Church of England criticized over prayers for atheist Richard Dawkins

[rug]

Updated 5:09 AM ET, Sun February 14, 2016

London (CNN) The Church of England has been accused of "trolling" scientist Richard Dawkins after it tweeted it was praying for the outspoken atheist's recovery from a stroke.

Dawkins, a distinguished evolutionary biologist at Oxford, is one of the world's leading voices for secularism, and a fierce critic of religion.

When news broke Friday that the 74-year-old had suffered a minor stroke, forcing him to cancel scheduled appearances in Australia and New Zealand, the Church of England retweeted a report of his condition with a statement offering "prayers for Prof. Dawkins and his family."

Church of England ✔ @c_of_e

Prayers for Prof Dawkins and his family https://twitter.com/independent/status/698248478632194049
…
3:56 PM - 12 Feb 2016
1,663 1,663 Retweets 1,196 1,196 likes

The remark proved divisive on Twitter, with some describing it as insensitive given Dawkins' widely known disdain for religion.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/02/14/europe/uk-dawkins-stroke-tweet/index.html

https://twitter.com/c_of_e/status/698249409663000577?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

[Human101948]

1. Perhaps they are following the example of Christ?

But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

Matthew 5:44

[rug]

2. Matthew trumps twitter.

[Mariana]

7. Christ also told his followers to pray privately.

I'm sure there are many Christians who are sincerely praying for Richard Dawkins, and don't feel the need to make a public announcement that they are doing so.

[Human101948]

8. Yes he certainly did...but that's one of those commands that are ignored by the "devout"

I noticed there were a bunch of people on their knees in front of the Supreme Court after Scalia died, posing for the TV cameras.

I believe that Jesus would call them hypocrites.

[stone space]

15. I've seen people on their knees praying on the steps of the US Supreme Court before.

I noticed there were a bunch of people on their knees in front of the Supreme Court

In 1987, a few hundred of us (the number 481 comes to mind, but it was a long time ago) sat down on the steps of the US Supreme Court in opposition to their 1986 Bowers v Hardwick ruling.

There were more than one affinity group (not mine) on their knees that day on those steps, praying quite publicly, for the US Supreme Court to see the error of its ways.

We were all arrested, held for 48 hours, and released.

This ruling we were questioning was later overturned in Lawrence v Texas in 2003. (Scalia dissented, arguing in his dissent that the decision would lead to the legalization of gay marriage and masturbation. He was right. Both gay marriage and masturbation are now legal. And may he rest in peace.)

The CD was done in conjunction with the Gay Rights March on Washington, that had occurred a few days earlier.

I didn't know it at the time, but leading the way, at the front of the march, was Cesar Chavez.

(So, with all this talk about who marched with who going around, I get to say, "I marched with Cesar Chaves and didn't even know it!&quot



By the way, here's what Cesar Chavez had to say about prayer, while we are on the topic:

"We are militant. You have to be militant to stand on a picket line with a gun pointed at your head. You have to be militant to keep pressure on growers all the time, pushing them back from barrier to the next...We have found prayer important in nonviolent work, but it's most effective when accompanied by lots of hard picketing"

https://books.google.com/books?id=c_VE3xUR5FEC&pg=PR10&lpg=PR10&source=bl&ots=RO4GjYzcpC&sig=CX7lTxjB3XobI0M7u9hGe9kwBMU&hl=en&sa=X&ei=1CnuVLCnDMWPyATEs4DIDw

[rug]

9. He was calling out ostentatious, insincere hypocrites.

He was not telling people to hide in their homes to pray.

Do you think the CoE was being ostentatious, hypocritical or insincere?

[Mariana]

10. Ostentatious, yes.

By the way, he doesn't say, in this particular passage, not to be a hypocrite (he does that elsewhere, I believe). Here he says not to behave the same why the hypocrites do. "And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others...."

The CoE didn't just pray for Dawkins. They went out of their way to make sure lots of people would know they were praying for Dawkins. That seems like a modern equivalent of praying in the streets and synagogues so as to be seen by others.

Whether they are sincere, I have no idea. I can't read their minds.

[rug]

11. A post on twitter is hardly ostentatious.

"Do not be like the hypocrites" is scarcely different from "Don't be a hypocrite."

[Mariana]

12. Why announce it at all?

What exactly does that accomplish?

It's not about Dawkins - I feel the same way about any public statements by any individual or organization about their prayers. If someone wants to pray for the guy, just pray for the guy.

[rug]

13. Two possibilities.

One, it is a sincere expression.

Two, it sets an example for those that do pray.

[AtheistCrusader]

17. Third possibility: Dick move - trolling

[stone space]

22. How is praying for somebody to get well a dick move?

Third possibility: Dick move - trolling

This doesn't even make sense.

[AtheistCrusader]

23. Telling a known atheist you're doing it can absolutely be a sanctimonious asshole thing to do.

[stone space]

27. Since when do we atheists object to prayers?

Telling a known atheist you're doing it can absolutely be a sanctimonious asshole thing to do.

Objecting to prayers isn't a sign of atheism.

It's a sign of a sanctimonious asshole.

Who else is going to object to prayers?

[AtheistCrusader]

43. 'we' are a variety of people with a variety of backgrounds.

Your experience and your preferences may not find prayer objectionable.

You, are not everyone.

[stone space]

54. Do you get upset at folks who pray for you when you are hospitalized?

I don't mean do you pretend to get upset.

I mean do you really get upset?

How do you feel about Christians who get upset at atheists who send good thoughts to somebody who is hospitalized?

[AtheistCrusader]

56. I am annoyed when people who know me, attempt to do so, yes.

I also dismiss/dislike the 'sending vibes' shit.

When my friends are in the hospital, I get my ass in my car, and I go to the hospital, and I SEE them, and do what I can to help, and bring them shit and help them keep on top of their personal stuff/feed cat/dog, things like that.

Sending good vibes is just like prayer, a polite way to say 'I'm not going to help you, but I'm going to excuse myself from having to help you and pretend that I'm still in some sort of meaningful personal relationship with you.'

[stone space]

59. Maybe you just need to mellow out a bit.

Prayers and good thoughts are unlikely to harm you.

But obsessing over them just might.

[AtheistCrusader]

60. When people do something disrespectful to me, it's my fault for not liking it.

Got it.

I'll recalibrate my equipment accordingly.

[stone space]

62. Praying for you to get well is not disrespectful.

You just made that up.

[AtheistCrusader]

63. It certainly can be.

[rug]

25. Projection. There's a hell of a lot more trolling in here on a daily basis.

Now this is trolling of the highest order.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1225&pid=866

Trolling you recommended.

[AtheistCrusader]

29. And?

[rug]

32. Yo're in no position to surmise the CoE's intentions.

[AtheistCrusader]

42. I'm not?

I will take that as a statement that I have no experience with trolling and thus cannot spot it when someone else does. Thank you. This is clearly a no-troll zone, so it would be appropriate that none of us ever condescend to trolling each other. That just wouldn't be polite anyway.

[rug]

44. No, what you are referring to is actually called projection, not inference.

[AtheistCrusader]

46. So you're really going to sit there, a grown-assed man, and pretend there's no chance whatsoever

that it's even a possibility that the CoE might be ribbing Dawkins a bit.

Really.

ZERO chance. (I only said it was a third possibility, not a certainty.)

[rug]

47. I never gave odds but it's slight. Very slight.

But, as you said, your trolling experience is greater than mine.

[AtheistCrusader]

49. Is it?

"as you said"

Link.

[AtheistCrusader]

18. Yep, maybe, yep.

[TexasProgresive]

3. Aren't Christians suppose to pray?

Since atheists don't believe in God or prayer why would the care if someone prays for them? Could be it is a case of St. Paul's advice to love your enemies it will heap burning ashes on their heads. or something like that.

[stone space]

5. This is bizarre. I don't know what to make of it.

Hell, my wife prays for me when I am in the hospital.

I may be an atheist, but she's not.

Am I supposed to be upset with her for praying?

[rug]

6. I'm not the one to ask.

[stone space]

14. Somebody should be around soon to point out...

...how science has proven that those prayers were actually harmful, no doubt.

It's a miracle that I survived the prayers!

[AtheistCrusader]

16. Does she rub it in your face?

Probably not, right?

[stone space]

19. I don't see praying as rubbing anything in anybody's face.

I may be an atheist, but I'm also an adult.

It is quite possible to be both simultaneously.

[AtheistCrusader]

20. Praying isn't. But the "HEY I'M PRAYING FOR YOU!!!" thing is kinda, a little bit, wouldn't you say?

Praying for someone
and
Telling someone you're praying for them

are two entirely different things. Completely unrelated and unnecessary to each other.

If you pray for someone and they get better, brilliant. Mission accomplished for you, right? You got your wish.
If you pray for someone and tell them and they get better, are they supposed to be grateful now? How can they know if your prayer helped at all? At best, you've inflicted a moral conundrum and a guilt trip to someone who doesn't pray, but may or may not utterly dismiss prayer as a possible source of good outcomes.
If you tell someone you're praying for them, and you don't even bother to pray, who can ever know? No one.

So yeah, telling that to someone who doesn't pray and doesn't value prayer, is kinda shitty.

[stone space]

21. Oh, well...if that's your standard, then yes, she does rub it in my face.

But the "HEY I'M PRAYING FOR YOU!!!" thing is kinda, a little bit, wouldn't you say?

I didn't realize just how low the bar was set for you.



Of course she tells me that she's praying for me.

Why should she not tell me?

She doesn't do the internet thing, so she hasn't run across those scientific studies that are commonly offered up here in this forum as proof of just how dangerous prayers are for sick folks.

[AtheistCrusader]

24. "Why should she not tell me?"

The answer to that question depends entirely on how you personally accept such things.

You can choose to like it, if you want. But don't pretend everyone should just because you personally do.

[stone space]

26. Don't pretend that praying for somebody is offensive. It is not.

[AtheistCrusader]

28. Says you.

To some audiences, it is functionally no different than telling a vegan 'I'm going to eat this bacon double cheese for you'.

Some vegans wouldn't care. Some would think the person in question is being an asshole.

[stone space]

30. You have no arguement, so you simply change the subject to food.

Nice.

[AtheistCrusader]

31. It's an example, based on a philosophy.

Do try and keep up.

[stone space]

33. How is praying for somebody to get well offensive?

"Cheesburgers" is not an answer.

[AtheistCrusader]

34. Sorry you don't understand.

[stone space]

35. You haven't even attempted to explain.

You immediately changed the subject to food when asked.

(Yeah, I'm hungry, too!)

[AtheistCrusader]

36. I gave you a useful analogy that included taking into account people's feelings

which is not easy for me to do, having none myself.

You called it 'changing the subject'.

[stone space]

37. How are atheists harmed by prayers?

Besides cheeseburgers, is there any other harm done?

It's a made up problem, it seems to me.

[Goblinmonger]

38. Is it respectful of beliefs?

They know what his beliefs on god(s) are. Why don't they respect that. They could have stated support for him and hopes that he recovers without going against what he believes.

What if Dawkins had tweeted he was going to pray for someone? I'm sure someone in this group would have posted a blog from someone saying how big of a jerk Dawkins is for saying that.

What if I tweeted that I was going to send telepathic messages to Sky Daddy for someone that had a stroke? Would that have been fine since it is my beliefs on god or do you think I should do something more respectful of the beliefs of the person I am claiming I want to "help"?

[stone space]

50. What are his beliefs?

They know what his beliefs on god(s) are. Why don't they respect that. They could have stated support for him and hopes that he recovers without going against what he believes.

What are his specific beliefs that you are referring to, and how does prayers that he recover disrespectful of those specific beliefs?

What if Dawkins had tweeted he was going to pray for someone? I'm sure someone in this group would have posted a blog from someone saying how big of a jerk Dawkins is for saying that.

Not unless they believed that his prayers were insincere.

Folks criticize insincere prayers all the time, but we are talking about sincere prayers here, aren't we?

What if I tweeted that I was going to send telepathic messages to Sky Daddy for someone that had a stroke? Would that have been fine since it is my beliefs on god or do you think I should do something more respectful of the beliefs of the person I am claiming I want to "help"?

Calling it a "Sky Daddy" is pretty good evidence of your insincerity, isn't it?

That's a criticism magnet.

Don't conflate criticism over insincerity with criticism over prayer.

If you offered your good thoughts or good vibes or whatever, nobody would complain. That's the appropriate analogy here, not insincere prayers to a "Sky Daddy", and certainly not cheeseburgers.

[AtheistCrusader]

58. "Not unless they believed that his prayers were insincere."

That moment where you're not sure if the other person in the conversation may have just accidentally GOTTEN THE MESSAGE.

[stone space]

61. Then complain about insincerity, not prayer.

Your offense is misplaced.

[AtheistCrusader]

64. Inseparable.

[stone space]

65. Bullshit. (nt)

[AtheistCrusader]

66. It's funny you want me to tolerate your, and the beliefs of others, and no consideration is given

to my beliefs.

[stone space]

67. What are your beliefs?

and no consideration is given to my beliefs.

[AtheistCrusader]

68. Prayer is an insincere and meaningless cop-out to avoid materially helping someone who could

really use material help.

Praying for someone who has cancer does fuck-all. Going there, being with them, lifting their spirits, getting them out of the hospital for fresh air/events, making them LAUGH, making them happy, coaxing them to some level of exercise, all these things have a material, meaningful impact on their health/expectation of survival. Well documented.

Prayer does nothing. When Prayer can be shown to have a positive effect, I'll change my beliefs accordingly.

http://www.nccn.org/patients/resources/life_with_cancer/exercise.aspx
http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp1211775


Material vs. immaterial.

I respect one of those options.

[stone space]

69. Wh not just say you believe that religious folks are assholes?

Prayer is an insincere and meaningless cop-out

And that their existence is offensive to you?

[AtheistCrusader]

70. Because that's not my position.

Edit: I understand though, why you would very much like it to be my position. You should reflect on that.

[stone space]

71. At least you don't claim that it has anything to do with atheism.

That's progress.

[AtheistCrusader]

72. I never did.

Atheists are simply one easily identifiable demographic to which one might consider whether waving prayer in their face is a respectful thing to do or not.

There are faiths that do not 'do' prayer either, and vary on whether it's just an ignored meaningless thing, or an offense.

[stone space]

73. Are atheists more likely than non-atheists to be sanctimonious assholes?

Atheists are simply one easily identifiable demographic to which one might consider whether waving prayer in their face is a respectful thing to do or not.

You seem to suggest that we are.

The fact that both words start with an "A" is just a coincidence.

[AtheistCrusader]

74. You seem to be stringing random words together now.

I don't know what target you're aiming at, but it's nowhere near me.

"You seem to suggest that we are."

Clean miss.

[AtheistCrusader]

39. How is a vegan harmed by someone eating meat 'for them'?

It's the intangibles.

For something to be offensive does not require a measurable material harm.



Telling that to a vegan is... what? Friendly? Asshole-ish? You tell me.

Some vegans might not care. Some atheists might not care that someone wants to inform them they are praying for them. SOME of both groups, will be offended by those respective ideas.

[rug]

40. Hmm, have you seen the cartoons posted in here?

Routinely.

[AtheistCrusader]

41. Not clear how that relates to stoned's question.

"Am I supposed to be upset with her for praying?"

The answer to that question is no, not if it's not offensive to you. But it might be offensive to someone else.

[rug]

45. It relates to your post and your unusual concern for offending people.

[AtheistCrusader]

48. I think it relates more to your reading comprehension.

I answered his question, best I could. He didn't seem to appreciate that it is even possible for a non-religious person to be offended by someone informing them they are going to pray for them.

Not whatever that bullshit you just said.

[stone space]

52. Anybody can feign offense.

He didn't seem to appreciate that it is even possible for a non-religious person to be offended by someone informing them they are going to pray for them.

But being offended at a religious person sincerely praying for your recovery is like being offended at an atheist who sincerely sends good thoughts or good vibes.

Neither one is offensive to somebody not looking for a excuse to be offended.

Now, will you pass the cheeseburgers, please?

It's time for lunch!

[rug]

75. My reading comprehension is fine.

If yoi don't like having what tyo said repeated, tough shit.

[AtheistCrusader]

77. If you could accurately repeat it, that would be something, wouldn't it?

[stone space]

51. We aren't talking about cheeseburgers. Try again. (nt)

[AtheistCrusader]

53. Aaaaand you're caught in a loop again. Oh well.

[stone space]

55. I'm not the one continually trying to...

...change the subject to cheeseburgers.

Aaaaand you're caught in a loop again. Oh well.

[AtheistCrusader]

57. I refer you back to post 39, have fun looping.

[dorkzilla]

76. I'm an atheist. I'm on numerous prayer chains and the like

As some of you know I was diagnosed with MS in July. I'm pretty sick right now. People who love and care about me are praying for me, even though they know I'm an atheist and I've told them they may get struck by lightning if they do. It's touching, though it means nothing to me, I think they feel like it could help. And I'm glad they care enough to do that of their own volition. It's not like the Mormon church is doing a posthumous baptism, they're praying to their god for my health. No big deal.

There is a whole movement of angry asshole atheist that are just as dickish as holy rollers. To each his own, leave everyone else alone to worship or not.

[Mariana]

78. I guess the difference is they know you don't mind.

I don't think anyone from the CofE asked Dawkins what he thought about it. They just went ahead and issued a tweet, to make sure lots of people would know about their prayers. What bothers people about this situation isn't the prayer itself, it's the public announcement of it. If they would just go ahead and pray privately (like Jesus instructed), they'd never be criticized for it, would they?

[dorkzilla]

79. Fair point

I'm sure I'd be a wee bit miffed if they took out an ad saying "pray for poor, sick Dorkzilla" I may have politely suggested they were wasting time.