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DetlefK

(16,423 posts)
Wed Apr 19, 2017, 07:26 AM Apr 2017

Evidence for historical Jesus is very weak:

http://www.rawstory.com/2017/04/evidence-for-jesus-is-weaker-than-you-might-think/

Before the European Enlightenment, virtually all New Testament experts assumed that handed-down stories about Jesus were first recorded by eye witnesses and were largely biographical. That is no longer the case.

...

None of the four gospels claims to be written by eyewitnesses, and all were originally anonymous. Only later were they attributed to men named in the stories themselves.

While the four gospels were traditionally held to be four independent accounts, textual analysis suggests that they all actually are adaptations of the earliest gospel, Mark. Each has been edited and expanded upon, repeatedly, by unknown editors. It is worth noting that Mark features the most fallible, human, no-frills Jesus—and, more importantly, may be an allegory.

All of the gospels contain anachronisms and errors that show they were written long after the events they describe, and most likely far from the setting of their stories. Even more troubling, they don’t just have minor nitpicky contradictions; they have basic, even crucial, contradictions.

...

Despite generations of apologists insisting Jesus is vouched for by plenty of historical sources like Tacitus or Suetonius, none of these hold up to close inspection. The most commonly-cited of these is the Testimonium Flavianum... Today historians overwhelmingly recognize this odd Jesus passage is a forgery. (For one reason, no one but the suspected forger ever quotes it – for 500 years!) But Christian apologists are loathe to give it up, and supporters now argue it is only a partial forgery.

...

As historian Robert M. Price notes, just as Superman comics spun off into stories of young Superboy in Smallville, Christians wrote stories of young Jesus in Nazareth using his divine powers to bring clay birds to life or peevishly strike his playmates dead.
...
Some of our familiar New Testament epistles like 1 Peter, 2 Peter and Jude were rejected as forgeries even in ancient times; today scholars identify almost all of the New Testament books as forgeries except for six attributed to Paul (and even his authentic letters have been re-edited).

...

Generations of Christian apologists have pointed to the existence of Christian martyrs as proof their religion is true, asking “Who would die for a lie?” The short answer, of course.

...

Best-selling New Testament scholar Bart Ehrman believes that the biblical stories about Jesus had their kernel in the person of a single itinerant preacher, as do most New Testament scholars. Historian Richard Carrier and David Fitzgerald (co-author of this article) take an opposing position—that the original kernel was a set of ancient mythic tropes to which unsuspecting believers added historical details.





----------

I have to say, the lack of surviving evidence does not surprise me in the least, given the long time-span and the cultural context.

For example:
The Roman Empire had a bureaucratic, orderly, cold-blooded culture. There are loads of political, philosophical and educational texts preserved from those ancient times. But very, very little is known about everyday-life in Ancient Rome.


* Archeologists have found a detailed list of the regular supplies a roman legion needed to stay operational. But they don't know what those supplies were actually used for and, for example, WHY roman legionaires needed ox-sinew.

* Gladiator-fights were a huge spectacle, with professional fighters, with many different fighting-styles, with main-events that attracted huge audiences... with advertisements and action-figures... But nobody bothered to write all this down. Very much is still unknown, for example the names and fighting-styles of several types of gladiators. Or whether female gladiators were something ordinary or extraordinary.
46 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Evidence for historical Jesus is very weak: (Original Post) DetlefK Apr 2017 OP
I think it's a particularly American obsession lies Apr 2017 #1
The point is that people in positions of power justify the laws they want... trotsky Apr 2017 #5
Well... lies Apr 2017 #7
One thing at a time Orrex Apr 2017 #12
But religion is special. trotsky Apr 2017 #15
We'll agree to disagree. lies Apr 2017 #16
I don't. trotsky Apr 2017 #17
That's not how this works lies Apr 2017 #18
Sorry you don't even want to try to support your position. trotsky Apr 2017 #23
Again you've misunderstood. lies Apr 2017 #25
I disagree. Act_of_Reparation Apr 2017 #29
Again I'm sorry you won't even try to support your position. trotsky Apr 2017 #30
Boy did I get into a BIG argument over this bitterross Apr 2017 #2
Valerie Tarico is a psychologistand former evangelical, now atheist. rug Apr 2017 #3
I don't follow your criticism PJMcK Apr 2017 #4
It's called 'shooting the messenger'. AtheistCrusader Apr 2017 #10
Careful, or he'll wave the TOS in your face Orrex Apr 2017 #13
Tsk, better take a look at those bruises, Orrex. rug Apr 2017 #21
I will never shoot the person who carries the trash. rug Apr 2017 #20
It's a rehash because there is nothing original in the article. rug Apr 2017 #19
Logical fallacy padfun Apr 2017 #6
Biblical Contradictions: Not just for the Canonical Gospels... NeoGreen Apr 2017 #8
That's what happens if your anthology has too many authors and no editor. DetlefK Apr 2017 #9
I understand I can not prove the existence of Jesus or God, and I understand the skepticism. hrmjustin Apr 2017 #11
Randle Helms penned an interesting book called "Gospel Fictions" Orrex Apr 2017 #14
Tired old "revelation" okasha Apr 2017 #22
What's tired is the total lack of coherent response from those who believe in the myth. trotsky Apr 2017 #24
That's about persuasive as David Fitzgerald's trilogy. rug Apr 2017 #37
That's exactly what this thread is about Lordquinton Apr 2017 #31
Well MFM008 Apr 2017 #26
That begs the question: If it cannot be proven, can it exist? DetlefK Apr 2017 #27
If a tree falls in the forest MFM008 Apr 2017 #32
But I can see that tree falling. God cannot be heard or seen or felt or smelt... DetlefK Apr 2017 #35
But those are Gods MFM008 Apr 2017 #36
That post was entirely nonsensical. DetlefK Apr 2017 #40
Trees exist Lordquinton Apr 2017 #38
We are not talking about trees in general. We are talking about a specific tree. DetlefK Apr 2017 #41
Absurd. Act_of_Reparation Apr 2017 #42
Exactly. It's about not knowing what happened in one specific case. DetlefK Apr 2017 #43
My point is that it isn't unreasonable to dismiss people claiming the exception. Act_of_Reparation Apr 2017 #44
If you are talking about a specific tree Lordquinton Apr 2017 #46
Side view PsychoBabble Apr 2017 #28
Why do you need a book to on "how to live"? Fix The Stupid Apr 2017 #33
Let us follow the long-worn ruts! struggle4progress Apr 2017 #34
Glad you see the inherent problems with the Jesus myth Lordquinton Apr 2017 #39
By "adaptation" the writer shouldn't mean "made up by the writer." Igel Apr 2017 #45
 

lies

(315 posts)
1. I think it's a particularly American obsession
Wed Apr 19, 2017, 07:33 AM
Apr 2017

to try and prove religion wish history or science.

What's the point?

Anyway, yes, historical evidence is weak, but it's seen as strong by many American evangelicals... but that's like shooting fish in a barrell.

If you don't have faith there's no point in looking for justification for religious beliefs in science or history. And if you DO have faith, there's no point in looking for justification for religious beliefs in science or history. IMO.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
5. The point is that people in positions of power justify the laws they want...
Wed Apr 19, 2017, 09:26 AM
Apr 2017

by appealing to the will of the god they believe in.

If religion were truly just a personal experience with no effects on anyone apart from the individual believer, I'd agree with you, what's the point?

But religion is far more than that, and it impacts billions of lives directly.

 

lies

(315 posts)
7. Well...
Wed Apr 19, 2017, 09:55 AM
Apr 2017

The even larger truth is that those same people would use something else - America is controlled with fear and nationalism as much as with religion - if religion were not available.

Orrex

(63,220 posts)
12. One thing at a time
Wed Apr 19, 2017, 12:28 PM
Apr 2017

Whatever they might use if religion weren't available, they are using religion right now, and they're inflicting incredible damage with their policies.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
17. I don't.
Wed Apr 19, 2017, 01:00 PM
Apr 2017

I presented an article explaining why religion is unique. You countered it with exactly nothing. As it stands right now, I've made my case, and you haven't even tried.

 

lies

(315 posts)
18. That's not how this works
Wed Apr 19, 2017, 01:33 PM
Apr 2017

It's not an argument where there can be a winner based on facts.

I don't agree with your premise, your article was unconvincing, I don't think you'll change your mind, so...

I disagree with you. You disagree with me.

We'll agree to disagree.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
23. Sorry you don't even want to try to support your position.
Thu Apr 20, 2017, 09:06 AM
Apr 2017

If you could, perhaps I'd agree to disagree. But you won't, so I don't.

 

lies

(315 posts)
25. Again you've misunderstood.
Thu Apr 20, 2017, 10:42 AM
Apr 2017

Your options are:

- agree
- disagree
- have no opinion

You've already made it clear you disagree.

I've made it clear I disagree with you.

We're in disagreement.

There's no other option.

And frankly, your blog post was wildly unconvincing. If that's what passes for 'convincing' in your world why waste my time?

And in fact this post is the end of my wasting my time with you.

We disagree. That's it. I don't need your permission to disagree and you disagree with me. So. It's done. Move on.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
30. Again I'm sorry you won't even try to support your position.
Thu Apr 20, 2017, 11:44 AM
Apr 2017

You must not be too confident in it, I guess.

I apologize for "wasting your time," although it was your choice whether to respond at all. I didn't force you to do a thing.

Take care!

 

bitterross

(4,066 posts)
2. Boy did I get into a BIG argument over this
Wed Apr 19, 2017, 07:46 AM
Apr 2017

I once made the off-hand comment that there was really no actual proof of a historical Jesus to a person I thought was a Catholic who had really abandoned his Catholic roots. But some things die hard no matter how you feel about the Church.

He went off insisting that I had to prove to him that no Jesus existed. Of course I informed him the burden of proof was actually on him to prove Jesus did exist. Not for me to prove a negative. He didn't like that. Perhaps because I was already in possession of the knowledge stated in this article and used it to great effect with him. For every traditional argument he made for the existence of Jesus I had a counter. He had no counter arguments at all because all he had was traditional teaching on the subject. That is to say completely uncritical acceptance of a story that really has no better credibility than any other religious tradition and ideology.

 

rug

(82,333 posts)
3. Valerie Tarico is a psychologistand former evangelical, now atheist.
Wed Apr 19, 2017, 08:00 AM
Apr 2017

She's been pursuing this new career for some time now and has no training in history. This article is Raw Story clickbait and a rehash.

https://valerietarico.com/about/

David Fitgerald is a self-published internet scholar with no sense of typography. I don't know why he's credited at the end of this article unless it's to prevent a plagiarism lawsuit.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Fitzgerald_(author)





PJMcK

(22,045 posts)
4. I don't follow your criticism
Wed Apr 19, 2017, 08:50 AM
Apr 2017

Sorry, rug, but I don't understand your opinion that "this article is Raw Story clickbait and a rehash."

Your link to information about the article's author, Valerie Tarico, took me to a page with her professional biography. She appears to have had a modestly successful career. Nothing in the bio suggested that she was involved in any controversy. Likewise, the link to David Fitzgerald's Wikipedia page shows another modestly successful professional. Is there evidence or accusation of fraud, plagiarism or other malfeasance in their work? Your dismissal suggests that you don't hold them in high regard.

The Raw Story article presents some important facts about the history of the Bible. These issues are critically important to understanding what the Bible is and isn't. They are timeless.

My own view is that the history of the Bible is so fraught with translations, interpretations and editorial changes that it cannot withstand intellectual rigor. Accordingly, any story about this issue needs to be repeated. And while Raw Story is a bit sensationalist, it's the links on their pages that represent the true clickbait.

By the way, it's funny to me that Mr. Fitzgerald's earlier book is titled, "Nailed."

Please explain the disdain that you expressed. Thanks, in advance.

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
10. It's called 'shooting the messenger'.
Wed Apr 19, 2017, 10:19 AM
Apr 2017

Something he'll do to hostile commentary, but something he calls out when someone does it to his friendly sources.

Orrex

(63,220 posts)
13. Careful, or he'll wave the TOS in your face
Wed Apr 19, 2017, 12:30 PM
Apr 2017

According to his particular bingo card, calling out his fallacies is equivalent to a personal attack.

 

rug

(82,333 posts)
20. I will never shoot the person who carries the trash.
Wed Apr 19, 2017, 05:16 PM
Apr 2017

But I wouldn't say "Author! Author!" either.

 

rug

(82,333 posts)
19. It's a rehash because there is nothing original in the article.
Wed Apr 19, 2017, 05:13 PM
Apr 2017

Mythicism has made valiant efforts to acquire authority but is stll relegated to pockets of the internet. Fitzgerald is a prime example. The article is repackaged comments from mythicists. They are hardly "some important facts about the history of the Bible" at all, much as they'd like tem to be.

Tarico may have been a competent psychologist but, since her self-decribed journey from evangelicalism to atheism, she's consciouskly donned the roll of antireligionist, really without the cred to carry it off. She's been around awhile. Google her.

Meanwhile, I saw no mention of Ftzgerald in the article or the byline. Did you? Why is his name there then?

"Nailed" is mildly amusing, though obvious.



The typography is godawful though. At least the quality of the cover is a fair warning about the quality of the contents.

Yes, disadain is the word I would use.

padfun

(1,787 posts)
6. Logical fallacy
Wed Apr 19, 2017, 09:29 AM
Apr 2017
Generations of Christian apologists have pointed to the existence of Christian martyrs as proof their religion is true, asking “Who would die for a lie?” The short answer, of course.


By this logic, the Heaven's Gate cute would have to be true as well, since "Who would die for a lie?".

NeoGreen

(4,031 posts)
8. Biblical Contradictions: Not just for the Canonical Gospels...
Wed Apr 19, 2017, 09:57 AM
Apr 2017

...


All of the gospels contain anachronisms and errors that show they were written long after the events they describe, and most likely far from the setting of their stories. Even more troubling, they don’t just have minor nitpicky contradictions; they have basic, even crucial, contradictions.


A Visual Representation of Biblical Contradictions
https://sciencebasedlife.wordpress.com/2011/03/20/a-visual-representation-of-biblical-contradictions/


 

hrmjustin

(71,265 posts)
11. I understand I can not prove the existence of Jesus or God, and I understand the skepticism.
Wed Apr 19, 2017, 10:25 AM
Apr 2017

But I still believe in Jesus and accept it as a matter of faith he existed.

Orrex

(63,220 posts)
14. Randle Helms penned an interesting book called "Gospel Fictions"
Wed Apr 19, 2017, 12:38 PM
Apr 2017

In it, he goes to considerable lengths to trace the numerous historical precedents for the Christ myth as well as the dubious historicity of the Gospels themselves.

I own it but haven't read it in 15 years. Nearly all of the criticisms I've read of the book can be boiled down to "But the bible says..."

Check it out, if you can get your hands on a copy.

 

rug

(82,333 posts)
37. That's about persuasive as David Fitzgerald's trilogy.
Thu Apr 20, 2017, 09:40 PM
Apr 2017

Gullibility is in direct proportion to agreement.

MFM008

(19,818 posts)
32. If a tree falls in the forest
Thu Apr 20, 2017, 01:30 PM
Apr 2017

can you hear it?
There are many things in heaven and earth Horatio.

DetlefK

(16,423 posts)
35. But I can see that tree falling. God cannot be heard or seen or felt or smelt...
Thu Apr 20, 2017, 04:07 PM
Apr 2017

There is no way to prove whether that thing you are looking at is God or not.
Cannot be proven.
Cannot be disproven.

If a tree falls in the forest and nobody from now until the end of eternity will ever know whether it fell or didn't fall, did it really fall?

MFM008

(19,818 posts)
36. But those are Gods
Thu Apr 20, 2017, 09:33 PM
Apr 2017

Creations and he knows it fell.
Argument for the sake of argument.
You'll come around...take heart
God believes in you.

DetlefK

(16,423 posts)
40. That post was entirely nonsensical.
Fri Apr 21, 2017, 03:02 AM
Apr 2017

1.
By extension, your comparison means that God must exist because God knows that God exists. Wow. That's really helpful. Just a quick question:
How do you know whether God knows that God exists?
Or does God believe that he exists?
And even if this can be constructed into a theological proof that God exists with respect to himself, that does reveal nothing whether God exists with respect to us.

2.
"God believes in you."
That's merely your belief.




You know what really pisses me off about believers? You have this fascinating and interesting cosmology, but instead of investigating and challenging it and trying to understand it, you declare it to be off-limits. You construct circular, self-referential arguments that have no connection to the rest of the world and explain nothing. And then you declare that this is how it's supposed to be.

Lordquinton

(7,886 posts)
38. Trees exist
Thu Apr 20, 2017, 11:26 PM
Apr 2017

Trees live in forests, trees fall over in time, we can observe all of this, and use it to make accurate predictions. There is zero support for any god, so once someone brings something forward, we can safely dismiss the notion. There is actually evidence against God, so that battle is uphill.

DetlefK

(16,423 posts)
41. We are not talking about trees in general. We are talking about a specific tree.
Fri Apr 21, 2017, 03:08 AM
Apr 2017

I'm asking you: Has that specific tree I'm thinking about fallen down?
You don't know that.

Also, as a scientist I would LOVE to see your evidence AGAINST God. I am a very, very doubtful of your claim.

Act_of_Reparation

(9,116 posts)
42. Absurd.
Fri Apr 21, 2017, 11:48 AM
Apr 2017

The falling tree quip is a lesson in certainty, demonstrating that we can't be absolutely certain about anything, not even processes we experience nearly every day. It doesn't in any way imply that a tree falling in complete silence is anywhere near as likely it being loud-as-fuck, nor does it imply you should give the time of day to anyone suggesting trees don't make noise when people aren't around.

DetlefK

(16,423 posts)
43. Exactly. It's about not knowing what happened in one specific case.
Fri Apr 21, 2017, 12:07 PM
Apr 2017

If you look at enough cases, you can generate an average. And if you look at all the cases... the Sun will eventually consume Earth and no tree will ever make a sound again.

The scientific method does not apply to God, because God is being defined as unique. You cannot make a prediction for something that has no comparable example.
God, as defined by Christians, is philosophically too weird an object to be handled by the scientific method. It's outside of the capabilities of science.

Consider it from a mathematical point of view:
You have a problem, but none of the methods in your textbook can solve that problem. Does that mean the problem is unsolvable? No. It just means that you need a new method. (And I don't mean religion. Religion was an evolutionary predecessor of science. There's no point in going back.)

Act_of_Reparation

(9,116 posts)
44. My point is that it isn't unreasonable to dismiss people claiming the exception.
Fri Apr 21, 2017, 01:12 PM
Apr 2017

We can be reasonably certain a tree falling alone in the forest makes a noise. We can be reasonably certain a 1st century Nazarene carpenter not mentioned once by contemporaneous sources didn't rise from the dead.

The scientific method does not apply to God, because God is being defined as unique.


I can define anything as unique and therefore not subject to the scientific method. That doesn't mean it's true.

Lordquinton

(7,886 posts)
46. If you are talking about a specific tree
Fri Apr 21, 2017, 11:46 PM
Apr 2017

Than we can actually go out and visit that tree to see it's condition.

Against God? Well, evolution, lightning rods, plate tectonics, multiple Faith's...

PsychoBabble

(837 posts)
28. Side view
Thu Apr 20, 2017, 11:27 AM
Apr 2017

Wish there was as much attention paid to the positive values within the Bible (or any such book/religion), regardless of historical details.

Shouldn't the true value of the Bible/Christianity be about HOW to live, vs. the "person" of Jesus?

Seems like the insistence on details are where everyone comes off the rails, and the wars, verbal and physical, start.

Fix The Stupid

(948 posts)
33. Why do you need a book to on "how to live"?
Thu Apr 20, 2017, 02:39 PM
Apr 2017

Anyone who needs a book about "HOW to live" should be put down anyway.

Sad commentary on how society really is out there.

" I need this book written 2000 years ago by goat bangers to tell me how to live today.."

That is scary right there....do you really need to read in a book how to treat other people? Seriously? Can't deduce this from your own life experiences? You really have to see it written down somewhere, "Thou shalt not steal" or else you'll be a thief? WTF?

We're fucking doomed on this planet if this is how the vast majority of people believe and act.

Sad.

Igel

(35,340 posts)
45. By "adaptation" the writer shouldn't mean "made up by the writer."
Fri Apr 21, 2017, 10:17 PM
Apr 2017

A usual view is that Mark was a primary source, but there were other sources, many of which were compilations of sayings that have no special status as recent innovations. In fact, they might be older than Mark's source. Or might not.


A lot of Bible criticism goes in cycles. It's like I was told in the '90s--one way of making a name for yourself in Slavistics was to show that Roman Jakobson was wrong. It was a cottage industry, and not worth the paper or effort.

Now, Bible critics are after truth. On the other hand, if they dispose of text that provides the basis for doctrines they don't like, if they dispose of confining and constricting wordage, then they have a freer hand and can say more impressive and important things. There's no money in being a Bible scholar that is sharply traditionalist, and no fame.

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