Religion
Related: About this forumWhat if religion is just an accident of human culture?
Let's start with belief.
As I wrote in an OP sometime back, belief makes perfect sense from an evolutionary point of view. Belief is a survival-mechanism, because it increases the speed at which children adapt to a hostile nature.
Instead of elaborately communicating to every child all the reasons why this and that should be done this and that way lest they die, belief drastically shortens the learning-timespan. "Here's the situation. Do this. No questions, just do it."
Children who are neurologically inclined to believe accept the counsel more readily and quicker than those children who question and demand lenghty explanations. => Curious people are more likely to die.
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Where does the "divine" come from?
"Divinity" is the projection of the self onto the environment. The agency and the consciousness of the person is projected in an empathic way onto the world. Just as a person assumes that other persons in his/her social environment think in similar ways to him/her, the person begins to assume the existence of further (invisible) agencies in his/her wider, natural environment.
The person sees the way he/she can intentionally shape the environment and postulates that other shapings have also been done intentionally by other persons: gods, spirits, daemons...
As a theory on the nature of the universe, this existence of divine persons, this "theory of gods", makes as much sense as other explanations. It's not that much weirder than postulating that matter is made of invisible "fields". (Well, let's leave the philosophical concept of "experiments" out of this for now.)
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I postulate that religion was created by accident, that religion was never meant to be.
You take a deep-rooted neurological preference that concerns material issues like the well-being of your offspring: The preference to accept a statement without receiving evidence for said statement.
You take an abstract concept how the universe works: The theory that all things in the universe are intentionally done by other entities, except you can't witness those entities directly, only the results of their actions.
Combine your fleshy desire to believe with the rantings of a shaman and you get religion. Religion was never a tool of understanding the universe and widening your knowledge, because belief outlaws violations of the status quo.
I postulate that religion came to be when two unrelated psychological conditions interacted.
TreasonousBastard
(43,049 posts)Several things were happening...
At some point we developed a rudimentary questioning ability, and when we started asking "why?" a deity was an immediate answer. It required simple belief in an abstract concept that couldn't be tested.
We also needed a "decider" and judge who was above the human condition. Humans could argue forever over such things as moral and ethical concepts, but the higher power could dictate which way to go.
Religion was also an equalizer in the battles over power. Stealth and the ability to convince were the weapons of shamans to balance the warlords. Or work with them, as the case may be.
Do we still need it?
Good question.
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)Last edited Mon Jan 4, 2016, 11:31 AM - Edit history (1)
Without religion environmental pressures would have no effect on the frequency our alleles over time! It would be anarchy!
rug
(82,333 posts)So, if that postulate is correct, whence religion?
DetlefK
(16,423 posts)The concept of gods isn't necessary for survival. I was talking about belief there.
Hypothetical situation:
It's a dangerous world out there. A mistake can kill you.
You have two kids. One does as its told, the other one refuses to listen and questions your authority and you get into arguments with that kid that you inevitably lose because you don't have an explanation for everything.
Which of those kids is more likely to survive and produce offspring? The one that doesn't play in the rain or the one that demands an explanation how raindrops could possibly lead to sickness?
Ghost Dog
(16,881 posts)how to ignite, feed and control fire, through experiment and inspiration (and rule-breaking), for example?
After pure Paganism (a certain one-ness with Nature, which gives as well as takes), and perhaps some varieties of Gnosticism, the developed religions are just politics: power-games among elites & followers seeking temporal power).
edhopper
(33,595 posts)Last edited Fri Jan 1, 2016, 07:15 PM - Edit history (1)
believe those religions to be completely real and true?
If it's all just power games and politics?
Ghost Dog
(16,881 posts)of what self-appointed religious institutional intermediaries have to say. I have yet to meet very many 'true believers' here in Europe. But many feel a degree of social conformity to be, um, advisable, depending on circumstances.
At least since the Catholic Church's First Council of Nicaea, faith, not necessarily belief, has been demanded (ie trust your leaders); Islam demands obedience. Direct experience of the Divine (Gnosis), of course, is anathema in both (unless sanctioned, perhaps, by the politico-religious hierarchy).
At least, from my reading of history and observation of some, by no means all, contemporary societies.
What is truly Divine has no need of any kind of supporting man-made infrastructure, imho.
edhopper
(33,595 posts)Belief from religion?
Good question for the OP.
Ghost Dog
(16,881 posts)Hence my contribution to this thread.
Organized religions usually demand, more or less strongly, some such unwavering fealty that might be termed 'belief', but that really boils down to obedience. I see religions as forming part of the tapestry of factors that make up human cultures or societies, a part usually more concerned with temporal power than with metaphysical understanding.
edhopper
(33,595 posts)have a proclivity in believing in the supernatural, unseen agencies and gods?
Ghost Dog
(16,881 posts)Observably, Nature appears to be like that. The anthropic 'god' concept I find too naive, simplistic (but easy to manipulate). Nature spirits seem more suthentic, as do many but not all concepts involved in, eg., modern physics & cosmology...
edhopper
(33,595 posts)against observable evidence that they are wrong. Is there an evolutionary aspect of humans that lead to this?
Ghost Dog
(16,881 posts)to socio-political authority. + What would the neighbors think?
edhopper
(33,595 posts)too many people hold these beliefs as true in the face of evidence and authority.
I don't think they are giving lip service or just submitting to social pressure.
Creationist believe things that are untrue, and it's not because of obedience to authority.
DetlefK
(16,423 posts)There are social and economic policies that have been proven failures. Yet they aren't abandoned and replaced with new policies. Why? Because people refuse to stop believing in trickle-down or Communism.
I define religion as consisting of two components:
* belief - accepting a statement without evidence and even despite disproving evidence
* divinity - the concept that unknown intentional agencies (e.g. a higher power) are behind everything you witness
edhopper
(33,595 posts)and not the organized institutions.
While I can accept the politics power argument as a part of the origins of organized religions, i don't think it explains the beliefs themselves.
DetlefK
(16,423 posts)How do I do this?
Why does this happen?
The ancient Romans and Egyptians and whatnot built huge buildings out of heavy stone-blocks. They knew exactly which designs to choose to create a particular architecture. Yet they had no concept of forces, of statics, of tensions. They didn't know WHY their designs work. All they knew was that they do.
What do you think, how many work-hours were put in in mastering the first intentional fire?
How many work-hours were put in gluing the first pointy rock to the tip of a spear?
How many work-hours were put in stitching the first loincloth?
How many work-hours were put in smithing the first piece of metal?
How many work-hours were put in melting and casting the first piece of copper?
How many work-hours were put in making the transition from shoving sticks under your sled to putting wheels on your sled?
How many generations, how many millions of people, came and went and reproduced successfully with the aid of belief, while one particularly clever person had an idea?
LeftishBrit
(41,208 posts)DetlefK
(16,423 posts)For every success you will have a thousand failures first.
Does this protect against rain? No? The test-subject gets a cold and dies.
Does that protect against rain? No? The test-subject gets a cold and dies.
Does that protect against rain? No? The test-subject gets a cold and dies.
Does that protect against rain? No? The test-subject gets a cold and dies.
Does that protect against rain? No? The test-subject gets a cold and dies.
Does that protect against rain? No? The test-subject gets a cold and dies.
Do water-proof clothes protect against rain? Yes? The test-subject lives.
Test-subjects 1 to 6 would still live if they had just listened to their parents.
Belief: 6 survivors
Science: 1 survivor
Next up: The surviving test-subjects get to test which berries are poisonous. Except for the believers. The believers will take their parent's counsel at face-value instead of eating unknown berries.
edhopper
(33,595 posts)(i think it is Steven Pinker's) certain things are almost universally sought and cherished because they meet several evolutionary developments. Humans did not evolve to eat ice cream, but it satisfies so many things that humans want to eat due to evolution, fat sweet, creamy...that it seems like ice cream is part of our evolution.
religion might be a by product of various evolutionary characteristics of mankind.
Music is another artifact that might be in this category.
DetlefK
(16,423 posts)Symmetry is a powerful signal of genetic quality. If you show a potential mate that you got rythm, you are essentially showing off your good genes and suggest yourself as a candidate for a baby-makin' session.
edhopper
(33,595 posts)Ghost Dog
(16,881 posts)Yes
I do play a little
edhopper
(33,595 posts)in Gods and the supernatural.
Or the organized institutions that have grown around those beliefs?
Ghost Dog
(16,881 posts)indeed.
JRLeft
(7,010 posts)-none
(1,884 posts)Something good or bad happen when I wore or didn't wear...
Something good or bad happen when I did or didn't do...
uriel1972
(4,261 posts)where a timer device was set on a door leading to food. The animals would repeat the actions they took the first time while waiting for the door to open, seemingly to make the door open again.
-none
(1,884 posts)After all, we are animals too.