Unbelief As A Belief System: Core Tenet For Christians' Fight For Religious Rights

[rug]

Activists hold posters during a rally in front of the U.S. Supreme Court to support separation of church and state in March 2005 in Washington, D.C. The Supreme Court heard two cases on whether Ten Commandments monuments should be displayed on government properties. )Alex Wong/Getty Images)

Originally Published December 14, 2015·4:08 PM
Updated December 14, 2015·5:21 PM
Tom Glelten

Christian conservatives who are battling for the right to promote their faith in public or official settings see themselves locked in an epic contest with a rival religion. But that rival isn't Islam, it's secularism.

"Secularism and Christianity are distinct, immutable religions," writes David Lane, founder of the American Renewal Project, a group he organized to promote more political participation by conservative pastors. "Secularism advances the fundamental goodness of human nature, where historic Christianity sets forth a pessimistic view of human nature."

The notion that secularism can be seen as a religion is ridiculed by many nonreligious people, but Lane and other Christian conservatives have their own Supreme Court hero to back them up: the late Justice Potter Stewart, who served on the court from 1958 to 1981.

The lone dissenter in a famous 1963 Supreme Court decision that banned Bible readings in public schools, Stewart argued that prohibiting such religious exercises put religion in "an artificial and state-created disadvantage." Such a ban, Stewart said, "is seen, not as the realization of state neutrality, but rather as the establishment of a religion of secularism."

http://www.npr.org/2015/12/14/458969716/unbelief-as-a-belief-system-core-tenet-for-christians-fight-for-religious-rights

6:38 audio at link.

[Yorktown]

1. Unbelief As A Belief System?

That makes atheists polytheists actually:

- unbelief in fairies = belief in un-fairiness
- unbelief in flying teapots = belief in un-flyingteapotsness
- unbelief in god = belief in un-godness
- unbelief in leprechauns = belief in un-leprechaunsness

So little time, so many beliefs in un-Xness.

[edhopper]

2. I guess

he "knew religion when he saw it."

[Lordquinton]

3. What's with your atheist obsession?

Also this article gets it completely wrong.

[rug]

6. You should have kept reading.

That view of secularism as a religion has since become a key part of the conservative argument against a strict separation of church and state. It suggests that when government authorities ban prayers or Bible readings or nativity scenes on public property or in official settings, it isn't avoiding the appearance of state support for religion, it's unfairly favoring one faith tradition over another.

In 1984, President Ronald Reagan cited Stewart's dissent in arguing for a constitutional amendment authorizing school prayer.

A secular viewpoint is normally understood as one that excludes religious references, so Stewart's claim is controversial, even among some people of faith.

"Secularism is a way you look at the relation between government and religion," says Barry Lynn, a Christian minister who also directs Americans United for Separation of Church and State. "If you say religion should keep its hands off government and government should keep its hands off religion, that to me is what a secularist is. You can have any or no theological beliefs backing that up."

The issue is secularism not atheism. Lynn gets it. You don't.

[Major Nikon]

18. You should have kept reading.

Zuckerman has data to back up his assertion that secularists are not a favored group. In a 2014 Pew survey where people were asked to rate 23 possible presidential traits, "atheist" came in dead last. The share of respondents who said they were "less likely" to support an atheist for president had declined by 8 points since 2007, but it remained the least attractive trait a candidate could have, ranking far below using marijuana, having had an extramarital affair or being homosexual.

[rug]

20. And?

Yje issue is secularism, not whether atheists are a favored or disfavored group. The latter is a parochial issue whereas the former affects everyone in a society.

[goldent]

29. Glad you posted that - I was too lazy to go read it.

Really an interesting point of view. It reminds me a little about physics, where it is all about choosing your frame of reference. Might be an interesting topic for IF group.

[Jerry442]

4. "...Render unto Caeser..."

"...the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's."

Is He talking about separation of church and state? Kinda sounds like it.

[mike_c]

5. this is one reason religious people seem like such fools....

I'm willing to bet this is somehow rooted in christianity's overall persecution complex since the context seems to be primarily christian. Nonetheless, I'm an atheist, not a follower of belief in unbelief. That's just the most convoluted logic ever, and it actually excludes real atheism from discussion by substituting "belief in secularism" for "rejection of theism."

Rejecting deities, I also have no need for the rituals and other trappings of religionists. I understand that some folks have tried to organize "atheist churches," and that some religious organizations accept atheists as members. Both seem utterly incomprehensible to me. I don't need to have "fellowship" with anyone else to reject theism. I don't need to be part of an "atheist community" to know that God is a fairy tale that many grown ups seem unable to grow out of. I cannot imagine why anyone who rejects theism would want to join a church of any kind, except maybe out of plain loneliness. Hanging out at the pub seems like it'd be just as effective in that regard, and a whole lot more fun.

[AtheistCrusader]

7. Justice Potter was wrong. And an idiot.

Let me see. An Episcopalian. A Republican. Nominated to the SC by a Republican Presbyterian President..

Gee. Quell surprise he thought secularism should be classified as a religion. Same bullshit sleight of hand religious people have been pulling all across the nation, and failing at it in the courts.

Get out of here with this bullshit.

[rug]

9. "Get out of here with this bullshit."

Are you talking to me or to the author?

Or do you simply have no interest in the legal arguments conservatives are bringing to court, weekly?

I'll take understanding over bravado.

[AtheistCrusader]

11. I'll enthusiastically ignore a lone republican religious dissenter on the court. You bet.

When it comes to a conflict of interest that aligns with those conditions, damn skippy.

If that's the best support the opposition can come up with, their cause is truly lost.

[Major Nikon]

19. The warped motivations weren't hard to spot

The only reason secularism was identified as a religion is so that the state can't give preference to non-belief by banning state sponsorship of actual religion. It completely turns the 1st amendment on it's head and interprets it in a way that is not only completely against what was intended, but nutty as hell. Only someone who wants to believe so badly in abstract entities could come up with such warped jurisprudence.

[AtheistCrusader]

8. Keep quoting religious conservatives pissing and moaning about their loss of privelige though.

It's amusing.

The tears. So delicious.

[rug]

10. You hardly sound amused.

[AtheistCrusader]

12. Well, hearing the same pathetic, feeble argument over and over does get old.

So there's that.

[rug]

14. No shit.

[AtheistCrusader]

16. I know right? It was a nice couple weeks around here.

[rug]

17. Still looks stale.

At least you could have rearranged the furniture.

[AtheistCrusader]

25. No need, since people stopped chewing on it.

[PoutrageFatigue]

28. Not fucking long enough by far...

...Wonder how many timeouts it takes nowadays to get a fucking pizza delivered around here...

[rug]

30. You don't handle disagreement well, do you?

[beam me up scottie]

13. Lmao! Stop picking on religious conservatives!

[Cartoonist]

15. Two quotes from the article

"To me, what makes religion religion is the supernatural beliefs," he says. "So a scientist who is gazing out at the universe and trying to make sense of it by looking at facts, physical properties, material reality, is not engaging in religion. The person who looks out at the universe and thinks there's a magic deity behind it is engaging in religion."
----
Clear as can be. This secularism as a religion BS has got to stop. It's a tactic theists are using the same way Nader tried to say the two parties are the same.


"In some virulent forms of secularism, you have a moral code that is being imposed [that] often comes with the force of penalty of law," he says. "It acts as a religion in terms of demanding conformity and seeking out heretics."
---
Can this particular whacko provide an example of what he's talking about?

[Jim__]

21. There's at least some recent support for that in the courts - from 2014.

From ThinkProgress:

A federal district court in Oregon has declared Secular Humanism a religion, paving the way for the non-theistic community to obtain the same legal rights as groups such as Christianity.

On Thursday, October 30, Senior District Judge Ancer Haggerty issued a ruling on American Humanist Association v. United States, a case that was brought by the American Humanist Association (AHA) and Jason Holden, a federal prisoner. Holden pushed for the lawsuit because he wanted Humanism — which the AHA defines as “an ethical and life-affirming philosophy free of belief in any gods and other supernatural forces” — recognized as a religion so that his prison would allow for the creation of a Humanist study group. Haggerty sided with the plaintiffs in his decision, citing existing legal precedent and arguing that denying Humanists the same rights as groups such as Christianity would be highly suspect under the Establishment Clause in the U.S. Constitution, which declares that Congress “shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion.”

“The court finds that Secular Humanism is a religion for Establishment Clause purposes,” the ruling read.

The decision highlights the unusual position of the Humanist community, which has tried for years to obtain the same legal rights as more traditional religious groups while simultaneously rebuking the existence of a god or gods. But while some Humanists may chafe at being called a “religion,” others feel that the larger pursuit of equal rights trumps legal classifications.

more ...

Good to see you back rug.

[rug]

22. Yes, it's a dangerous strategy especially with the Supreme Court.

Good to see you too, Jim.

[MisterP]

23. well it's a distinct tradition rather than a default position

in some countries it evolved into a whole ersatz religion

but in the Anglosphere it stayed with mechanics' institutes--there's one in NYC I visited

[Goblinmonger]

24. Oh, poor Christians are losing their privilege

so they need to make ridiculous arguments.

[rug]

27. Who said that, other than you?

I suppose you consider this persecution of "poor atheists":

Zuckerman has data to back up his assertion that secularists are not a favored group. In a 2014 Pew survey where people were asked to rate 23 possible presidential traits, "atheist" came in dead last. The share of respondents who said they were "less likely" to support an atheist for president had declined by 8 points since 2007, but it remained the least attractive trait a candidate could have, ranking far below using marijuana, having had an extramarital affair or being homosexual.

[DetlefK]

26. By what definition of religion is secularism a religion???

"In some virulent forms of secularism, you have a moral code that is being imposed that often comes with the force of penalty of law," he says. "It acts as a religion in terms of demanding conformity and seeking out heretics."

The words he is looking for are "law" and "criminal".

[Fumesucker]

31. Damn, rug.. You take a nice restful vacation and then come back to us with this pathetic dreck?

I've scraped better examples of bovine effluvia off the bottom of my Doc Martens, I was hoping you'd bring your A game when you came back.

[rug]

32. If you wear Doc Maretns you're in no position to complain about dreck.

If you are uninterested in the legal arguments the right wing is using, that's not my problem. The world beyond is not an echo chamber.

[Fumesucker]

33. Sometimes Doc Martens, sometimes Crocs, I'm flexible

Whatever I can find at the thrift store, you'd be surprised at the high end shoes no one wants.

No Jimmy Choos yet though.