155. Wow, I never knew. Gives me a certain power with this group.
Sun Nov 19, 2017, 07:02 PM
Nov 2017

I guess they are afraid I can put a whammy on 'em.

sprinkleeninow

(20,263 posts)
152. I wrote a post somewhere here why 'some'
Sun Nov 19, 2017, 06:00 PM
Nov 2017

have a colossal bird when one mentions Roman Catholicism. When an Orthodox Christian answers questions regarding their faith, we get the same reaction as would a Roman Catholic.

A coworker left my mom's funeral service early. He said he had an appointment, but also later remarked that it was like 'Catholic'. Nice going, huh. He's an industrial strength rr/rw.

Irish_Dem

(47,435 posts)
157. A friend of mine is Greek Orthodox and gets the same reaction.
Sun Nov 19, 2017, 07:08 PM
Nov 2017

The weddings are a bit unusual, and when she got married some of her co-workers didn't think the wedding
was standard enough to make it legal.

Irish_Dem

(47,435 posts)
170. In this Greek Orthodox wedding it was the same kind of thing.
Sun Nov 19, 2017, 10:38 PM
Nov 2017

And the bride and groom kept walking in a square formation.
For the Christian purists it was too much.
I thought it was lovely.

sprinkleeninow

(20,263 posts)
174. Thank you for the appreciation.
Sun Nov 19, 2017, 10:54 PM
Nov 2017

I married a Covenant Congregationalist who was not made to convert to our Faith in order for us to be married.

His family and attendees on his side of the church aisle were mesmerized throughout the entire ceremony.

My maternal grandmother wove our 'wedding crowns' of periwinkle vine like they did in her 'old country'.

I met my husband when he was a lifeguard at a beach club. A female guard on his team who sang in plays and performances soloed and sang responses with our choir. Husband's family minister donned a cassock and did a superb job chanting parts of the ceremony with our priest!

sprinkleeninow

(20,263 posts)
148. Roman Catholicism, Orthodox Christianity.
Sun Nov 19, 2017, 05:06 PM
Nov 2017

Last edited Sun Nov 19, 2017, 06:06 PM - Edit history (1)

The mention of these make 'some' either run away or start an unwelcomed discourse on how in error we are according to what their bible tells them.

They get this from their pulpits, TV preaching, written material.

'Priests' are a no-no. "Call no one Father", they quote.

As are: canonized/beatified Saints, iconography/sacred figures/statues, 'The Bearer of Christ-God In the Flesh'/'The Ever Blessed Virgin Mary'-"The Mother of God"--'Our Blessed Mother'-'Our Lady'-'The Ark of Our Salvation'. Not understanding that we do not 'worship' Her. We VENERATE Her because She said 'yes' and brought forth Christ. Additionally, much more that is anathema to them as heretical.

What about Beloved Saint Patrick?
Or Beloved Saint Nicholas?

Forgot to include that wonderful fragrant INCENSE that carries prayer to the heavens. They no like.

Irish_Dem

(47,435 posts)
158. These are the best parts of Catholicism in my book.
Sun Nov 19, 2017, 07:13 PM
Nov 2017

The Blessed Mother, my favorite prayer is "Hail Mary."
Beloved St Paddy, and of course my all time favorite St. Francis.
And his Peace Prayer which is the most wonderful prayer of all times.

Incense, candles, music. All wonderful.

What's not to like.

sprinkleeninow

(20,263 posts)
168. I attended a Catholic highschool several years altho' I'm not RC.
Sun Nov 19, 2017, 10:14 PM
Nov 2017

I still include the 'Memorare' in my prayers. Still have my St. Joseph Missal.

Orthodox too have Saints that intercede for various intentions. A dear friend raised Roman Rite said St. Anthony of Padua retrieves lost and misplaced items. And he has and does each time I ask. God is glorified in His Saints!

sprinkleeninow

(20,263 posts)
151. A God Bless You or a Merry Christmas could be understandably
Sun Nov 19, 2017, 05:50 PM
Nov 2017

tolerable. But strong proselytizing, yes, could become intolerable. Then one shows intolerance.

People going around in parking lots asking you "Are you saved?" There's a church/christian temple on every corner. I'm sure if one gets drawn to seek out what it offers, they'd be hard pressed to say they didn't know information was available all over the place.

Irish_Dem

(47,435 posts)
159. I have no idea what "being saved" really means.
Sun Nov 19, 2017, 07:15 PM
Nov 2017

I thought Christ died on the cross to "save us." Whatever that means.
But in that sense, we are all automatically saved from birth I thought, from original sin so the story goes.

sprinkleeninow

(20,263 posts)
169. He took on the human nature/experience. Becoming like us, He
Sun Nov 19, 2017, 10:29 PM
Nov 2017

would provide the ultimate 'saving' sacrifice. We 'hear' the love call and respond to it through the Spirit.

Yes, He came, stripping Himself of Glory, to redeem humankind from this world that is dying and will eventually go pffft.

We were 'saved', we are being 'saved', we 'will be saved' is what Orthodoxy encourages as the blessed hope.

The journey is "Theosis'.
Becoming 'like' God.
Not 'becoming' God.

sprinkleeninow

(20,263 posts)
176. I still receive revelation even after decades. There's much more
Sun Nov 19, 2017, 11:06 PM
Nov 2017

than I could contain in a lifetime.

We all do the best we can.

I'll keep you in my heart of hearts.
Whatever path you're on. 💖

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
195. Well I am definitely in the old category.
Mon Nov 20, 2017, 06:18 PM
Nov 2017

Being 66. As to wisdom, I am still hoping for Santa Claus to bring me some.

Lordquinton

(7,886 posts)
188. I must remember this thread
Mon Nov 20, 2017, 04:08 PM
Nov 2017

the next time "Evangelical atheists" are brought up.

See, the reactions you are getting haven't arisen in a vacuum. For years the post you made here has been the SOP, but when an atheist does the same thing it goes to defcom 5. This has been brought up before, but I figured that since there were some new faces in the group it would be good to bring it up again.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
196. Can you cite examples of this defcom 5?
Mon Nov 20, 2017, 06:20 PM
Nov 2017

Are you stating that there is a double standard here, because if you are so stating, I agree. But the intolerance that I see at DU is rather one sided.

Lordquinton

(7,886 posts)
203. It is one sided
Mon Nov 20, 2017, 07:11 PM
Nov 2017

You can take a stroll down memory lane with this thread

[link:https://www.democraticunderground.com/1218222565|] the intolerance towards atheist beliefs was on display in full form. (Note, I have screen shotted your replies there in case you attempt to delete them)

But I really don't have to go any further back than a couple of days, citing this thread and the one that inspired you to post this thread.

guillaumeb

(42,641 posts)
208. Like this?
Mon Nov 20, 2017, 10:37 PM
Nov 2017
Atheism is no more based on hard science than any emotions or ethics are. It is every bit as much a social invention as the religions it denies are. These New Atheists who insist on forcing non-belief on us are no different, and no better, than their religious forbears.


If you consider this to be intolerance, we differ on the definition. But please feel free to cite others and we can discuss them.

And the article in question was written by an atheist.
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