Vatican refused to sack priest convicted of child sex abuse, documents show

[Warren Stupidity]

The Vatican refused to remove a Victorian priest despite his child sex abuse conviction and the pedophile wanted money to agree to be defrocked, documents obtained by AAP show.

The Vatican has still not agreed to remove Paul David Ryan, 67, from the priesthood, nine years after the Diocese of Ballarat asked he be dismissed, documents before the child abuse royal commission show.

Then Ballarat bishop Peter Connors wrote to the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith in 2006 telling them Ryan was in jail and asking he be laicised as soon as possible.

The Vatican’s response in 2006 was: “The summary of the case that you have provided, while helpful, is insufficient to proceed with your request that Reverend Ryan be dismissed from the clerical state.”

http://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2015/dec/14/vatican-refused-to-sack-priest-convicted-of-child-sex-abuse-documents-show

New pope, same as old pope, but better pr.

[uberblonde]

1. Guess you didn't read the whole thing?

The part where it explains how hard it is to do when the priest doesn't request it?

[AtheistCrusader]

2. You seem to have confused 'claim' with 'explains'.

'It's hard to do because we say so.'

Pretty feeble. One would think that since they actually control/set the process, they could make it happen. The Vatican has refused extradition for convicted priests. Refused to hand over files to the UN/INTERPOL.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-vatican-abuse-idUSBRE9B304620131204

http://www.catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=20161
“Archbishop Wesolowski is a citizen of the Vatican, and Vatican law does not allow for his extradition,”

HOW CONVENIENT.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_Law_of_Vatican_City_State

[Goblinmonger]

7. What's even better is the "due process" response

like it's some big deal to defrock a priest. I mean, if one comes out as gay, they get defrocked pretty quickly. But rape a kid and it suddenly becomes this horribly difficult process that the RCC just can't seem to figure out.

[Lordquinton]

8. Due process?

It's not a court of law, I mean, the actual court of law convicted him and tossed him in jail.

It speaks volumes when the Pope considers being gay a worse crime in the church than being a pedophile, or did Monsignor Krzysztof request to be defrocked?

[Goblinmonger]

9. I know, right. The Vatican has higher levels of due process

except when it doesn't want to, I guess.

Frankly, it's disgusting but not unexpected.

[skepticscott]

12. Disgusting but not unexpected

is also a good description of the defense of this practice by the Catholic apologists on the board. And their attempts to stifle people pointing it out by regular alert trolling (cue the inevitable alert from the usual suspect).

[rug]

27. !

[trotsky]

22. I think I'm gonna be sick.

Thankfully I don't have to read such bullshit directly, but it's bad enough knowing that it's going on here at DU. No wonder some people keep getting timeouts.

[Goblinmonger]

29. Well, now the new argument is that defrocked is different from laicization

When the reality is that defrocked is just he lay term for laicization. Defrocking isn't a term in the Catholic cannon but one just used in everyday language to mean the same thing.

Which, of course, does nothing but deflect from the fact that the RCC will laicize a priest for being gay in about 2 nanoseconds but suddenly finds it impossible to lacize a priest that is found guilty in a court of law of raping children.

[trotsky]

38. Oh FFS.

The precious corrupt institution and its ridiculous, arbitrary rules (that could be changed at any time) MUST BE DEFENDED AT ANY COST.

[rug]

26. Defrocked is not the same as being laicized.

This was a discipline by the diocesan bishop.

Didn't you learn this in your high school seminary?

[Goblinmonger]

3. So the RCC isn't a top-down hierarchy?

That's news. Or bullshit.

[Warren Stupidity]

4. Whatever excuse makes you feel good.

[rug]

6. It's called due process.

The Vatican asked for further supporting documentation or that Ryan himself petition the Pope for dispensation from the priesthood, the documents show.

Ryan was stopped from working as a priest in 1993 but the initial laicisation process in 1994 was never concluded.

Feel free to consider due process an excuse. You'll be far from the only one to do so.

[LiberalAndProud]

10. Why is a conviction not adequate documentation?

Just wondering.

[Warren Stupidity]

11. South Park explained the vatican legal system quite succinctly.

The parents of South Park are a bit concerned when Father Maxi informs them about the Young Men's Catholic Retreat and agree that they don't want their kids to go. They also decide to have a counselor talk to the boys to find out if the priest had been molesting them. Exhibiting no discretion or sensitivity regarding the topic, the counselor asks them straight out, "Did Father Maxi, at any time, ever try to put something in your butt?" Having never been abused by Father Maxi, the boys are suitably baffled by what she was talking about, and begin to wonder why she would ask them such a thing. Cartman has a "brilliant" idea, reasoning what she meant was that it could be possible that eating food through the rectum can cause defecation through the mouth. The other boys (especially Kyle) think it is stupid and disgusting, and Cartman bets him $20 it will work. Meanwhile, all the parents decide to become atheists, as a means of protest to their children being allegedly molested.

Meanwhile, Maxi has gathered a meeting of Catholic priests to discuss the problem of child molestation. Maxi is appalled by such behavior and wants it to cease entirely, but the other priests want to continue molesting the boys, but stop the boys from telling. Maxi decides he has to go to the Vatican. Once there, he quickly finds the same: priests from all over the world are molesting children. They claim the "Holy Document of Vatican Law" does not prohibit the behavior, so Maxi wants to change the law. The Cardinal tells him that the Document cannot be changed as no one knows where it is. Maxi decides to try and find it.

http://southpark.wikia.com/wiki/Red_Hot_Catholic_Love

[LiberalAndProud]

13. Religious legalities can be quite treacherous for the victims of abuse.

Victims, ordered to keep quiet, were forced to confront their abusers in person. All complaints — which averaged one a month for 65 years — were carefully recorded in sealed files, along with the church’s by-the-Bible responses.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/jehovahs-witnesses-face-child-sex-abuse-investigation-in-australia/2015/08/14/d8a58eda-406e-11e5-9561-4b3dc93e3b9a_story.html

[rug]

14. You would think so.

I see Warren has already enlightened you with South Park. I'm sure he's provided you factual information, clear of bias and spin.

Nevertheless, this document (ignoring the cloying piety throughout) explains the actual process:

http://www.leavingthepriesthood.com/The_Laicization_Process_Blog_Archive_through_November_7__2010.pdf

The issue in laicization, as opposed to removing predators from public ministry, concerns thee removal of a person ordained in the RCC from the priesthood itself.

Canon Law is very specific in that process and the pdf cites some Canons. If you're interested in this arcane, but significant, process, which is one distinct from criminal prosecution, you can start here:

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__PZ.HTM

[LiberalAndProud]

15. ... insufficient documentation

The man isn't reoffending because he's IN JAIL.

It was my own denomination which inured me against civil courts instructing religious dioceses in matters of ethics and morality. It is your denomination which I find continues to reoffend, regardless of secular instruction.

Monsignor Krzysztof was unrepentant. Evidently, so is Paul David Ryan.

As for your gish gallop, try this on for size.
http://brokenrites.org.au/drupal/node/54

Ryan has admitted guilt.

[rug]

18. What was yor denomination?

[LiberalAndProud]

20. United Methodist.

For what that's worth.

[rug]

24. There is no question about the institutional abuses across every major religious institution.

I'm sorry you experienced it.

[LiberalAndProud]

28. I'm sorry it happens.

However, when it did, I left the church. So there's a silver lining.

[rug]

30. As am I.

A good distinction.

[LiberalAndProud]

31. Apparently your church is more comfortable that it happens

than either you or I.

That's a travesty and a crime.

[rug]

32. I seriously doubt anyone is comforatble with it, including the College of Cardinals.

[LiberalAndProud]

33. If they're uncomfortable, it is because they are losing parishioners.

I'm on the side of the absent parishioners.

[LiberalAndProud]

16. Reply again, because I am livid.

faithful to their
authentic priestly identity and mission

WTF???1!1??

[LiberalAndProud]

17. Also, because I am still livid.

imbued with
sacred power[1]

Again ...

WTF!!!!????!!!!

[rug]

19. Are you familiar with Donatism?

I'd give you the link but I wouldn't want you to feel gished.

Essentially, it holds that the validity of the sacraments is dependent on the character of the priest.

That notion was refuted in the fourth century.

Sorry you're livid but that changes neither the history nor the facts.

[LiberalAndProud]

21. Donatism: Is that where my church is the 'one true church'

When I look, I find that there are those who believe that about any given denomination or alternate belief structure.

I don't aspire to change history or fact. I aspire to have persons evaluate their belief system, whatever that may be, illuminated by fact and history.

[rug]

23. No, that's Feeneyism.

You'll be happy to know the successor to the Inquisition denounced it more than 60 years ago.

[LiberalAndProud]

34. Who denounced what, when?

Never mind. I think I don't care what you meant.

David Miscavige uses the same a similar method as the Donatists did. He declares that completed auditing sessions have been misapplied and audited badly causing Clears to go all unClear. Operating Thetans have to start over from the beginning. It runs in to a butt load of tuition donations from practioners. Just noting the parallel.

[rug]

35. I'll answer you anyway, without gishing you.

Leonard Feeney was a Jesuit priest in the twentieth century who preached extra Ecclesiam nulla salus, "outside the Church there is no salvation". In other words, there is only One True Church and no one who does not belong to it can be saved.

The Holy Office of the Vatican, once known as the Inquisition, now known as the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, condemned that teaching and excommunicated Feeney in 1953. Twenty years later he was received back into the RCC (to his great relief, as he died five years later.)

[LiberalAndProud]

36. See, I thought you meant that somebody denounced the Inquisition 60 years ago.

Which, aside from being centuries too late, I thought Pope John Paul II did that, sort of, but not in so many words.

Also if the teaching is condemned, someone should give Fr. Cogan a heads up.

https://www.olrl.org/Lessons/Lesson16.shtml

Catechism Lessons
by Fr. William J. Cogan

Lesson 16: PRACTICAL POINTS

A non-Catholic who suspects that the Catholic Church is the one true Church of God and does not investigate Her claims with a mind to join if Her claims prove to be true, cannot be saved, because outside of Christ's Mystical Body (the Catholic Church), there is no salvation.

You should try to bring others "to the knowledge of the Truth" (1 Timothy 2:4) by prudently suggesting that they take instructions in the True Religion.

[rug]

37. That group thinks Pis Xii is still alive and Dick Tracy is still on the radio.

[Lordquinton]

25. The history and facts show the church cares more about you being gay

Than being a child rapist. That's some (papal) bull.

[bvf]

5. What was the explanation, again?