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Thats my opinion

(2,001 posts)
Thu Apr 19, 2012, 01:16 PM Apr 2012

Sometime back I posted a version of this newspaper column before it was printed.

Since then several readers have offered important revisions which I have happily adopted.

RELIGION IN NATIONAL POLITICS
No Constitutional issue has generated more legal tangles than the words in the First Amendment; “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof…” The language states that there can be no governmentally authorized religion, but no restriction on religious practice. The purposeful ambiguity has allowed courts to read into the words about anything society was feeling at the moment. Nevertheless, even given the fluidity of the language, there are boundaries.

On one hand, it is clear that the United States has no official church. We are not legally a Christian nation. Those who want an authorized religion are always defeated in court. On the other hand, those who hold that religion should play no public part in national affairs come off no better. Ambiguity seems to rule. Since 1974 Under God has been in the Pledge of Allegiance. In God we trust is on our coins. We have chaplains in our armed forces, and even in Congress. I believe the courts have given a wink and a nod to what many believe are violations. On the other hand, officially sanctioned religious prayers in classrooms are forbidden.

Here is a contemporary question: what is the legal role of religion in political campaigns? Does a candidate have the constitutional right to insert his or her private religious convictions into public pronouncements or campaign literature? When Rick Santorum publically said the birth control issue was part of his religious commitment, that affirmation probably fell under the “free exercise” language. However, if the Catholic Bishops declare that the United States must bow to a purely religious edict, and Congress goes along, that is clearly over the line.

Among a small group of Americans one hears the cry, “keep religion out of politics.” While for some that feels right, we still have the balance found in the First Amendment. Many of us on the political left fume when activists on the political right want to include creationism in science classrooms. On the other hand, there are those who decry the incursion of other issues into the national debate. Would they have tried to keep Martin Luther King Jr. out of the civil rights struggle because he was an avowed Christian who believed that what he stood for flowed from his faith? Had his voice been eliminated on that basis, we would never have had a voting rights law. King’s effort clearly falls on the side of free exercise, but the argument of the creationists may not. In the Dover School District case, it was ruled that creationism was an effort to prove the existence of God using public funds, and therefore unconstitutional.

The Constitution does not guarantee freedom from religion, but freedom of religion. Liberal churches these days are committed to certain social policies, and work to see that they are part of the national consensus. Some examples are the end of the death penalty, the full rights of gay and lesbian persons to marry, the end of torture as a national policy, health care for all, a just immigration agenda, strengthening the social safety net, an end to world hunger---and much more. Promoting these vital matters not just as vital social matters but also as moral and religious imperatives, clearly falls on the free exercise side of the First Amendment.

There are nations which prohibit religious values from having any role in public affairs, but their governing documents are not like ours. For those who believe that religious convictions should have no place in national life, their only option is to seek a change in the Constitution. As of now, the free exercise clause does not prohibit religious groups from speaking in the public square.

The legal favoring of one religion over another or even religion over irreligion has no valid place in our official governmental life. The Ten Commandments are not to be placed in our schoolrooms or on public property. Religious symbols, such as the cross, have no place on national shrines. Congress is prohibited from saying that any one religion or religion in general is the basis for any part of our official national life. Nevertheless, in The United States religion never has been simply a private affair. In the meantime many of us will grimace when some types of religious activities get intruded into our political campaigns, as politicians stand reverently while being prayed for by a religious authority. Although the Constitutional line may not be crossed in such displays, respect for the principle of church/state separation may be.

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HockeyMom

(14,337 posts)
1. The Constitution also never mentioned women
Thu Apr 19, 2012, 01:30 PM
Apr 2012

We needed an amendment for that. Perhaps the same is true for religion. How many athiests were there back in the 18th Century, in comparison to today? As they said a living document, meant to change with the times.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
2. Yeah I remember the first draft.
Thu Apr 19, 2012, 01:32 PM
Apr 2012

There are still significant points on which I believe you are completely wrong. From misstating the secularist position to dismissing the opinions and rights of god-free Americans, you still have a lot to learn.

Thats my opinion

(2,001 posts)
3. Ignoring your put downs which drive most thoughtful theists away from here,
Thu Apr 19, 2012, 02:20 PM
Apr 2012

I would be interested in your real points as matters of discussion.
You obviously are in a better position to clarify the secularist position from the inside then I am from the outside. And please specify how I dismissed the opinions of god-free Americans. Yes, I have a lot to learn, and am open to insights I have not considered.

How do you read the First Amendment? Can you be specific?

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
5. Good thing all your putdowns don't drive thoughtful atheists away.
Thu Apr 19, 2012, 02:29 PM
Apr 2012

We'd rather address your errors than ignore them.

Regardless, these objections were all addressed in your previous thread, where you dismissed or ignored them. Why should I expend effort to just be slapped in the face again? Go look up your other thread and read it again.

Thats my opinion

(2,001 posts)
7. I looked up the other thread and did not find anything by you in the responses.
Thu Apr 19, 2012, 02:48 PM
Apr 2012

What i did find from others did not address the questions I asked above. I would still be interested our working through what you meant in your post.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
10. Ah, of course.
Thu Apr 19, 2012, 08:24 PM
Apr 2012

They're "gotcha" questions, too difficult for you to answer, so you refuse to even acknowledge them.

You are free to embrace the right-wing talking point that there is no freedom FROM religion guaranteed by the constitution. You are free to misstate secularist positions. You are free to belittle all those who won't bow down to your religion and compliment you for it.

But I am free to disagree with you, and that's exactly what I will do as long as you continue your push to have your religion front and center driving the Democratic platform.

eqfan592

(5,963 posts)
4. "The Constitution does not guarantee freedom from religion, but freedom of religion."
Thu Apr 19, 2012, 02:25 PM
Apr 2012

You CANNOT possibly have one without the other. A good quote from this page I think says it best:

The most important thing to remember is that freedom of religion, if it is going to apply to everyone, also requires freedom from religion. Why is that? You do not truly have the freedom to practice your religious beliefs if you are also required to adhere to any of the religious beliefs or rules of other religions.

Thats my opinion

(2,001 posts)
6. i read the "this page" and I find nothing thre with which I disagree.
Thu Apr 19, 2012, 02:40 PM
Apr 2012

No one has the right to insist than anyone else adhere to one's religious dogma or habit. i support that objection totally. But that is not what we mean by freedom of, not from, religion. The author of the piece spells this out better than I could--- if you scroll down his article. I think the difference is how we see the words from and of. i do not believe that we disagree on the substance of the article.

 

skepticscott

(13,029 posts)
11. You still don't grasp how the two are inseparable
Sat Apr 21, 2012, 09:56 AM
Apr 2012

Which makes sense if you think that "freedom of religion" only means freedom to practice SOME religion (which looks a lot like the ones everyone else is practicing) and doesn't include the freedom to practice NO religion.

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