Catholics in prison

[Cartoonist]

I found this interesting, and long study.

http://www.humanreligions.info/violence_and_crime.html

If we accepted that conversion-in-prison explained why there were more Catholics in prison, it wouldn't account for why there were so many Catholics amongst the other categories mentioned by Smoker; drug addicts, alcoholics, compulsive gamblers, prostitutes and night club strippers. The final point she makes is that this prevalence undermines the Catholic idea that Catholic schools tend to produce a better class of moral person.

We are about to see below that one reason for the higher rates of sex crimes may be explained by Christian ideology; their teachings on human sexuality do not mesh with reality and the mental dissonance that results can cause distorted behaviour
-

Ain't that the truth?

[rug]

1. Vexen Crabtree is not a "she".

http://www.vexen.co.uk/vexen.html

I'd hesitate before jumping into this pond if I were you.

[Cartoonist]

3. Today's prize for deflection

And it's still early. I didn't make any gender claim.

[rug]

4. Pointing out a dubious source is not deflection.

And you did: "The final point she makes . . . ."

I'd hate for anyone to think a woman wrote this drek.

[Cartoonist]

5. Did not!

He did. The prize is still yours. You've got a lot of these trophies. I bet you keep them in the same place Trump keeps his Bibles.

[beam me up scottie]

8. *crickets*

That's all you'll hear when waiting for rug to admit he was wrong.

[cleanhippie]

9. Or a giant sucking sound...

created by the vacuum of his lighting-like exit from the conversation.

[rug]

10. The giant sucking sound usually comes from the person I'm replying to.

[beam me up scottie]

11. Lol!

[rug]

13. This is a reply.

[cleanhippie]

14. What kind of person farts, then tries to blame it on someone else?

Who does that?

Oh, well, I guess we can all see who does that.

[Angry Dragon]

42. rug has never been wrong

He gets his answers straight from his Bible

[rug]

12. I must have missed your highlighting of an excerpt.

Oh wait, there wasn't any.

Now, as to the source you posted?

[TexasProgresive]

2. What are the factors in addition to religious belief

to skew the numbers of incarcerated Catholics? One that comes to mind is that there are a lot of disadvantaged Hispanics are Catholic. When I visited the local jail and spent time in courtrooms the vast majority of detainees were Hispanic and African American (which would skew the Protestant population). I know that this is anecdotal but then the "study" you presented is guilty of logical fallacy as well The data analysis is too limited to give a complete picture. Just the fact that the majority of the U.S. population is Catholic and Protestant has to be taken in to consideration.

One or more of the following fallacies fit:
Garbled Cause & Effect
* Affirming the Consequent: Assuming there's only one explanation for something.
* Denying the Antecedent: Assuming that because there is a cause for something, the lack of the cause will result in the lack of the effect.
* Circular Logic: A conclusion derived from a premise based on the conclusion.
* Ignoring a Common Cause: Claiming two things that are correlated must be causal, while ignoring a third event that may have caused both.
* Cum Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc: Claiming two events that occur together must have a cause-and-effect relationship.
* Post Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc Claiming that because one event followed another, it was also caused by it.

[trotsky]

6. "the Catholic idea that Catholic schools tend to produce a better class of moral person."

That shit was undermined a long time ago.

[rug]

7. Surely you have a link for that quote.

I'll wait.

[Goblinmonger]

49. Never mind.

Didn't see this was necroed for some ridiculous reason. My bad.

[stone space]

15. Why?

[mr blur]

17. Why...what?

[Act_of_Reparation]

18. If I had to guess...

[stone space]

21. That's one theory. Of course, one could take a more empirical approach.

Instead of simply making up theories without evidence, one could make observations.

It's not like they refuse to tell us. One could listen to what they have to say. There is information out there.

One might still guess wrong, but at least the guess would be an informed guess based on empirical evidence gained through careful observation.

[Act_of_Reparation]

24. If it quacks like a duck, it could be a duck.

If it writes like it has just downed an eighth of rotgut, it could be drunk.

[stone space]

25. Do you believe that all 8 were drunk at the time?

The Hammer Has to Fall

Charlie King

My name is Daniel Berrigan, chaplan at a hospice for the dying.
I have seen the face of death. It is for life, I bring this hammer down.

My name is Molly Rush. I have six children, they deserve a future.
I strike this blow today for the children all the world around.

I hear the prophets' cry of hope ring through the prison wall.
We've waited thirty centuries to see that hammer fall.
If we think we've got thirty more, we cannot see at all.
For swords into plowshares, the hammer has to fall.

My name is Elmer Maas. Were this a peaceful world, I'd sit and play piano.
But lacking Nero's concience, I could not watch that fire devour the land.

My name is John Schuchardt. I am no stranger to the prison that awaits us.
But where genocide is legal, I stand an outlaw with a hammer in my hand.

I hear the prophets' cry of hope ring through the prison wall.
We've waited thirty centuries to see that hammer fall.
If we think we've got thirty more, we cannot see at all.
For swords into plowshares, the hammer has to fall.

Dean Hammer is my name. Mica and Isahia my tradition.
Oh, I tried to be their scholar, but could not escape their logic in the end.

My name is Philip Berrigan. In world war II I flew the bombing missions.
Now with every blow I strike today, I say the bombs will never fall again.

I hear the prophets' cry of hope ring through the prison wall.
We've waited thirty centuries to see that hammer fall.
If we think we've got thirty more, we cannot see at all.
For swords into plowshares, the hammer has to fall.

Carl Cabott is my name. I have lived and worked amoung the thirld world peoples.
I've seen corporations flourish, while the poor were left to fight for every breath.

My name is Anne Montgomery. My life spent in community with women.
I bring their healing power to this factory of of carnage and of death.

I hear the prophets' cry of hope ring through the prison wall.
We've waited thirty centuries to see that hammer fall.
If we think we've got thirty more, we cannot see at all.
For swords into plowshares, the hammer has to fall.

The hammer has to fall...

[stone space]

27. I'm not Catholic. I'm atheist. This thread is not about me.

I'm not talking about them.

I'm talking about you.

Did you reply to thus thread about Catholics by mistake?

Using this thread as a platform to personally insult atheists is a form of deflection, not to mention thread hijacking and trolling.

Please do try to stay on topic.

If you wish to start a thread about your negative perceptions of atheists, feel free to do so.

This thread is not about bashing atheists.

[Act_of_Reparation]

28. I'm not insulting atheists.

I'm not even insulting you, really. Intoxication would be far more flattering an explanation for your obstreperous behavior than the alternative.

[stone space]

29. You are trolling. I am not Catholic. This thread isn't about me. (nt)

[cleanhippie]

31. Are you ok? Your anti-gun obsession got you down?

Take a break, man. Seems you really need one.

[stone space]

38. This thread isn't about me. You are trolling.

Are you ok? Your anti-gun obsession got you down?

Take a break, man. Seems you really need one.

[stone space]

19. Why do they do it?

Released from prison, anti-nuclear activist nun Megan Rice speaks out


In an interview with Al Jazeera America, Rice reflects on prison life, Iran and the fight against nuclear weapons

June 4, 2015 7:00PM ET

by Lisa De Bode - @lisadebode | Google+

Megan Rice, an 85-year-old nun who broke into the Y-12 National Security Complex in Oak Ridge, Tennessee, in 2012, along with fellow anti-nuclear activists Michael Walli and Gregory Boertje-Obed, was charged with sabotage and damaging federal property and spent about two years in federal prison. They were released on May 16 after the 6th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals overturned their sabotage convictions while upholding their convictions for the less serious crime of injury to government property and ordering the original court to resentence them on the lesser crime. They don't regret their actions, and remain devoted to their cause. “We accomplished what we set out to do.” Walli said. In an interview with Al Jazeera America in Queens, New York, on June 3, Rice reflects on her work.

What did a typical day in prison look like?

I would start with my own personal meditation time, as of 4 a.m. in the morning. I would be free and everybody would still be asleep. Breakfast would begin to be served between 6:30 and 7a.m. I joined everybody for that. Not too many wanted to go to that breakfast, they would sleep through it. It was very quiet at that time. Some people, very few, would be ready to go to a job, mostly in laundry. Some would go and clean. There weren't enough jobs.

Did you have a job?

No, nobody ever asked me to.

What did you do?

I was writing letters, mostly, or reading, or composing, or reading the excellent articles that people would send, which was part of reading the letters, and responding. And it was possible to email from there. That was the only thing, we couldn’t be on the Internet, but we could receive and send emails. I was also meeting up with people, wanting to talk about personal problems, spiritual matters or their cases.

If we can go back to the moment when you broke into the Y-12 facility …

We don’t use the word “break in” because we didn’t break in. We entered the Y-12 facility, legally. And I’d just like to make the statement that all citizens are required to expose and oppose known crimes, equally responsible, according to their ability, and according to their situation. And we had known well of the crime of nuclear weapons, and we knew what was happening at Y-12, so we entered Y-12 through illegal fences, built for an illegal project, and therefore we had to enter in the way we could, others might enter through various other ways, but we found ourselves unable and we had waited so many years to do this, not consciously knowing but feeling it should be done. So we easily entered the base, in a very simple way, taking no time to cut a little slit that was very neat and to crawl through uninhibited, the four fences, the last three in about 15 minutes.

So when you entered that facility, and you got arrested, what went through your mind?

Thank goodness, we're able to expose and oppose a known crime, in a very short period of time, in the most comprehensive way, that we could think about, which was using symbols, we labeled the building, and we suggested the effects of this building.

How do you look back on your action?

With great satisfaction. We did what we had planned to do, and we never dreamed we could ever do that.

What has resulted from that?

Well, obviously, it was misinterpreted as revealing a breach in the security system. And it is the breach of the security of the planet itself, so they’ve just attributed their crime to us.

What happens next? For you, for the anti-nuclear cause?

I’m not any more involved in this than any other human being in the world, I just happen to be able to at this point to be consciously involved in it because I’m not having children or grandchildren, being in a retired state, and yet having very good health.

But you'll continue your activism?

Certainly, as long as I live. As long as it exists it's going to be a focus, as it is for everybody.

snip-------------------------

http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2015/6/4/megan-rice-interview1.html

[Act_of_Reparation]

20. I dunno, Goats.

Maybe it is because they're decent people who would still be decent people even if they weren't Catholic?

[stone space]

22. Goats is another theory, I suppose.

We can all come up with our own pet theories.

Some think it's alcohol, some think it's goats, and some think it's space aliens.

But there is a different approach, which involves careful observation of the empirical evidence.

Might still guess wrong, but at least the guesses would be informed guesses.

[Act_of_Reparation]

23. Whoops.

Looks like you've made a mistake again. Go back and re-read the post.

I know words can be difficult for you numbers people, but seriously. You're embarrassing yourself.

[stone space]

32. Is there a reason why you are resorting to personal insults?

That one is definitely not the sharpest tool in the shed.

Some might say two sandwiches shy of a picnic.

[cleanhippie]

33. Is there a reason your responses are so obtuse, confused, and incoherent?

[stone space]

34. Please stop insulting me.

Is there a reason your responses are so obtuse, confused, and incoherent?

I haven't insulted you.

Why are you doing this?

[stone space]

39. There is no need for totally unprovoked personal insults.

dont be an asshole.

That will fix most everything

This thread isn't about me.

I'm not even Catholic.

[cleanhippie]

35. Sorry you got locked out of the thread. Your hidden reply is there for all to see, so....

You just said what everyone else was thinking.

[stone space]

37. The hidden post was a totally unprovoked personal insult.

Sorry you got locked out of the thread. Your hidden reply is there for all to see, so....

You just said what everyone else was thinking.

I don't understand why you are doing this.

[Phlem]

40. wow.

your definetly on ignore.

[stone space]

41. I didn't even know that you could post to somebody you have on ignore.

How did you manage to do that?

[Lordquinton]

43. Why did you necropost this?

[stone space]

44. Yes, sadly, one of the participants did pass away reciently.

Why did you necropost this?

May he rest in peace.

[Lordquinton]

45. That has nothing to do with the OP

Misclick?

[stone space]

46. The thread is about Catholics in Prison.

That has nothing to do with the OP

[Lordquinton]

47. So do they represent the majority?

Do those 8 outweigh the 800+ priests and other members of the clergy that abused kids talked about in this other thread? http://www.democraticunderground.com/1218228129

Could you have posted this in a current thread rather than one from almost a year ago?

For the inevitable jury, please read thoroughly before passing judgment.

[stone space]

48. I don't know what you mean.

What does it mean for some folks to outweigh other folks?

I guess that I don't think of human beings in those terms.

I knew some of the folks from the Plowshares 8 Action, and from other actions. I've spent time in jail with a some of them.

I don't usually think in terms of whether folks I know are outweighed by other folks.

I don't even know what that means.

We're talking about human beings here.

You seem to want me to minimize my friends, to say that their lives are unimportant.

I won't do that.

I'm not complaining about you mentioning your friends, am I?

I'm not trying to discount their lives.

Please don't try to discount the lives of my friends.

Your tax dollars and mine paid for the prison cells that held them.

I don't see how we can then turn around and say that they are not relevant to a thread about Catholics in Prison.

Of course they are relevant.

[Lordquinton]

51. You keep firing from the hip here

You do know this thread is about criminals, not protestors, right? How do your friends tie into the disproportionate amount of Catholics in jail? And remember you brought them into this thread nearly a year after it was ended.

[stone space]

52. It is about Catholics in Prison.

When we stop imprisoning Catholics for practicing their religion, then perhaps the subject will die down.

Obviously, you are interested in the topic or you wouldn't be posting here.

[Lordquinton]

53. So every Catholic imprisoned is because of their religion?

That seems like a half cocked idea.

You're the one who necroposted and is attacking anyone who asks why you did it. So finish the clip and tell us how this actually relates, because you're missing the target.

[stone space]

54. Well, of course, I didn't say that. Not sure where you got the word, "every".

But from the point of view of many of those who I did post, it is exactly that.

I'm not sure where you see an attack.

I didn't mean to make you feel like you were under attack.

I think we are just discussing the topic of this thread, that's all.

It's ok if we disagree on something.

That happens from time to time in human society when adults discuss things like this.

[Lordquinton]

55. You're still off the mark

I don't think you really understand the thread you dredged up from almost a year ago, you should readjust your sights and be clearer with what you're saying, cause you did imply that Catholics are imprisoned because of their beliefs.

[mr blur]

56. The Faitheism is strong with this one.

[stone space]

57. Please refrain from name-calling.

We can discuss things without personal insults, can't we?

[trotsky]

60. I dunno, can we?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=313825&sub=trans

[stone space]

64. Well, yeah. I have called Zimmerman a "cold-blooded murderer" before, that's true.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=313825&sub=trans

More than once, in fact.

And I have had my posts hidden by Zimmerman supporters here at DU as a result.

But not in this thread.

This thread is about Catholics in Prison.

According to Wikipedia, Zimmerman is indeed Catholic.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Zimmerman

But he's not in jail, yet, unfortunately, so I'm not sure why you are bringing George Zimmerman and my attacks on him up here in this thread.

I'm not Catholic, and Zimmerman is not in prison, so it's a little off-topic.

Neither me nor Zimmerman is a topic of discussion here in this thread.

[trotsky]

65. You admonished someone else to "refrain from name-calling."

I think your hidden posts are a good indicator as to how seriously you should be taken when it comes to calls for civility.

[stone space]

67. What does my calling Zimmerman a cold-blooded murder have to do with this thread?

You admonished someone else to "refrain from name-calling."

I think your hidden posts are a good indicator as to how seriously you should be taken when it comes to calls for civility.

This thread is not about me.

This is starting to look like trolling.

Please stop.

[trotsky]

68. People are free to look at all your hidden posts and decide for themselves, thankfully.

But I don't think you should accuse anyone else of trolling. That's very disruptive.

[stone space]

70. Please stop trying to make this thread about me.

Why are you doing this?

This thread isn't about me.

It really isn't.

Please stop.

[trotsky]

72. Then stop accusing others of name-calling.

Please stop.

[stone space]

58. The thread is about Catholics in Prison.

Last edited Wed May 4, 2016, 10:24 AM - Edit history (2)

I think we all understand that.

Folks whose interests don't extend beyond the latest fad of the last 5 minutes are not likely to respond to this thread, anyway.

Folks interested in discussing enduring issues may respond just like we are, if the topic interests them as much as it interests you and I.

[Lordquinton]

59. What are your views on the article in question?

This thread is about a specific topic, not one you can just shoot off with any associations that come to mind. It's a higher caliber thread than that.

[stone space]

61. In my view, a lot of the catholics I've met in jail are good caring decent people.

What are your views on the article in question?

What's been your experience?

It's a higher caliber thread than that.

I agree.

Hopefully it won't get derailed by petty personal attacks and insults.

It certainly doesn't deserve that.

It's a topic that deserves to be discussed with civility.

[trotsky]

62. How many Catholics did you meet while you were in jail? n/t

[stone space]

63. I don't really know the number. How about you?

How many Catholics did you meet while you were in jail? n/t

How many Catholics have you met in jail?

[trotsky]

66. You claimed you met "a lot" of them while you were in jail.

Since you don't know a number, your anecdotal evidence from your time in jail really doesn't mean anything, it would seem.

[stone space]

69. I think that all of our personal experiences with the subject of this thread matters here.

Since you don't know a number, your anecdotal evidence from your time in jail really doesn't mean anything, it would seem.

I'll be the first in line here to say that your own lived personal experience matters.

Mine is no different.

This is a forum in which we discuss things, in this case, Catholics in Prison.

It is not a forum in which we insult other posters by discounting the lived personal experiences of others as "not meaning anything".

If we all discuss this issue together without discounting each others lived personal experiences as "not meaning anything", then we can all come away from this discussion having gained some wisdom.

[trotsky]

71. Is that really the only tool you have in your rhetorical toolbox?

However many Catholics you met while you were in jail, it doesn't do a thing to dispute real statistics. Sorry to disappoint you.

[rug]

73. Why don't you stop meta-harassing another DUer in this zombie thread?

[struggle4progress]

16. ... The Pharisees asked his disciples, “Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors

and sinners?” But when Jesus heard about this, he said, “It is not the healthy people who need a doctor, but sick people. Go learn what the scripture means: I want mercy and not sacrifice. For I didn’t come to minister to the righteous but to the sinners” ... Matthew 9

... Jesus said to them, “I tell you: the tax collectors and prostitutes will enter God’s kingdom ahead of you. John came by the righteous road, and you didn’t believe him -- but tax collectors and prostitutes believed him. And even after you saw this, you didn’t change your hearts” ... Matthew 21

[LiberalAndProud]

50. Doctors are supposed to help make people well.

But a belief system that teaches that you are born broken and then commands you to be well... The results speak for themselves.