Let's defend misogynist patriarchal authoritarian religions

[Warren Stupidity]

that demand women dress in ridiculous cumbersome garb with claims that the women oppressed by these religions are making emancipating choices in attire.

Who's with me?

[rug]

1. Right after you defend this, warren.

[okasha]

5. There is no defense.

A woman on the ground, surrounded by four armed men, forced to strip. The imagery inevitably suggests that the next step is rape.

Her body does not belong to the state. Her body, her choice.

[rug]

6. It is that stark.

And his only defense is snark.

[okasha]

7. The OP shows concern for women

only as a means to pursue opposition to Islam.
I wonder what he makes of the fact that among the Muslim Tuareg people, the men veil; the women do not.

[rug]

8. Fascinating. I hadn't heard that.

Islam is such a monolith.

[okasha]

9. It would be so convenient for some if it were.

[jonno99]

34. Indeed. However it does appear that the practice of their men "veiling" has a more practical origin:

Tuareg men begin wearing a veil at age 25, which conceals their entire face excluding their eyes. This veil is never removed, even in front of family members. It is believed that men began wearing the veil to protect their faces from the Sahara sands.

http://www.pri.org/stories/2011-10-29/tuaregs-5-things-you-need-know

[skepticscott]

14. This from the person

Who claimed that posters here only stood up for LGBT rights as an excuse to bash religion.

[msongs]

10. that woman is caught between two different groups of sexist men, the police on the beach and the

police in her personal life

[okasha]

11. You have no idea what this woman wears

away from the beach. For all you know she's a doctor or lawyer and dresses according to the standards of her profession.

[cleanhippie]

13. Lol. Sure, that's the most probable scenario, that she's not forced to wear a burkini but does it

Willingly, then dresses in modern, western style clothes for work.

[Brettongarcia]

65. Troubling. But the tens of thousands killed by religion...

... every year should not be forgotten.

One woman being forced to strip is very bad. But thousands of religiously-motivated murders, war deaths, every year - and historically, billions? - might be considered worse by some.

[Warren Stupidity]

12. Let's defend misogynist authoritarian patriarchal religions

that demand women dress in ridiculous cumbersome garb with claims that the women oppressed by these religions are making emancipating choices in attire.

Who's with me?

[skepticscott]

15. Yes, it's rather like arguing

that if a woman is in an abusive relationship, she must like it, or have chosen it, because otherwise she'd just leave, right?

[rug]

16. Your turn to explain this, scottie.

Seems he's not up to the task.

[skepticscott]

17. I don't see myself

doing anything in that picture. Why would I be either obliged or able to explain their behavior?

Feel free to ask them to explain.

[rug]

18. Ok. I note you have no opinion on four armed police officers telling a woman to remove her clothes.

Because . . . . it's religious garb!

[skepticscott]

19. You didn't ask for my opinion

You asked me to explain other people's behavior. I gave up trying to explain the behavior of dickheads a long time ago, ruggie.

[rug]

20. I'll play. What's your opinion of this?

[JoePhilly]

26. Exactly ... who can defend THIS ....

One of them is wearing SUN GLASSES for Christ's sake!!!

[guillaumeb]

29. Really? Did you have to say:

for Christ's sake?

Stand in the corner.

[JoePhilly]

31. I denounce and reject my heretic-ic-al behavior.

I considered going with this image instead ...

[guillaumeb]

32. Which can also be used in the GUN section to "prove"

that Jesus was a gun owner.

[saidsimplesimon]

54. This thread is loaded

with humour. Thank you for this zinger, guillaumeb.

[guillaumeb]

57. My new years resolution is to be more silly.

I just made it. After Gene Wilder's passing the world needs more silly.

[jonno99]

30. Well, the most obvious answer is that they volunteered to do and be what they are - and

more importantly, they can leave the order any time they like - without fear for their personal safety.

[JoePhilly]

33. I'd challange that ...

First, there are plenty of Muslim women in this country who would be under zero threat to their personal safety for not dressing that way. In fact, I know a woman who grew up Catholic, and then converted to Islam when she married her husband, a Muslim American from Moracco. She went from micro skirts, to head to toe coverage. Her choice.

The only difference between and nun, and a Muslim women is the order they join. Both tend to join early in life. My friend not with-standing.

But if we want to say everyone should be allowed to dress as they wish ... we can not then attack women for dressing in whatever manner they select.

Religions tend to make women dress in specific ways ... as yet another example ...

[jonno99]

35. I'm not sure from reading your post where the challange lies. Nothing from what I posted

was refuted.

Not to mention that it is not only the Catholic schools where the kids wear uniforms:
https://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=50

[JoePhilly]

36. First ... uniforms started with Religious schools.

The fact that other schools have adopted them, at times, says only that uniforms help ensure compliant behavior.

Which is the goal of every Religion on the planet. Compliant Behavior.

Nuns, being very Religious "choose" to wear a "Habit". It is how they express their Religious belief.

Why is it strange to think that women in other religions would "choose" to wear clothing that expresses their Religious beliefs.

Personally, I think all Religious belief is nonsense. But I won't try to stop anyone from believing. And so I also will not try to stop them from dressing however they want to dress as a result. How they dress has ZERO impact on my life.

Now ... if they start trying to pass laws that require adherence to any of their nonsensical religious beliefs, then I have an issue. And I would fight that.

But if I said that I get to decide which Religious attire should be BANNED, then I'd actually be doing the same thing as the Religious nut jobs.

[jonno99]

37. I agree with you - except for your view on uniforms. They ensure "compliant behavior"?

Perhaps, but more importantly (IMHO), uniforms help create an environment more likely to be free of the peer pressure and anxiety students would otherwise contend with concerning their "dress style".

Not to mention the lower cost - a big plus for many families.

[tymorial]

38. More logical fallacy

This site is literally infected with it.

[TexasTowelie]

3. Irrespective of religion,

how dare you take away women's cumbersome garments when winter is coming soon to New Hampshire.

[Warpy]

4. I'd rather defend the women

Since there aren't any religious vigilantes in my 'hood, Muslim immigrant women tend to move from the full body veil to the hijab pretty quickly and I've seen a few out and about with no hair covering. They can progress to western clothing at their own speed or not progress at all, their choice.

Why the hell would what any woman chooses to wear bother you?

Well, I mean beyond a tired complaint about the fashion police never being around when you really need them.

[Major Nikon]

24. If it's truly a choice they can and should wear whatever they want

The fashion police are a real thing in many parts of the world and in other areas it just isn't that much less compulsory. The whole idea behind restrictive women's clothing in oppressive religious culture is that women are considered tools of the devil. Any furtherance of that idea should be rejected by all decent people.

[Lordquinton]

21. Religion loves to police women's bodies

In the name of their liberation, of course. The Abrahamic religions are build on the foundation of shaming women's bodies for what Eve did to Adam. They were free and innocent, and then a talking snake convinced her to eat an apple and poof women are forced to cover up forever!

Even today in the great USA women are forced to cover up, and face consequences if they don't. All because of a talking snake.

[rug]

22. It's the police here that are policing women's bodies.

Do you support that?

[Lordquinton]

50. Do you support abortions?

simple question with a yes/no answer. And you're at least 3 years overdue answering it.

[rug]

56. Do you support appendectomies?

What a stupid question:"What medical procedures do you support?"

If it weren't for your seething anti-catholicism, you would not overlook the issue is the legalization of abortion versus the criminalization of abortion.

[Lordquinton]

61. Do you support Abortions?

Don't pretend this isn't an important question Rug. And you cannot compare it to any other procedure.

lol at your last line, co-opting the language of the oppressed so it seems like you're the victim in any situation.

Now, answer the question Rug, or I'm gonna have to assume that your reluctance to answer is a yes, like that last time we had this go around and you concluded that you refused to answer because you might get banned for it.

[rug]

62. I'm not playing your tedious game quinton.

Read my reply again. It is complete.

You can assume anything you like since you obviously prefer imaginary thoughts to reality.

[okasha]

25. Just in case you didn't notice,

what we have here is armed representatives of a secular state policing a woman's body in the name of secularism.

And by the way, Adam had to cover up.too.

[Lordquinton]

51. And if this were in Saudi Arabia it would be the oppisite

she would be forced to wear a body covering, by an armed representative of the state. Either way Religion is to blame, and the same core beliefs at that.

[okasha]

55. Only if secularism and patriarchy are religions.

Nice attempt to deflect. Didn't work.

[guillaumeb]

28. Did you miss the first few responses?

Or is forced stripping by the state something you approve of if it is done in the name of "tolerance"?

Bizarre.

[Lordquinton]

53. Is forced covering something you support?

There are parts of the world where women can be killed for not covering up (Of maimed with acid, or what have you) but when that comes up we get flooded with tales of women who choose to wear a covering, and the fact that the places on earth where a woman can actually choose to go uncovered is a number approaching zero.

But hey, this actually isolated incident that has already had a stop put to it is enough of an excuse for an atheist hate fest, so carry on.

[guillaumeb]

59. Some towns in France are still defying the order.

Forcing tolerance by being intolerant sets a great example.

[Lordquinton]

60. And what about literally everything else I said?

that, as always was conveniently ignored?

[guillaumeb]

63. Intolerance in the name of "civil order" and "secularism" is still intolerance.

Forced clothing choices are forced choices.

[guillaumeb]

64. I do not support forced covering or forced uncovering.

So how does this make the tolerant secular state of France better?

[trotsky]

23. I would love for everyone to be fully free to choose what they want to wear.

But I don't think we as liberals should fool ourselves into thinking all that many people - especially women, and especially women in misogynist patriarchal authoritarian religions - truly have the freedom to choose. When the "choice" is essentially dress a certain way or face judgment from a god (or rather, men who think they speak for a god), how freely can that choice be made?

[guillaumeb]

27. Pathetic, uninspired, tired old religion bashing and intolerance disguised as liberal.

Other than that, the responses to this trash are great.

[Warren Stupidity]

39. yes indeed those tired old religions do need bashing,

[cleanhippie]

40. Those accustomed to privilege see equality as oppression.

Your knee-jerk, inflammatory response is fully expected.

[DonCoquixote]

41. to be fair

as much as you may hate religion, do you really want the cops to be able to threaten people in the name of getting rid of it? It's one thing to say Religion sucks, it is another to involve cops. If you do not understand why unleashing cops is dangerous, there are people in places like Baltimore MD and Ferguson MO that can explain that far better than I can, especially the ones who are dead because the police were only "doing their job."

[cleanhippie]

42. Did I advocate for using the police in the way you describe?

Wait, lemme answer that: no.

[rug]

43. Well, then, do you oppose these actions of the police against Muslim women?

Lemme make it easy for you.

Circle one:


YES


NO

[cleanhippie]

44. Which ones? The ones in France? Yes, I do.

That's the story you're taking about, right?

[rug]

45. Correct.

[cleanhippie]

46. Was there a point to your exercise? Or was it just to see what a straightforward answer looks like?

[DonCoquixote]

47. then do explain reply 13

where your response to a woman being harassed my police was a smiley face of laughing and rolling on the floor as well as doubting she dressed in secular dress for work, as if that was any of your business. If you were not intending to make fun of the woman being harassed, you may want to clarify.

Let me clarify what could easily be misinterpreted:

"13. Lol. Sure, that's the most probable scenario, that she's not forced to wear a burkini but does it

Willingly, then dresses in modern, western style clothes for work."

Many Muslim women do exactly that, but then again, in a truly secular society whose business is it? At the very least, you may want to clarify why it was POLICE business if you are going to post snark about a photo that already made some women concerned.

[trotsky]

48. Is there any misogyny in religion?

Or is it perfect?

[Iggo]

49. I defend people against bigots.

Fuck religion.

[rug]

58. Do you defend the women wearing burkinis from the police removing them?

Fuck hypocrisy.

[Agnosticsherbet]

52. How a woman chooses to dress, whether it be in a Hijab or naked, is a woman's choice.

I have no right to criticize her.

Those "misogynist patriarchal authoritarian religions" are big enough to defend themselves.