What I Discovered From Interviewing Imprisoned ISIS Fighters

[struggle4progress]

They’re drawn to the movement for reasons that have little to do with belief in extremist Islam.
By Lydia Wilson
OCTOBER 21, 2015

... Why did he do all these things? Many assume that these fighters are motivated by a belief in the Islamic State, a caliphate ruled by a caliph with the traditional title Emir al-Muminiin, “Commander of the faithful,” a role currently held by Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi; that fighters all over the world are flocking to the area for a chance to fight for this dream. But this just doesn’t hold for the prisoners we are interviewing. They are woefully ignorant about Islam and have difficulty answering questions about Sharia law, militant jihad, and the caliphate. But a detailed, or even superficial, knowledge of Islam isn’t necessarily relevant to the ideal of fighting for an Islamic State, as we have seen from the Amazon order of Islam for Dummies by one British fighter bound for ISIS.

There is no question that these prisoners I am interviewing are committed to Islam; it is just their own brand of Islam, only distantly related to that of the Islamic State. Similarly, Western fighters traveling to the Islamic State are also deeply committed, but it’s to their own idea of jihad rather than one based on sound theological arguments or even evidence from the Qur’an. As Saltman said, “Recruitment .. plays upon desires of adventure, activism, romance, power, belonging, along with spiritual fulfillment” ... Islam plays a part, but not necessarily in the rigid, Salafi form demanded by the leadership of the Islamic State.

More pertinent than Islamic theology is that there are other, much more convincing, explanations as to why they’ve fought for the side they did. At the end of the interview with the first prisoner we ask, “Do you have any questions for us?” For the first time since he came into the room he smiles — in surprise — and finally tells us what really motivated him, without any prompting. He knows there is an American in the room, and can perhaps guess, from his demeanor and his questions, that this American is ex-military, and directs his “question,” in the form of an enraged statement, straight at him. “The Americans came,” he said. “They took away Saddam, but they also took away our security. I didn’t like Saddam, we were starving then, but at least we didn’t have war. When you came here, the civil war started.”

ISIS is the first group since Al Qaeda to offer these young men a way to defend their dignity, family, and tribe ...


http://www.thenation.com/article/what-i-discovered-from-interviewing-isis-prisoners/

GD thread

[Yorktown]

1. As I stated in the GD discussion earlier, this does not account for the foreign fighters

Are the European or Tunisian Muslims fighting out of anger their countries were invaded by the US?

[struggle4progress]

2. Let me first congratulate you for posting one of the silliest statistical graphics I have ever seen!

Assuming 50K Muslims in Finland, 0.095% comes to about 50 people (with the cute note that some have gone to do humanitarian work!); whereas assuming 600K Muslims in Belgium, 0.055% comes to about 300 people. So let's emphasize foreign fighters from Finland

[Yorktown]

4. Congratulations for putting your head so fast in the sand

0.095% is a huge percentage. Let's round it at 0.1% (a 1/20th rounding)

Police statistics say that for 1 person who leaves to 'do jihad', 10 seriously contemplated it

That's a full 1% of Muslims. Limited to people of fighting age, that's 5% of the age group.

And people who contemplate doing jihad have a larger circle of sympathisers.


If you do not see how bad 0.095% is, I suggest you keep trying not to look.

But don't be surprised when you see the bubble grow and burst far more badly one day.

[thucythucy]

3. The article at the link doesn't seem to address this,

but we can speculate.

I would imagine the relatively high unemployment rate among young Muslim men, and the racism they face in their countries of origin might play a role.

I can perhaps draw an analogy to the drug wars here. Most young men who join drug gangs don't do so because they love drugs or have an interest in promoting drug use. They join because they see few if any other options. Gangs offer a sense of community, family even, that they can't find anywhere else. Then there's the lure of excitement, travel, being part of a "greater cause"--however twisted that cause or community might be. Of course, once you join such a group or movement the way back closes.

That's just speculation on my part. It would be interesting to see if anyone has made a serious attempt to answer your question. I expect law enforcement in places like Finland and France are working on the problem with a fair degree of intensity. You might try an on-line search to see if anyone has published anything of worth in this regard.

All that said, the percentages listed in the graphic you post are fairly infinitesimal. The highest appears to be Finland, where less than one tenth of one percent of Finnish Muslims have traveled (and some of them, as stated in the chart, might have gone for humanitarian purposes--as part of Doctors without Borders or what have you). Even this figure is probably skewed, with a small Muslim population to begin with even a few people will goose the percentages. The same is perhaps true of Ireland. And I'm surprised that Egypt and most of Muslim Africa except for Algeria and Tunesia aren't listed, not to mention Bosnia, Albania, Kosovo, and several other areas where Moslems are the majority. Maybe they don't have figures for that? Or maybe the sorts of issues of alienation and exclusion don't apply?

The one country I'd single out as an exception to almost all rules is Saudi Arabia, except from what I've read there are also a fair number of disaffected young men who see no role for themselves in a tightly controlled monarchy whose elite is closed to all but a very few. But I expect religion there plays a more predominant role--as evidenced by Bin Laden and his clique.

Finally, there's probably a sub-group who are simply sociopaths who see a "religious war" as an excuse to indulge their sadism and lust for murder. In the US, such people might grab an assault rifle and take out a school or movie theatre. In France or Belgium or Turkey they join a "jihad." If religion wasn't there, they'd find some other excuse to practice violence.

I'd be interested in reading whatever you might find by way of an answer to your question.

[struggle4progress]

6. The article, in fact, mentions that possibility directly:

... He was working as a laborer to support his huge family when he hurt his back and lost his job. It was then, his story goes, that a friend, from the same tribe but only distantly related, approached him with the offer to work for ISIS. The story has been honed through repeated interrogation and the trial, and comes out pat. Life under the Islamic State was just terror, he says; he only fought because he was terrorized. Others may have done it from belief, but he did not. His family needed the money, and this was the only opportunity to provide for them ...

[thucythucy]

8. My mistake.

I. need. more. coffee.

Anyway, thanks for posting this article. It reinforces my feeling that focusing exclusively on religion misses an entire spectrum of economic and racial discrimination and social and political alienation that have much more to do with why people (mostly young men, I would think) would enlist in such a movement. Not to mention, people will do almost anything to keep themselves and their families from starving.

BTW, thanks also for your many posts here on DU. You are one of the main reasons I come back here when I do. I can pretty much always count on you to cut through the blather.

Best wishes.

[struggle4progress]

12. You are too kind

[edhopper]

5. so religion has nothing to do with it?

Someone telling them that God approves of how they act on their anger is irrelevant?

Do you think people are saying it is religion and ONLY religion.

Because I have seen much more "religion has nothing to do with it" post here, then "religion is the only reason" posts.

[Yorktown]

7. Of course not. Why do you ask.

Oh, btw, here's a photo of the alleged mastermind of the Paris attacks. A Belgian.

Nothing to do with religion.

I think.

[thucythucy]

9. I didn't read this OP as saying "religion had nothing to do with it"

More like, for many people, religion is far down on the list of reasons they join. Particularly people from war torn regions with a long history of political violence and/or oppression and social unrest.

The more we understand why people do what they do, the better able we'll be to end or prevent it.

Edited to add: there is of course a subset of people for whom religion is certainly a primary reason. Osama bin Laden was hardly oppressed or discriminated against. He was indeed a religious fanatic. Even so, I think it makes sense to try to understand as much about these people as we can. Whatever the struggle or debate, I don't think willful ignorance is ever an advantage.

[edhopper]

10. Yes, that is true

my reply was part of an ongoing debate here in which religion is absented from blame and cause.

It was more snark than serious post.

[thucythucy]

13. I haven't been following the larger debate here.

Just this OP.

Best wishes.

[edhopper]

14. That's okay

you made valid points.

[Jim__]

11. Very informative article - thanks for posting it.

It's the first time I've read anything by someone who has spoken with ISIS fighters. It sounds like many of them are just ordinary people, caught up in events completely outside their control, trying to survive - just like soldiers everywhere. Yes, I know. We have to fight them and beat them, but we should remain aware of what we are doing.

Back To School, But There Is A Coming War - Poem by MOHAMMAD SKATI

When I was a little kid, In my childhood, I loved my school Because it meant too much For me anytime, anywhere, and everywhere, Today kids can not back To schools because There is a coming war That prevents them from Coming back to schools, All schools are closed and All kids are homes and their pretty smiles too, A school is closed now, but There is an ongoing war Even it has not started yet, As long as schools are closed, so All kids are staying homes and Their pretty smiles too, A coming war prevents All kids from coming back to schools And their smiles too, Only the voice of war is heard, but life Goes on in complete silence, Tomorrow there might be a war or After tomorrow, but Later on A new dawn will come With all kids back to schools and their smiles too.

[skepticscott]

15. This couldn't be any more intellectually bankrupt

If you interviewed American soldiers about why they volunteered for and fought in the invasion and occupation of Iraq, what reasons would they give? We know...we've heard them. "To serve America". "Saddam attacked us on 9-11". "Saddam had weapons of mass destruction". "I wanted to protect my family and my country".

But even if every single one of those individual soldiers were absolutely sincere about that, would anyone but a moron believe that those were the REAL reasons that war happened, the REAL motivations of the people who initiated and prosecuted it? Anyone? Anyone? How many soldiers would you expect to say "I fought so that Halliburton and the rest of the military industrial complex could get richer" or "I fought to secure Iraqi oil fields for American-controlled interests" or "I fought so that our leaders could feel like tough, macho assholes"?

Exactly.

So why are we expected to believe the same nonsense, the same bankrupt logic, in this case?