Respect for other beliefs

[Cartoonist]

That's something evangelists don't posses. That they don't see that in themselves is one of their great sins.

Yesterday at work, I was manning the cash register when a little old lady handed me a religious tract. I had seen her hand one to another customer on his way out. She called herself a missionary.

I always feel insulted when someone tells me I'm not worshipping their god. I don't make a big stink about it. I usually just tell them to get lost, but I decided to be more respectful than she, due to her age and frailty.

I threw the tract in the trash after crumpling it into a little ball. I'm sure the little old missionary had plenty more with which to insult others.

[samnsara]

1. i take their little booklet and then toss it...

...im not going to stand there and argue or profess my atheism. That little old lady may have nothing else in her life that gives her joy so I'm not going to be the one to crush her world.

I do draw a line at ppl coming to my front door however...and religion of any kind being taught in my grand kids public school.

[Cartoonist]

4. That was my dilemma

Or discomfort. I wasn't going to get argumentative with her. I also couldn't argue with any customer in that situation. I was trapped.

[CrispyQ]

5. My husband asks if they want to come in & have a hit of crack with him.

He's an old hippie with long hair. They never know if he's serious or not. They decline politely & leave.

One time, many, many years ago, JW came to our house. We were in the garage administering medication to a pet duck. She was squawking up a storm, you would have thought we were wringing her neck. They actually knocked on our garage door & announced themselves! We still laugh when we think of that.

[cilla4progress]

2. I like to tell them Im a

Pagan.

Better have a defibrillator on hand, though!

[trotsky]

3. It's always interesting to observe the double standard though.

As you say, "I don't make a big stink about it."

Because as non-believers, we can't. We would be viewed as rude, disrespectful, etc.

But yet if the roles were reversed and you had handed her a bunch of Richard Dawkins quotes or something, you would STILL be the rude and disrespectful one - even if she got upset and cursed you out.

Behold the power of religious privilege.

[Iggo]

6. That's respect for an old lady. We've all got that.

I have zero respect for her beliefs.

I have a ton of respect for her right to have those beliefs.

I have a ton of respect for people who've gotten old and aren't nasty.

So, two out of three ain't bad.

[Mariana]

7. What kind of workplace is it?

Doesn't your employer prohibit soliciting by parties who don't work there?

[guillaumeb]

8. "I threw the tract in the trash after crumpling it into a little ball"

Your own words. And you go on to say:

"I usually just tell them to get lost....."

And you finished with:

"I'm sure the little old missionary had plenty more with which to insult others."

So you complain about disrespect as you insult the older woman and treat her message with extreme disrespect.

Irony to the 3rd power in that you complain about what you yourself do.

Before you remove the speck from your neighbor's eye, remove the beam from your own.

[Cartoonist]

9. excuse me

I let her leave with a smile on my face. I did not insult her. She insulted me. You don't get it .

[guillaumeb]

10. You clearly do not understand what you wrote, and how it can be used

to prove what I wrote in response. And that apparent utter inability to understand what you did and what it means illustrates something else.

Your smile was meaningless.

[SCantiGOP]

14. No, you are reading this completely wrong

What ending would have satisfied you? What should he/she have done in the face of obnoxious and unwanted proselytizing?

On edit: never mind. I don't care to engage with someone who has a direct quote from god in their signature. I refrain from a battle of wits if my opponent is unarmed.

[trotsky]

19. The answer is simple.

Religious privilege means that any religious person can proselytize anywhere and anytime they want, and the person being accosted (PARTICULARLY if they are an atheist!) needs to be gracious and kind and appreciative and must not, under ANY circumstances, express even the slightest disrespectful utterance about religion EVER.

Addendum: Not even well AFTER the encounter, anonymously, on the Internet!

[Mariana]

22. Intolerance! Intolerance!

[guillaumeb]

24. Another example of non-thisitic intolerance?

Well done.

[Merlot]

51. The poster disrespected her beliefs, not her.

She disrespected common courtesy which states that you don't walk around in a public place of business handing out flyers or tracts. She was very disrespectful but got away with it due to her age and religious privilege.

I may start handing out free-thinker, secular, separation of church and state flyers. Lets see how that goes...

[guillaumeb]

54. The poster imputed motivation with zero evidence.

It is that basic.

[trotsky]

13. Ta da!

My point in post #4 is proven, right on cue.

Edit: #3, actually, as a helpful individual pointed out to me!

[Lordquinton]

16. Excuse me

You posted that is post #3. You are clearly attempting to reframe the argument to suit your agenda.

[trotsky]

17. Oops! Followed the wrong line over.

You are right, that completely negates my point and I am vanquished. Alas.

[yallerdawg]

11. "Pretend" to have respect for other peoples's beliefs.

That's the message.

[guillaumeb]

12. Oh yes.

Paste on a smile and make sure to crumple the tract and throw it in the trash to impress the co-workers. An impressive display of something, but certainly not tolerance.

[Cartoonist]

15. were you there?

I didn't crumple the insult until she left. No one saw my act of destruction.

[guillaumeb]

25. We all can read what you feel,

and some of us can see the clear intolerance and condescension in the account. How nice that you smiled before crumpling up the paper.

[Voltaire2]

40. So instead you would prefer that Cartoonist had expressed his actual feelings about

having religion thrust into his face directly to the person doing the proselytizing?

[guillaumeb]

44. Religion thrust into his face?

Nice reframing.

[Cartoonist]

46. That's about it

I had to lean down to hear her. Our faces were less than a foot apart when she put the tract forward under my chin.

[guillaumeb]

48. The horror.

The absolute horror.

[Mariana]

21. Please, Gil, post that glossary soon.

By the normal, commonly used definition of the word "tolerance" in this context, Cartoonist did indeed display it. But who knows what random meaning you've assigned to that word? Please be a big help and let us know.

[Mariana]

20. Message for whom? Cartoonist did exactly that.

He pretended to respect the woman's beliefs. The woman did not pretend to respect his.

[guillaumeb]

26. So you have some special knowledge

of the woman, and her beliefs? How fascinating.

[Mariana]

28. Read the OP, Gil.

You wouldn't be implying that Cartoonist is lying about what happened, would you?

[guillaumeb]

29. I believe that Cartoonist wrote exactly what happened,

and how Cartoonist felt. And the intolerance and condescension are quite evident, as is the assumption of what the lady meant.

[Cartoonist]

38. What is evident

100% Tolerance rating: I said nothing to the lady, took her money unquestioningly, and didn't call the cops.

Condescension? To whom? You?

[guillaumeb]

42. Then why the misleading title?

What was your motivation?

[Cartoonist]

45. Respect

How is it respectful of another's beliefs to put religious nut-jobbery into their hands when he's trying to do his job? Had there been another customer in line, they would have had to wait while I disposed of the trash. Thanks for nothing.

[guillaumeb]

30. Not the question I asked.

Why no response to the actual question?

[Mariana]

31. The question you asked is irrelevant. That's why.

It's also dishonest, because you already know the answer. It's not a real question, it's an attempt to make a point.

The woman's behavior indicates her lack of respect for Cartoonist's beliefs and for the beliefs of the other customer. Proselytisation is extremely common among religious people who think their particular religious beliefs are superior to those of others, or to no religious belief at all. There's no need for any special knowledge, fascinating or otherwise.

[guillaumeb]

32. I understand. You determine what is relevant.

Congratulations on being elected the official determiner of what is relevant. And when non-theists ask why I do not answer questions, some that are asked repeatedly, I shall refer them to the official determiner's answer.

[Mariana]

39. That's right, Gil.

Just like you are the official definer of words, and to heck with the dictionary. We all have our crosses to bear (so to speak).

Are you sure you really believe in that one line by Christ? Because, you know, you really don't follow it on this board. It's not unexpected, but it is kind of sad to see how flimsy faith really is, and how little provocation (real or imagined) it can take before it fails.

[guillaumeb]

43. Another debate with a strawman?

Well done.

[marylandblue]

58. This is respect for another's beliefs?

Don't tell me what others do. Is another person's real or imagined bad behavior an excuse for your own?

[guillaumeb]

59. My response was recognition of a tactic.

And a refusal to play the game.

[marylandblue]

60. It's more of a deflection from her real point

And I see others refusing to play your games as well. Everything in this group seems to turn into a meta-duscussion about tactics and intent, rather than actual issues raised.

[Lordquinton]

18. Visual representation of this post

[guillaumeb]

27. Of the original post, yes indeed.

[Lordquinton]

33. No, of yours

Pretty much every post you make, including the one I'm replying to.

[pangaia]

55. :)))))

[MineralMan]

34. Like most people, I am bombarded daily with

Information with which I disagree. I discard it. Depending on its medium, I do that in different ways. If someone hands me a religious tract, I toss it in a wastebasket. If it's an email, I delete it or Mark it as spam, so I'll see less of it.

That is not intolerance. It is making choices about how I will spend my time.

[guillaumeb]

41. Then why post about it in the first place?

Except to make a point about what the poster frames as the motivation of the lady.

[Cartoonist]

47. Motivation

The motivation of the lady is the same motivation as all evangelists.

1. My religion is superior
2. The world needs my religion

The lady adds a couple of her own

3. I'm not even going to ask you what you believe, here's what you need to know.
4. I'm doing God's work, so respect me.
5. Goodbye. I don't care what you think, so I'm not asking.

[guillaumeb]

49. Your framing and attempt at constructing a straw "old lady" is noted.

[trotsky]

50. OK, g, here's your chance.

Tell us what YOU think the woman's motivation was.

Why did she proselytize? Why did she walk away and not ask Cartoonist what he thought?

Please explain her behavior. Show Cartoonist how his assumptions might be wrong. Let's have a dialog.

Go.

[guillaumeb]

53. You are asking me to do what Cartoonist and others here have done.

So no, I will not guess as to her motivation. Perhaps if Cartoonist had asked she might have responded.

[Cartoonist]

56. A dialogue?

The lady never asked me a single question. She had no interest in what I thought. Like ALL evangelists they believe they are right and everyone else is going to hell. That's why she thinks she"s God's missionary out to save people's soul.

Perhaps you think her motivation was just being playful and that she didn't believe the crap she was handing out. Really, what could her motivation have been if not exactly as I described. I can't think of anything else that would prompt someone to do what she did.

[guillaumeb]

57. Again, in the absence of any dialogue,

you decided for yourself what her motivation was.

She handed you a pamphlet. I will accept that as a fact.

But then you immediately assume that "She had no interest in what I thought". Why do you make that assumption?

You then proceeded to invent positions that you assume she must hold. Again, why do you judge in the total absence of any evidence?

So yes, in the absence of any dialogue, it seems to me that you proceeded to judge her. The very thing that you accuse evangelicals of doing.

[trotsky]

61. I'm not asking you to precisely state her actual motivation.

I'm asking you to propose ANY kind of motivation that wouldn't be what Cartoonist said.

You screamed "RELIGIOUS INTOLERANCE" at Cartoonist because he said the woman (who self-identified as a missionary) was promoting her religion because she thinks it is superior to all others.

OK, g, go ahead and tell us how Cartoonist COULD have been wrong. What other motivation could she have had?

I bet you'll cop out again though, because you know Cartoonist was correct.

[guillaumeb]

62. You asked:

Tell us what YOU think the woman's motivation was.

Why did she proselytize? Why did she walk away and not ask Cartoonist what he thought?

Please explain her behavior. Show Cartoonist how his assumptions might be wrong. Let's have a dialog.

Go.

Cartoonist implied that she was insulting others. Cartoonist's words. I stated that Cartoonist was framing in the absence of any actual evidence of motivation.

And again, I cannot answer for the woman, but I have met many who come to my door to talk of their faith. I assume no motivation other than the obvious one that they are motivated to preach their faith.

[trotsky]

63. "I assume no motivation other than the obvious one that they are motivated to preach their faith."

So in other words, they're motivated because they're motivated.

That's your answer? Seriously? LOL!!!

WHAT MOTIVATES THEM TO PREACH THEIR FAITH? Cartoonist is right, and you know it. The only thing that motivates someone to "preach their faith" is that they believe it is superior to whatever else someone might believe.

You've painted yourself in a corner yet again and are hoping no one notices. Too late, g. Welcome to Humiliation City. Population: you.

[guillaumeb]

64. Again, back to your typical replies.

Perhaps the choir believes you, but from the tone of more than a few of the replies to you from others here, that choir should not be taken as illustrative of DU.

[trotsky]

65. Yep, you've got nothing.

I knew it. You just wanted to bash Cartoonist. How Christian of you.

[guillaumeb]

66. Keep framing your argument.

And listening to the choir.

[trotsky]

67. Keep responding with meaningless memes and attacks.

The fact that you refuse to explain anything reveals the truth. I have asked you multiple times. You could have EASILY shut me up with a simple explanation. But you know you don't have one. And so does everyone else.

[guillaumeb]

68. You forgot to reference my humiliating loss and subsequent retreat.

So I filled it in for you.

Please, do not thank me.

[trotsky]

69. I just wish you'd TRY to respond.

Seems like you can't defend anything you say. That's what must be really humiliating. I'm sorry for you.

[guillaumeb]

70. I am still attempting to climb from the deep pit of humilaition and defeat at

the hands of the choir. It is a very deep pit and I despair of ever removing myself from it.

[EvilAL]

23. mitch hedberg

[MsBeckee75]

35. I am a server...

And this stuff happens all the time to us. We often get our tips stuffed into little booklets. Some full of offensive info about how we are going to feel the flames of hell if we don't join their cult. Others aren't all brimstone and hellfire, but get the point across that I am less than them if I don't believe as they do. The fact they put the tip in the booklet bothers me, because it's as if they are saying, "want that tip you just worked so hard for? Well you have to also read my religious views to get that tip."

It knots my stomach up every time. I want to chase them down in the parking lot.some days and give them a piece if my atheist mind. But I don't, because I'd lose my job.

And yes, I guilt myself constantly for not speaking up for my beliefs.

[Lordquinton]

37. We gotta survive in this capitalist society

And those who take advantage of service industry workers are literally the scum of the earth.

[Merlot]

52. Just say "bless your heart" when someone hands you one of those booklets

[Lordquinton]

36. The other day is was sleep walking to class

And someone stopped me to talk about some study group they were starting. I kinda mumbled I was too busy. As we parted my brain finally processed and realized he hadn't said "bio-study" but "bible-study"

I regret not saying I was a member of the secular student alliance and asking if he was interested in coming to a meeting.