Welcome news: Good without God? More Americans say amen to that

[guillaumeb]

From the article:

For the first time, a majority of Americans — 56 percent — say it is possible to be a good person without a religious belief.

Welcome news in the age of Trump that tolerance is alive and well.

To read more:

http://religionnews.com/2017/10/17/good-without-god-more-americans-say-amen-to-that/

[True Dough]

1. Of course!

Why in the hell, pardon the expression, would a person have to be religious to be a "good person." Hell (there I go again), many people with religious beliefs often look down upon people of divergent religious beliefs, as if those beliefs don't measure up. How "good" is that?

Anyway, the bottom line for me is that it's more important how these people act than what they say about being a good person.

[guillaumeb]

4. I totally agree.

The key to being a good person is to play nicely with others.

[LakeArenal]

2. I would say a better person without belief....

My boss asked me how can I have a "moral compass" without belief...

I said I didn't need a book to tell me right or wrong. That there were words for good and evil long before Jesus.

I have a friend who likes to tell people she's a better person than I. I always say if you have to tell people that, I don't think that makes you a better person at all...

[bdtrppr6]

3. yup kinda like

saying how high your IQ is. if you gotta say how good you are or how smart you are, you are neither.

[guillaumeb]

5. So when Trump brags of his huge IQ,

we can safely assume something, but not that he has even a normal IQ.

[LakeArenal]

11. As I heard before on DU

He can’t even spell IQ.

[guillaumeb]

12. Perhaps if you helped him by providing just the first 2 letters. eom

[Blindingly apparent]

14. You and LakeArenal make a good comedy team

If you ever come to Kentucky on your comedy tour, I’ll buy tickets for it

[brewens]

58. Had a conversation with a buddy about this. He said, well why wouldn't I just go out and

rape or kill, if I didn't believe? Therein lies the problem. People like him probably never learned right from wrong by example from good parents. Maybe some other important example in their life.

It's like people like him have to be brainwashed or threatened to behave well. I don't want to do anything mean, because of the effect it has on a victim, or anyone else that may find out and hate me for it. Some need to be God fearing I guess, not me.

[Binkie The Clown]

6. Two things:

1. If I could wave as magic wand and cure all cancer, I would. That makes me morally superior to "god".

2. No matter how pissed off I was, I would not destroy every living thing on the planet, sparing only one guy and his family and his animal collection. That makes me morally superior to "god".

If you ask me, religious people who are good, are good in spite of god, not because of god.

[guillaumeb]

9. People have free will.

So much for the argument.

[Voltaire2]

13. there is not a lot of evidence that people have free will.

In fact the evidence appears to be quite the opposite, that we make decisions unconsciously and then rationalize the decisions we have made as if they were conscious choices.

[Binkie The Clown]

15. God has free will and chooses to kill people with cancer and hurricanes and etc., etc.

Look at a child dying of cancer and tell me god is good.

[guillaumeb]

17. By that same logic, because death exists the universe itself is evil.

So evil is excusable and the default condition.

[Binkie The Clown]

19. Are you personifying "The Universe"?

How crazy is that?

So If a kid step on a rusty nail and gets tetanus, is the nail evil? Seriously? You would ask such a ridiculous question?

Good and evil are judgements made by conscious moral beings. The universe is neither of those. And neither is the nail.

[guillaumeb]

21. No, speaking to the "logic" of claiming that because bad things happen, that "proves"

that God is evil.

[Binkie The Clown]

24. The only thing I'm concluding is...

that

A) If god exists,
B) And if god is all powerful,
C) And if god does not use his infinite power for good ends,

Then:

D) Since if I had infinite power, I would use that power to help people because I consider myself to be morally good,

Then:

D) God does not meet my most basic definition of "morally good".

And for the record, I don't think god is evil. I think that, for the same reason I think unicorns do not poop rainbow ice cream. I don't make value judgements about imaginary creatures, except in the context of imaginary alternate worlds. In other words, yes, I think Frodo Baggins is a good Hobbit, in the imaginary context of the imaginary world of Middle Earth, but no, I don't think Frodo Baggins is a good Hobbit in the context of actual reality.

So, yes, the god of the Old Testament Bible is most definitely evil, in the context of the imaginary world of Old Testament cosmology, but no, I do not think god is evil in the context of actual reality.

[IamFortunesFool]

27. Spot on

Thread winner

[Voltaire2]

30. Well you really need to define what you think your god is.

[trotsky]

41. Good luck with that.

He has refused to ever do such a thing.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

28. Kind of like Epicurus' paradox:

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.

Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.

Is he both able and willing? Then why is there evil?

Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

[AtheistCrusader]

7. Why, do you suppose, did a majority if religious people feel differently so recently?

Also, I'm curious if you feel 'strident' atheists like the 'new' atheists, or the four horsemen of the counter-apocalypse such as Dawkins and Dennett helped or hurt the recent movement of acceptance of atheists/agnostics/nones?

[trotsky]

8. Right, the "New Atheist" phenomenon is relatively recent.

(Though we've had some pretty notable heretics in the past, too!)

But one of the frequent laments we hear from believers and "faitheists" is that the evil New Atheists are doing more harm than good. The fact that atheists are becoming more socially accepted (and common) than we've ever seen in history would seem to be evidence against such a claim.

[guillaumeb]

22. Another claim?

This specifically:

But one of the frequent laments we hear from believers and "faitheists" is that the evil New Atheists are doing more harm than good.

Where specifically is this frequent lament heard?

[trotsky]

31. You have earned nothing but my contempt.

I shall never again grant even the most basic request of yours.

You have demonstrated fully how committed you are to deceit and double standards.

You are not worth my time.

[guillaumeb]

33. So your claim is simply another of your unsupported allegations?

Fine. Now speak of double standards.

[trotsky]

34. You would know all about unsupported allegations, considering that's the only kind you make.

There's my talk about double standards. Hope you enjoyed it.

[guillaumeb]

35. Your allegations are mounting.

I will try to research about the posts you claim exist wherein theists literally call atheists demons.

As well as this newest claim. And one hopes that you will do likewise.

If these posts exist, I will gladly join you in denouncing any DU theists making such accusations.

[trotsky]

36. Again with the falsehoods.

I will try to research about the posts you claim exist wherein theists literally call atheists demons.

I did not make that claim, and I pointed that out to you. You are continuing to repeat a LIE. I proved what I actually *did* claim, and you shifted the goalposts to a straw man claim that I didn't make.
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1218&pid=256586

As well as this newest claim.

That you make unsupported allegations, like this one?
guillaumeb: "I have read posts here talking about the end of theism."
One of your many, many claims that remains wholly unsupported.

I will let the readers of this group judge who is being truthful and accurate.

[guillaumeb]

37. Falsehoods:

https://upload.democraticunderground.com/1218142514#post7

If you read post number 7, your own post to another at DU, you will read your earlier claim that atheists have been literally called demons at DU.

There are only 2 possible conclusions that I can see:

1) You did not read this link when I posted it earlier, or

2) Someone hijacked your account.

So yes, any who are interested can indeed judge, but they can also click on the link and read your actual words. Please, stop digging the hole.

[trotsky]

40. I welcome them to read my ACTUAL words.

And not the words you have dishonestly inserted.

Please, KEEP digging this hole so you further humiliate and discredit yourself in the eyes of this group.

[guillaumeb]

43. So you are calling my link a lie?

And me a liar?

Amazing. Simply amazing.

[trotsky]

47. Your link is valid, it goes to a post of mine.

But it does not claim what YOU said it claims.

Smart people can figure things out from there.

[guillaumeb]

49. Yes, they can.

And you just claimed that I lied about what you said, and now, you admit that you said it.

[trotsky]

54. Said what, exactly?

That THEISTS called atheists demons?

I'd readily admit to it - if I had actually said that.

You lose. Again. I'd think you would be ashamed and run away at this point, but evidently you enjoy the sound of everyone laughing at you.

[guillaumeb]

56. Another amazing victory for t.

[trotsky]

57. Yep!

You gonna back up your claim now? You could score your very first victory by linking to a post that supports your claim!

[guillaumeb]

38. In addition, here is the actual post:

trotsky (44,458 posts)
7. This is greatly appreciated.

Especially by many of us who have literally been called "demons" because of our more vocal approach to criticizing religion.

Good luck.

[trotsky]

39. Yes, I agree that is the post.

Could you please highlight the word "theist" where I used it to make the specific claim that you are saying I did?

I will wait.

[guillaumeb]

42. If that is your best answer............

But playing along, who exactly would call an atheist a demon?

[Cuthbert Allgood]

44. ....

[guillaumeb]

45. Clearly.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

46. ....

[trotsky]

48. Back up your claim.

You said that I claimed "theists" called atheists demons.

We can play this game all day, even though you've already lost. Every further post just increases your humiliation and dishonor.

I'm lovin' it.

[guillaumeb]

50. Yes, your style is amazing.

[guillaumeb]

10. I have no idea.

I feel tolerance is preferable to intolerance, and I feel that intolerant and dismissive behavior on either side is counterproductive if the goal is mutual respect.

[Binkie The Clown]

16. Speaking of mutual respect, do you respect Donald Trump?

If so, why?
If not, don't talk to me about mutual respect.

[guillaumeb]

18. I respect his right to live,

and that is about all that I respect concerning Trump.

[Binkie The Clown]

20. That's a pretty weak version of "respect".

You are saying there is nothing about him that you respect. There is nothing about religion that I respect, but I respect its right to exist. How do you call that "mutual respect?" Is that enough mutual respect to satisfy your call for mutual respect?

[guillaumeb]

23. I respect his right to his beliefs,

and hope that he respects mine.

[Binkie The Clown]

25. But he doesn't respect anything about you.

So it's not mutual respect anyway.

[guillaumeb]

32. True, but respect is a positive behavior.

Perhaps he will change.

[HopeAgain]

26. I have a faith

That has saved my butt and made me a better person. My faith doesn't care who believes what, it doesn't judge what makes a another person good or bad. It merely helps me face with love, gratitude and humility this mystery called life. Finally, it makes me hope everyone finds peace and serenity, however they can.

I believe I can have a Higher Power in my life without religion, so I'm not sure where that puts me, but I suspect there are more like me.

[guillaumeb]

51. Agreed. Theer are people who have religious belief,

but who do not belong to any formal church.

[Act_of_Reparation]

29. So, only slightly less than half of the people I run into on a daily basis think I'm amoral?

I feel better already.

[guillaumeb]

53. Can you tell which ones they are?

WARNING: ATTEMPT AT HUMOR FOLLOWS

If they wave a cross and sprinkle you with water, they are probably in that less than half group.

Note: The above was intended as a humorous remark.

[BlueJac]

52. very true!

[Turbineguy]

55. God needs to do something about

the scam artists who say they do his work.

[guillaumeb]

59. The Creator observes a non-interference policy.