‘Militant Christian’ Anders Breivik wants to be taken seriously

[cleanhippie]

Anders Behring Breivik, self-described “militant Christian,” wants to be taken seriously, and is complaining that he is the subject of ridicule in court proceedings.


The Norwegian anti-Islamic fanatic wants his killing of 77 people last summer to be judged as part of a much larger battle against immigration and multiculturalism, and not as the actions of a mad man. Last July, Breivik killed eight people with a car bomb in Oslo and then shot 69 at a Labour Party summer camp. Breivik went on trial on Monday, April 16, in Oslo.

On Wednesday, Breivik testified at his own trial. At one point an irritated Breivik complained: "I hope you will focus on the issue, not the person." At another point the visibly irritated 33-year-old told the court: “There are only two just and fair outcomes in this case: Acquittal or capital punishment."

Breivik told the court he didn't want to be killed, but said he would "respect" the decision. "I consider 21 years of prison as a pathetic punishment," he said. Later, Breivik described himself as a "militant Christian" who believed in the afterlife. Breivik has pled not guilty to terrorism and murder charges on grounds of "necessity". He called his victims "traitors" with immigrant-friendly ideas.

In his online writings Breivik, a right wing Islamophobe and Christian extremist, compared Muslims to Nazis, expressed contempt for multi-culturalism and religious tolerance, and strongly identified himself as a Christian conservative.

http://www.examiner.com/humanist-in-national/militant-christian-anders-breivk-wants-to-be-taken-seriously#ixzz1sUfY4OKo

Is anyone really going to argue that his religious beliefs played NO part in this horror at all? I seem to recall that when this story broke, many apologists here made that claim. What say you now?

[dmallind]

1. I'll save them the keystrokes

He's mentally ill.

It doesn't matter that he says it's religiously motivated, that he says he's a militant Christian, that he's functioned in society before going on his spree. It's all mental illness and nothing at all to do with what he perfectly cogently said himself that it's everything to do with.

I mean duh that's obvious.

[laconicsax]

4. His mental health hasn't been established.

He was found to be in control of his faculties during the rampage and it isn't clear if he suffers from paranoid schizophrenia, narcissistic disorder (psychopathy), or some other form of psychosis. What also isn't clear is whether any mental illness precipitated the rampage.

What seems to have happened is that an adult, who was never adjudicated incompetent, concluded that a massive act of violence would be the best vehicle to affect change.

This is the same reasoning behind the Islamist movement, it's the reasoning behind the neo-cons' desire for "another Pearl Harbor," etc. The shock of violence has been desired and used throughout history as a vehicle for obtaining a desired result.

To simply label someone as mentally ill without looking at what motivated them (or fed their illness) is intellectually dishonest.

[rug]

12. Read his manifesto and tell me he's not deranged.

http://www.kevinislaughter.com/wp-content/uploads/2083+-+A+European+Declaration+of+Independence.pdf

It's 1,518 pages long.

To simply label this man a militant Christian, presumably as evidence of the toxicity of Christianity, is lower than intellectual dishonesty.

[laconicsax]

13. Could you point me to the section on "deranged" in the DSM?

Did you miss the part where Breivik called himself a militant Christian? Maybe you should take your concerns over the label up with him.

[rug]

17. The DSM does not have a diagnosis for "insane" but that's where this is headed.

You must have missed the part where he calls himself a Templar. You must have missed his long passages about Nordic and European culture and Islamic invasion. Very Biblical. You must have missed have missed the part where he talks about being a cultutal Christian, a phrase quite familiar to Dawkins, and Christian atheism.

And I'm taking it up with you since it is you as well as the usual propagandists that are attempting to use this bizarre man and the deaths of these people to try to make some specious point about Christianity. I'm sure it's being done in the name of intellectual honesty.

[laconicsax]

18. In other words, you don't like what he says about himself, so you want to change the subject.

He calls himself a militant Christian, cites religious reasons for the vile things he's done, and has been adjudicated as sane.

No part of that is about me, cleanhippie, or any other atheists you're branding as "usual propagandists."

If you can't find it within yourself to discuss the facts and issues here, then I'll remind you that no one is making you participate in this thread.

[rug]

19. In other words, you say "STFU".

Ironic. This is not a little safe haven where bullshit is echoed, unchallenged.

I don't need you to put my words "in other words." They're quite plain. As any competent propagandist will do, you rephrase to erect a strawman to advance your preformed views.

Honest views do not need propaganda. Your attempt to use this incident to advance a greater view that it is a result of religious belief is as barren of a foundation as it is of honesty. No wonder you employ the tools of propaganda. That narrative needs it.

[laconicsax]

35. And once again, you try to make the discussion about me.

There's an H&M thread I'm reminded of.

Is there anything on the subject of the OP that you'd like to say or just more ranting about people on DU you don't like?

[rug]

38. I said it. Precisely. Despite your attempts to distort.

The rest of the remarks are directed squarely at the dishonesty of your posts. Don't try to hide behind "other people on DU".

[laconicsax]

39. Can you simply not quit me?

I'm not Anders Breivik. This thread is about him, not me. If you want to discuss me, maybe you should start a new thread rather than repeatedly try to hijack this one.

[rug]

43. Easily.

But, much as you may be disappointed, this is about the bullshit you posted about Anders Breivik, that clear headed individual, not you.

[laconicsax]

60. Which of the facts that I posted are "bullshit?"

The fact that he hasn't been adjudicated incompetent?

The fact that it hasn't been determined if any mental illness influenced his action?

The fact that he concluded that a massive act of violence was the best vehicle for affecting the change he wanted to see?

The fact that using violence and shock to affect change is use by the Islamist movement, neo cons, and numerous other individuals and groups throughout history?

The fact that opting to merely call someone insane without examining other potential factors is dishonest?

Your reply to my first comment merely called him "deranged" without examining other potential factors.

[mr blur]

63. What on earth would you know about "intellectual honesty"? nt

[rug]

64. Much more than the drek I've seen posted here.

Come, tell me how lucid he is and that these murders are the result of his deeply held religious beliefs.

Then climb back on your high horse and try to lecture me on intellectual honesty.

[Odin2005]

7. He's not mentally ill, he's just a bigot.

If he were psychotic he would have other symptoms besides just his bigoted beliefs.

[AlbertCat]

57. It doesn't matter that he says it's religiously motivated,

Yes.

Just like the 19 hijackers on 9/11 were all mentally ill and only political and religion had nothing to do with their acts either.

Right, "rug"?

[Starboard Tack]

2. I've seen you post some pretty ugly shit in the past

but you really out did yourself this time. Let's see how many apologists you get.

[cleanhippie]

3. Compared to the passive-aggressive shit you post, it's quite mild.

But thanks for that, your opinion means so very much to me.

[humblebum]

5. A "militant" of any persuasion is capable of carrying out horrendous acts, as you well know.nt

[2ndAmForComputers]

6. Well, well, we're making progress!

Now you admit that militant Christians are dangerous. Good for you!

[humblebum]

8. As well as "militant" atheists as history well proves. nt

[2ndAmForComputers]

9. It'll be a relief that only atheists who committed murder will be called "militant" from now on.

As I said, progress.

[humblebum]

10. And is that some new rule you just made up? Would be interesting

to know where you got your criteria. Since when does "militant" imply killing?

[2ndAmForComputers]

11. Am I not an atheist? Therefore, every statement by me is a lie. Including this one.

[humblebum]

14. You're being too hard on yourself. Atheists really can be very nice people

you know.

[2ndAmForComputers]

98. Like some of your best friends, huh?

[LeftishBrit]

16. You referred a moment ago to 'horrendous acts'

Do you consider that all outspoken atheists are bad people or militant in the sense of 'capable of horrendous acts'?

You seem to be using a false syllogism:

(1) Outspoken atheists, especially those who make use of their First Amendment right to free association ('organized atheists'), are/can be described as 'militant'.

(2) 'Militant' is sometimes used to describe fanatics who are prepared to commit horrendous acts.

(3) Outspoken atheists are by definition fanatics who are prepared to commit horrendous acts.


And yes, I think the OP was implying something similar about Christians (unless that was intended as a parody of anti-atheist views) - but that makes you both wrong, not both right.

[Starboard Tack]

65. Correct! Kinda like Stalin was dangerous.

Many whacked out individuals claim religious or atheistic beliefs as their driving force or part of their motivation for committing evil.

Stalin followed the position adopted by Lenin that religion was an opiate that needed to be removed in order to construct the ideal communist society. His government promoted atheism through special atheistic education in schools, anti-religious propaganda, the antireligious work of public institutions (Society of the Godless), discriminatory laws, and a terror campaign against religious believers. By the late 1930s it had become dangerous to be publicly associated with religion.

[darkstar3]

66. And with that you threw any credibility you had right out the window.

I've recognized your writing style for a while, now I know EXACTLY who you are...

[Starboard Tack]

67. Please enlighten me as to who I am oh Great One

[LeftishBrit]

15. I think he USED his religious beliefs in the cause of hatred

He hates Muslims and immigrants; hates the left for tolerating them; and has plenty of conspiracy theories, some of which involve religion.

Whether he is truly mentally ill, or a psychopath, or something in between the two is unclear; but I would say that in his case religion is subordinate to neo-Nazi-ism.

[struggle4progress]

20. Court in shock as gunman describes massacre

... His first two victims were Monica Boesei, a camp organiser, and off-duty police officer Trond Berntsen, a security guard. "My whole body tried to revolt when I took the weapon in my hand. There were 100 voices in my head saying, 'Don't do it, don't do it'."

But he did. He pointed his gun at Berntsen's head and pulled the trigger. He shot Boesei as she tried to run away. Then as they lay on the ground, he shot them both twice in the head.

Breivik said he could not remember large chunks of the approximately 90 minutes he spent on the island before surrendering to police commandos. Still, he recalled some of the shootings in great detail, including inside a cafe where he mowed down young victims as they pleaded for their lives ...

Breivik has admitted to setting off a bomb on July 22 in Oslo, killing eight people, before opening fire at the youth camp on Utoya island. But he has pleaded not guilty to criminal charges, saying his victims had betrayed Norway by embracing immigration ...

http://www.todayonline.com/Hotnews/EDC120422-0000019/Court-in-shock-as-gunman-describes-massacre

[struggle4progress]

21. Breivik's chilling account of massacre: 'I shot them all'

... His youngest victim that day had just celebrated his 14th birthday. He also explained that he ruled out "executing" the captain and crew of the ferry that transported him to the island, since he did not know if they were linked to his target, the ruling Labour Party, which he blames for introducing generous immigration laws and thereby allowing a "Muslim invasion" of Norway ...

http://www.sundaytimes.lk/120422/Timestwo/int05.html

[struggle4progress]

22. Breivik Back in Court, Day Five of Trial

... Breivik is on trial for killing eight people with a car bomb at government headquarters in Oslo, then gunning down 69 people, most of them teenagers, at a Labour Party summer youth camp on Utoeya island.

During Thursday's testimony, Breivik said he had considered bombing the annual May 1 parade in Oslo, a Labour Party convention and a conference of journalists, but opted for a new plan after the bomb-making took too long.

Although he pleaded not guilty, he admitted to the killings, saying his victims were traitors who supported immigration and multiculturalism, threatening Norwegian ethnic purity.

Breivik's trial, set to last 10 weeks, turns on the question of his sanity and thus whether he will be jailed or detained in a psychiatric institution.

http://english.ntdtv.com/ntdtv_en/news_europe/2012-04-21/breivik-back-in-court-day-five-of-trial.html

[struggle4progress]

23. ... “I am a very likeable person under normal conditions,” he told the court. He said he spent years

deliberately dehumanising himself to prepare for the slaughter ...
Norway gunman Anders Breivik's grisly account traumatises court
By Tony Paterson
Saturday, 21 April 2012
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/world-news/norway-gunman-anders-breiviks-grisly-account-traumatises-court-16148110.html

[struggle4progress]

30. This one smells much like that famous line from Capote's "In Cold Blood" --

... “I didn’t want to harm the man. I thought he was a very nice gentleman. Soft-spoken. I thought so right up to the moment I cut his throat” ...

[laconicsax]

37. "Deliberately dehumanizing himself"

Expecting something to be traumatic and taking deliberate steps to prepare oneself mentally and emotionally definitely sounds like a clear-headed individual.

[rug]

40. Lol! "a clear-headed individual"!

Since you're not going to read his manifesto, here's a simple word cloud for you.

[AlbertCat]

58. Word cloud...

Hmmmmmm....

Looks to me like religion has a huge role to play. Three of the 4 largest words are religions.


You are aware that Muslim and Islam are religions, right?

[laconicsax]

61. Yes. Clear-headed.

He knew what he was doing,what the results of his actions would be, and took deliberate steps to reduce or eliminate potential difficulties, including the possibility that his own actions would sicken him too much to carry them out.

That is the description of someone who is coherent and thinking clearly.

[darkstar3]

42. I'd certainly call that a sickening level of pre-meditation.

[rug]

44. His mind is clear as crystal

meth.

[darkstar3]

46. He knew exactly what he was doing,

why he was doing it, and what the consequences would be. He made a conscious decision to follow the path he had chosen in spite of all of that, and with no interference whatsoever from "voices", imagined or supernatural.

His hate was strong, and difficult for people to understand, but at no time was he unclear on what he was doing, who it would hurt, what would happen afterward, or why he felt it was the right choice.

Your deflection here has no basis in reality.

[rug]

48. You do realize his diagnosis, don't you?

(BTW, the presence of premeditation has little to do with many forms of the insanity defense. It's a common misunderstanding.)

[darkstar3]

49. As I understand it, there hasn't been a diagnosis yet. That's being worked on.

[rug]

51. There has. The prosecution is disputing it with their own psychiatrists.

"Norway massacre: Breivik declared insane"

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-15936276

[darkstar3]

53. "Their report must still be reviewed by a panel of forensic psychiatrists."

[Dorian Gray]

55. Psychopaths

can work with clear heads. They're still fucked up as all hell, though.

I don't care what his motivations were, the guy is sick in the head. Anybody who wants to do this is sick.

Personality Disorders may not be classified as traditional mental illnesses, but the person who suffers from them is emotionally sick and unstable.

[LeftishBrit]

80. This does not mean that there is not a form of mental illness involved

Premeditation and planning do not exclude mental illness. Many seriously mentally ill people have specific delusions about the world. They don't necessarily have an inability to perceive reality in other domains. They are not necessarily unable to manage their daily lives - until something happens that is related to the delusion. They don't necessarily have hallucinations; and even if they do, they don't necessarily have them all the time. They may seem quite 'normal' until something comes up that relates to their delusion - e.g. that people are trying to poison them, or that the government are spying on them through their television set, or that slight internet acquaintances in another country are video-ing their actions, etc.

I do not know whether Breivik has such an illness, and even if he does, it does not excuse his actions: most mentally ill people do not go on killing sprees! But his actions are mainly based on extreme forms of prejudice against 'out-groups', including the religious out-group of Muslims, and do not seem to me to be based on Christianity more broadly.

[Dorian Gray]

95. I think also

that Psychopaths, Sociopaths, and Personality Disorders are not traditionally listed as Mental Illness, per se. I believe that there are continuing discussions about this in the psychological world. But they are disordered thinking, and as a layperson, I would consider a Psychopath as mentally ill, even if he were capable of logically planning and executing a plan based upon such a disordered view of the world.

[AlbertCat]

59. His mind is clear as crystal

The role of religion in his mind is crystal clear.

[struggle4progress]

24. Anders Behring Breivik trial, day five - Friday 20 April

... The defendant told the court he would not have gone to Utøya if the bomb attack on the government quarter had caused the building to collapse. Breivik claimed that if he had perceived the bombing to be a success, he would have driven to the police station and surrendered. The bomb killed eight people.

Breivik denied having contact with the English Defence League (EDL), the anti-Islamist network formed in Britain in 2009. He admitted he had posted on internet forums "linked to the EDL" and had traded messages with an EDL member on one such website. But he insisted: "I have never had contact with the English Defence League." Previously, Breivik has written of having strong links with the EDL, saying he had met its leaders and had 600 EDL members as Facebook friends ...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/apr/20/anders-behring-breivik-trial-live

[struggle4progress]

25. Remorseless and baffling, Breivik's testimony leaves Norway no wiser

... In a pre-prepared statement, which the court allowed him to read out for more than an hour – a highly unusual concession granted only because he refused to give evidence at all otherwise – he insisted it was "goodness, not evil" that had prompted him to act in order to prevent a "major civil war".

The persona that emerged during day two of Breivik's 10-week trial was a rambling, repetitive obsessive, fixated on a threat he never truly managed to articulate, but which involved "cultural Marxists", whom he claimed had destroyed Norway by using it as "a dumping ground for the surplus births of the third world".

Norwegians would be a minority in their own capital city within five to 10 years, he said, and he blamed liberal politicians for bringing about Norway's demise by allowing immigration as well as "feminism, quotas … transforming the church, schools" ...

His targets were not random. The young people he shot dead on the island of Utøya during a Norwegian Labour party summer camp, some of them as young as 14, were "not innocent, non-political children", he said. "These were young people who worked to actively uphold multicultural values. Many had leading positions in leading Labour party youth wings." ...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/apr/17/breivik-court-boasts-killing-utoya?INTCMP=ILCNETTXT3487

[struggle4progress]

26. Breivik: Voices in my head said, 'Don't do this'

... "I thought 'It's now or never,'" said a red-faced but composed Breivik, referring to his thoughts before taking his first victim. "A hundred voices in my head said, 'Don’t do this.'"

He said his intention was to kill not just the 69 who did die on the island that day, mostly from shooting, but all of the camp attendees by frightening them into fleeing into the water to drown. He said he didn’t understand why some "just stood there" and tried to scare them into attempting to swim away by shouting a "psychological cry" twice in the campsite area: "You shall die today, Marxists." ...

He said he felt that the "Marxist" media feared that if they covered the events, the far-right Progress Party — an anti-immigration party of which he was a member — would have gained more votes, upending the Labor-led coalition government. Breivik has blamed his attacks on the Labor party for promoting multiculturalism and the "ethnic cleansing" of indigenous Norwegian with its immigration policies, which have allowed many Muslim immigrants into the country.

"If the media had given the Progress Party a fair chance without demonizing them before an election, then I wouldn’t have carried out the attacks," Breivik told defense attorney Vibeke Hein Baera ...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/47119059/ns/world_news-christian_science_monitor/

[struggle4progress]

27. ... He told his trial that his original plan was to kill “all 564” who were on Utoeya Island ...

The Irish Times - Saturday, April 21, 2012
Breivik gives chilling detail of island shootings
AUDREY ANDERSEN in Oslo
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/world/2012/0421/1224315007242.html

[struggle4progress]

28. ... He boasts of being an ultranationalist who killed his victims to fight multiculturalism ...

Breivik gives chilling account of massacre
Admitted killer gives new details about Norway's Utoya Island murders
Author: By the CNN Wire Staff
Published On: Apr 20 2012 05:42:09 AM EDT
Updated On: Apr 20 2012 07:09:30 PM EDT
http://www.clickorlando.com/news/Breivik-gives-chilling-account-of-massacre/-/1637132/11226482/-/846q14z/-/

[struggle4progress]

29. ... The main aim of the trial ... is to decide if Breivik is sane or insane ...

Breivik stuns court as he recounts his killing spree
http://www.thisiscornwall.co.uk/Breivik-stuns-court-recounts-killing-spree/story-15874657-detail/story.html

[struggle4progress]

31. ... Why? Breivik's lengthy response to that question has been as eloquent as it has been

incomprehensible: he sees himself as a militant nationalist "knight" heroically fighting to defend "ethnic Norwegians" from being wiped out by a "Muslim invasion" caused by the Labour government's generous immigration policies ...
Breivik in court: courteous, coherent and cold-blooded
Posted on 21 April 2012 - 05:32am
http://www.thesundaily.my/news/355942

[Dorian Gray]

56. Thank you for all the articles and links

It's horrifying (but interesting) reading.

[struggle4progress]

32. Breivik's Defense: Danish Immigration Law?

By Gabe Kahn
First Publish: 4/20/2012, 2:11 PM

Norwegian mass murderer Anders Behring Breivik told an Oslo court Friday that if Norway had adopted a “Danish level” of cultural and immigration policies, he would never have committed his massacre ... During his testimony, Breivik pointed to the outcome of the 2009 elections in Norway as motivation for his attacks ... He blamed the 2009 election results on the media, saying reporters had not adequately covered immigrant-related violence in France and Sweden because the media actively supports "the notion of multiculturalism" ...

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/154961

[struggle4progress]

33. ... Sky News journalist Trygve Sorvaag, live-tweeting the trial of Anders Behring Breivik - the man

who admitted to the killing of 77 people in the attacks in Norway last year - reported the following quote from Breivik on Thursday: "I think it's horrible having to do these actions to get my message out. Blame journalists who stop him spreading his message. #Breivik" ...

A comprehensive round-up of the ethical issues journalists are having to consider in the reporting of the Anders Behring Breivik trial
Posted: 20 April 2012 By: Tabby Kinder
http://www.journalism.co.uk/news-features/reporting-the-anders-breivik-trial/s5/a548869/

[struggle4progress]

34. Breivik says he planned to behead former PM

... Breivik later spoke animatedly about the elaborate military preparations for his “gruesome but necessary” terror attacks.

He said he had practised shooting by playing the computer games Call of Duty: Modern Warfare and World of Warcraft. He said they were good tactical tools, especially for “target acquisitions”.

In 2006 he moved in with his mother to save money and rarely interrupted his game of World of Warcraft, even though his mother became anxious. “During that year I played perhaps 16 hours a day. It was a lot. Only playing for an entire year – playing and sleeping, playing and sleeping . . . It was a dream I had, and I wanted to do this.” ...

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/world/2012/0420/1224314968878.html

[darkstar3]

36. I think you struck a nerve.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

41. And that struck nerve seems to have caused

a painful bout of diarrhea.

[rug]

45. Sorry to hear that.

This may help.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

50. Hey doc, what would you suggest I do about

this terrible pain I have in my ass?

[rug]

52. Remove your head.

[kwassa]

54. LOL!

[EvolveOrConvolve]

62. Shit, I walked into that one

Touche, rug, touche.

[darkstar3]

47. I count two of them.

[LARED]

68. Well of course his religious beliefs played a part in this atrocity

But of course outside of himself and perhaps a handful of other wacko extremists, no one really believes his religious beliefs represent Christian thought or ideology. No one within Christendom is defending his ideology.

And as usual those facts are no impediment to your sophomoric games.

[darkstar3]

69. "It's OK, I don't claim him."

Fallacy is comedy.

[LARED]

70. The point is no one claims him,

yet there are those that insist upon sticking Christianity with him.

What's interesting to me is when 19 Muslim hijackers killed 3000 people on 9/11, I do not recall seeing any on this board trying to stick Islam with them. Yet when a lunatic kills 77 claiming to be Christian, it seems fair game to attach to Christianity.

[laconicsax]

71. Is it possible you don't recall how DU responded to 9/11 is because you hadn't joined yet.

[darkstar3]

73. I noticed that too...

[LARED]

74. I've been a member since 2002 and spend considerable time

on the various 9/11 boards over the years.

[laconicsax]

78. I'll take that as a "yes"

9/11 was in 2001.

[darkstar3]

72. The point is that your point is fallacious,

and your claim about 2001 doesn't amount to a hill of beans. You are invoking the "No True Scotsman" fallacy, and that means that your argument doesn't hold water.

[LARED]

76. That's nonsense

So according to you anyone claiming to be Christian is in fact Christian no matter what unChristian actions they take in the name of Christianity.

If that's the case I am going to start claiming to be an atheist just so I can join the club.

[darkstar3]

77. Can you provide a definition for "Christian" that is globally accepted by all Christians?

I can provide one for "atheist" that is globally accepted by all atheists...

[LARED]

81. Please do provide a globally accepted definition of atheist. nt

[darkstar3]

82. Someone who holds no belief in any gods. Your turn.

[LARED]

101. Surely you are incorrect

I have decided to call myself an atheist and have even started writing a lengthy manifesto explaining my beliefs in a supernatural quantum Deity called "Q" that proves there is no God (as your limited intellect can understand God).

The bottom line is I'm an atheist and your position that no true atheist can hold such beliefs is simply a fallacy.

[prefunk]

102. If Theism is defined as "Belief in the existence of a god or gods..."

the·ism (thzm) n. Belief in the existence of a god or gods, especially belief in a personal God as creator and ruler of the world.


The atheism is simply the opposite,


a·the·ist (th-st) n. One who disbelieves or denies the existence of God or gods.

And disbelief is defined as...

dis·be·lief (dsb-lf) n. Refusal or reluctance to believe.


So by definition, an atheist is without belief while the theist is with belief.

If you "believe" in a deity (in this case, its "Q&quot then you would be a theist, by definition.

[darkstar3]

103. You contradict yourself.

The most basic, most universally accepted definition of "atheism" is what I posted above. Your statement of belief is exactly the opposite, which puts you in the theism camp.

Now that your little diversion has been dealt with, would you care to offer a definition of Christian that has such universal acceptance? You know, like I asked for in the first place...I've put up mine, now you put up yours, and we'll go from there.

I say this because words require a certain level of precision and global acceptance if they are to be used in a conversation. If I say the word "earth" or "sky" to anyone who speaks English, there is no ambiguity in what I mean. So if you take issue with the way the word Christian is being used in this thread, then provide a simpler and better definition. Once we can all agree upon the definition of the words we are using, we can be more precise.

[LARED]

104. Even though you view me as contradicting myself

As an atheist you must claim me a part of your belief system no matter how I act or what I say as I CLEARLY have stated I am an atheist, The problem is your limited understanding of my atheism not what the world thinks an atheist is supposed to believe.

Your other option is to drop the silly lumping in of lunatics with Christians using some "no true Scotsman absolutism" just because they claim to be such. It's intellectually dishonest and you know it.

Until then I have a lot of work to do spreading the new Atheist model as "Q" is a demanding non god and needs cash.

[darkstar3]

105. False, and you know it.

You see, until you can post a definition of Christian that is as universally understood and accepted as the definition of atheist that I posted above, you haven't a leg to stand on. I refer you back to #103 for further explanation. You can try to dodge it all you want, but the fact is that we need that definition before we can continue this conversation. You can either provide it, or admit that you cannot and realize that you're SOL.

[humblebum]

83. So then, you are saying that all atheists are alike?

that's a switch. And a stretch.

[eqfan592]

84. It surely would be, if that is what was said.

Which, of course, it wasn't.

[humblebum]

85. Obviously they are all alike in at least one respect by the definition given.

But then again that would require that all agree on the definition of "gods." Are spirits "gods?"

[eqfan592]

86. No, they aren't, at least not by any deifinition I have ever seen.

.

Spirit
1.
a. The vital principle or animating force within living beings.
b. Incorporeal consciousness.
2. The soul, considered as departing from the body of a person at death.
3. Spirit The Holy Spirit.
4. A supernatural being, as:
a. An angel or a demon.
b. A being inhabiting or embodying a particular place, object, or natural phenomenon.
c. A fairy or sprite.
5.
a. The part of a human associated with the mind, will, and feelings: Though unable to join us today, they are with us in spirit.
b. The essential nature of a person or group.
6. A person as characterized by a stated quality: He is a proud spirit.
7.
a. An inclination or tendency of a specified kind: Her actions show a generous spirit.
b. A causative, activating, or essential principle: The couple's engagement was announced in a joyous spirit.
8. spirits A mood or an emotional state: The guests were in high spirits. His sour spirits put a damper on the gathering.
9. A particular mood or an emotional state characterized by vigor and animation: sang with spirit.
10. Strong loyalty or dedication: team spirit.
11. The predominant mood of an occasion or a period: "The spirit of 1776 is not dead" (Thomas Jefferson).
12. The actual though unstated sense or significance of something: the spirit of the law.
13. An alcohol solution of an essential or volatile substance. Often used in the plural with a singular verb.
14. spirits An alcoholic beverage, especially distilled liquor.
tr.v. spir·it·ed, spir·it·ing, spir·its
1. To carry off mysteriously or secretly: The documents had been spirited away.
2. To impart courage, animation, or determination to; inspirit.

God
? ?[god]
noun
1.
the one Supreme Being, the creator and ruler of the universe.
2.
the Supreme Being considered with reference to a particular attribute: the God of Islam.
3.
( lowercase ) one of several deities, especially a male deity, presiding over some portion of worldly affairs.
4.
( often lowercase ) a supreme being according to some particular conception: the god of mercy.
5.
Christian Science . the Supreme Being, understood as Life, Truth, love, Mind, Soul, Spirit, Principle.

Outside of both having various supernatural meanings, there does not appear to be much overlap (outside of The Holy Spirit, which being part of the triune god doesn't fall under the definition you were seeking I think).

And besides, even if there were, your point would still fail to counter the overriding point being discussed.

[humblebum]

87. If the "globally accepted definition of atheist" is

"Someone who holds no belief in any gods," then obviously all are alike in that respect.

And I am am glad you have such a handle on the supernatural. Unusual for an atheist.

[eqfan592]

88. Yes, indeed they are alike IN THAT RESPECT.

In fact, that was the entire point to begin with. YOUR statement that "all atheists are alike" was far more general, but now you've changed your tune, so we no longer have any disagreement on this particular issue.

[humblebum]

89. I have changed nothing. But you certainly have. From no to yes.

So then. Are agnostics considered to be atheists? Is there a global consensus on that too?

[eqfan592]

90. LOL! Yeah, sure you didn't.

You attempted to twist a specific claim into a general one, and you got called out on it, and now you're just flailing around the issue.



Never in my life have I found an image that was more regularly useful and appropriate.

I'd answer your agnostics question if I thought you were one bit interested in an honest discussion on the topic.

[humblebum]

91. The only one flailing, spitting, making a fuss is you.

I changed nothing. It is still true that they are all alike, even if only in that one respect. And you haven't answered my second question. It's called avoidance.

[eqfan592]

92. See post 90.

Goodnight!

[humblebum]

93. See post #91.

Good Night.

[eqfan592]

94. I saw it and was unimpressed. (nt)

[Dorian Gray]

96. I think that plenty of people

in the US, around the world, and even here at DU have condemned Islam throughout the years.

I do think it's a prejudicial thing to do, and we don't need to equivocate this atrocity with 9-11. They both were perpetrated by people who had delusions about the world and their place in it. They were probably influenced to a certain extent by religious beliefs that they were taught, but I believe that those beliefs were perverted through a disordered world view.

[struggle4progress]

75. Facts first, analysis second. According to Breivik's self-account: he became convinced

that Norway had -- through some collusion of the Labor Party with Marxists, Media, Multiculturalists, and Muslims -- become (for all practical purposes) a prison for him, especially because the media would not give his views adequate coverage; he therefore began to study bomb-making while spending sixteen hours a day playing videogames to steel himself for the work ahead, namely, blowing up buildings and killing a large number of people, so that his views would receive more media coverage; but bomb-making required too much time and energy, so Breivik decided that a youth-camp massacre would be a good addition to his plans for pushing himself onto the front page; he picked the Labor Party youth camp because he believed the Labor Party youth were multicultural traitors. He now regards his bombing and youth camp shooting spree as evidence of his own intrinisic goodness and his desire to save his country from civil war; he says his violence was necessary because the Marxist media feared had been unfair to his own rightwing anti-immigration party

[laconicsax]

79. That's a pretty good summary. n/t

[Dorian Gray]

97. Very good breakdown

[2ndAmForComputers]

99. Is it not a fact that Breivik said what the OP says he said?

"Later, Breivik described himself as a 'militant Christian' who believed in the afterlife."

[struggle4progress]

100. I glanced briefly at his manifesto last summer and decided I would not gain anything

from a close reading. The insistent rants of such cranks are often tedious, and so (unsurprisingly) the manifesto was tedious: it was full of nazi ideas and neo-nazi gambits, including the obligatory denial of nazi influence and nazi sympathies. Nothing that I read in it struck me as informative or even interesting, and so I see no reason to take any of it seriously -- the more so as he planned his massacres in the hopes of popularizing his crankish thoughts

If we can profit by studying seriously the great thinkers, it does not follow that we should study seriously the words of everyone: we remember the great thinkers precisely because their efforts have been exceptionally profitable to us. I do not think we can profit by studying seriously what this sad man may have uttered here or there