Religion
Related: About this forumShocked Liberals Discover Pope Is Actually...Catholic!
Heres a newsflash for liberals who first swooned over Pope Franciss U.S. visit, only to be stunned and dismayed by reports that he had met with Kim Davis at the Vatican Embassy before departing Washington on Thursday. Franciss statements and gestures of inclusiveness for immigrants and the homeless, his exhortations to save the environment and address income inequality, his kisses and blessings to disabled children, and his meeting with Davis are all consistent with his role as head of the Catholic Church.
In other words, to use an old cliché, the Pope is still Catholic.
Too many American progressives have pinned unrealistic hopes on Francis being a breath of fresh air, a new kind of Pope, a man of the people, a liberal, a magician who could not only singlehandedly reform a byzantine institution but miraculously quell the American culture wars with his winsome ways.
I cant count the number of times Ive heard progressives, even ardent secularists, sigh with admiration, I love that guy. Which is fine. There are things to love about him. But he is a religious leader of a religious institution whose framework for seeing the world defies contemporary American political categories. Hes not a liberal. Hes not a conservative. Hes a Catholic.
The catechism of the Catholic Church declares homosexual acts to be intrinsically disordered and contrary to natural law, even as it also states that men and women with deep-seated homosexual tendencies should be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Franciss actions have been consistent with this teaching, on the one hand opposing any change in Catholic doctrine on homosexuality, but on the other according gay peoplefor instance, Mo Roccasome basic respect.
Many of Franciss pronouncements are opaque, but it is hard not to see what he meant when, in his speech to Congress last week, he worried that fundamental relationships are being called into question, as is the very basis of marriage and the family. Sure, there are other issues that concern Catholics about the very basis of marriage, like pre- and extra-marital sex and divorce, but same-sex marriage is unquestionably part of that equation, too.
Francis also made pointed comments about religious freedom, the heart of the claim that Davis should be permitted to deny same-sex couples marriage licenses. He paid an unexpected visit to the Little Sisters of the Poor, the order of nuns that has engaged in protracted litigation with the Obama administration over whether signing a form exempting the group from providing contraception coverage violates their religious liberty. Francis also praised the American bishops, who have planted their feet firmly in the culture wars with campaigns to oppose LGBT and reproductive rights in the guise of religious freedom, for remind[ing] us all. . . to be vigilant. . . to preserve and defend [religious liberty] from everything that would threaten and compromise it.
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/cafe/liberals-shocked-saddened-that-pope-francis-meets-with-kim-davis
WHAT? Catholic doctrine and teachings are homophobic, misogynistic, and bigoted? REALLY? Wow, that's news!
Does that make all Catholics homophobic, misogynistic bigots? Hardly. But it should make one question why those Catholics who claim to be liberals continue to give time, money, and support to this homophobic, misogynistic, and bigoted organization. Maybe they themselves could answer that question for us. Just don't hold your breath.
rug
(82,333 posts)Maybe you yourself could answer that question for us.
Shall I hold my breath?
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)bigots?
Maybe you yourself could answer that question for us.
Shall I hold my breath?
rug
(82,333 posts)Or are you about to descend into your usual "you first" crap?
I know what your answer will be. Are you afraid to announce it?
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)But I need you to tell me if people that support homophobic, misogynistic and bigoted people and organizations are bigots or not.
But you won't do that, will you? Are you afraid to announce it?
rug
(82,333 posts)Since you assume the RCC is homophobic and misogynist, you therefore conclude that every, as in all, active Catholics are complicit in RCC bigotry and, perforce, are bigots.
So your answer is 100%.
amirite?
Don't be afraid to say so. It's important to do things that make you happy.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)Your bias is showing, and it's not pretty.
You have a nice day. I'm done with you.
Go on, feed your last-word compulsion. You know you have to. It will eat you up all day long if you don't.
Go on, show everyone reading your amount of self-control.
rug
(82,333 posts)I know you won't. Hence your attempt at escape with dignity. "I'm done with you."
You have a nice day, too.
Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)Why is it Rug? Why do you respond to people's questions with vicious attacks?
rug
(82,333 posts)BTW, the vote on the alert you made on my response to you in the other thread was 6-1 to keep it at 2:43 a.m.
Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)What are you hiding?
rug
(82,333 posts)Do you think this is fifth grade or DU?
Yorktown
(2,884 posts)Just like Islam where a solid X% muslims are normal decent people, despite a violent doctrine.
In the same way, Y% of Catholics are not homophobic, despite a twisted RCC doctrine.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)very actively proclaim a religion as their own actually believe that religion. If you expect people to assume you are not following your own faith, that's a very odd expectation. 'Well yes I tell people I'm an Orthodox Jew but why the fuck would they think I avoid eating pork? Are the bigots?'
Think about it. If a person says they are an atheist, do you not assume that they are? Why then should anyone assume that a member of any faith does not actually follow it, believe it or endorse it?
It makes no sense 'This is my faith but how dare you think I practice it'. Cake and eat it too.
rug
(82,333 posts)Its Cathechism does state that non-heterosexual orientation is a disorder. As did the DSM around the time the Catechism was being written.
It does not say that LGBT people are disordered, any more than any straight person engaging in sex (solo or otherwise) outside of marriage is considered to be engaging in moral disorder.
Calling a sexual orientation a disorder is offensive. As offensive now by the RCC as it was when it was the consensus of psychiatric boards.
But it never has condemned the people it considers to be engaging in sin.
Response to rug (Reply #9)
Lordquinton This message was self-deleted by its author.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)snooper2
(30,151 posts)gcomeau
(5,764 posts)The catechism of the Catholic Church declares homosexual acts to be intrinsically disordered and contrary to natural law, even as it also states that men and women with deep-seated homosexual tendencies should be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Franciss actions have been consistent with this teaching, on the one hand opposing any change in Catholic doctrine on homosexuality, but on the other according gay peoplefor instance, Mo Roccasome basic respect.
Translation: We'll deny you your human rights, but we'll smile nicely at you while we do it! Respect!
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)The hand-waving, the deflections, the willful ignorance to the actual problems caused by such awful doctrine...
One need not look far to find examples of such behavior. Oh, look, there's one right up there!
mr blur
(7,753 posts)Cognitive Dissonance, I guess. How else to explain it?
It makes them angry!
Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)struggle4progress
(118,330 posts)People who live in the real world often work with others, who don't completely share their views, by finding whatever common ground they can
Of course, this approach irritates the ideologues and the thought police, who cannot ever imagine how anyone could disagree with them