Religion
Related: About this forumThe Surprising Religious Breakdown Of Same-Sex Marriage Support
http://thinkprogress.org/lgbt/2015/04/22/3649935/poll-american-muslims-supportive-sex-marriage-white-evangelical-christians/BY JACK JENKINS POSTED ON APRIL 22, 2015 AT 12:03 PM
CREDIT: AP
A new poll released this week found that the majority of most major religious groups now fully embrace marriage equality, and that even groups who oppose the right to marry are abandoning anti-LGBT views at a surprising rate.
On Wednesday, the Public Religion Research Institute (PRRI) unveiled new data from their American Values Atlas, a survey conducted last year that interviewed 40,000 people across the country. In expectation of next weeks U.S. Supreme Court case on same-sex marriage, PRRI published a list of religious perspectives on marriage equality, reporting that the majority of Catholics (60 percent), white mainline Protestants (62 percent), and Jewish Americans (77 percent) either favor or strongly favor legal recognition of marriages for LGBT couples.
A decade ago, the most supportive religious groups were white mainline Protestants and Catholics, with 36 percent and 35 percent support, respectively, Robert Jones, CEO of PRRI, wrote in a blog post. Today, major religious groups reside on both sides of this issue and within many key groupssuch as Catholicssupport among rank and file members is now at odds with official church opposition.
CREDIT: DYLAN PETROHILOS/THINKPROGRESS
But while other polling organizations have reported similar findings about these groups in the past, PRRI also included several religious communities typically left off of other surveys with some surprising results. American Muslims and white evangelical Protestants, for instance, both oppose same-sex marriage in the survey, but with a key difference: a full 42 percent of Muslims told PRRI they support marriage equality, while only 28 percent of white evangelicals said the same. In addition, 56 percent of Orthodox Christians gave a thumbs up to the right to marry, as did 84 percent of Buddhists and 55 percent of Hindus.
more at link
NYC_SKP
(68,644 posts)Buddhists, of course, and encouraged by the number for Muslims.
I'll admit I'm not sure what features characterize White Evangelical Christians, differentiate them from, say, Baptists. Any help is appreciated!
Now back to my first reaction:
cbayer
(146,218 posts)Unlike the baptists, they don't have a central organization, but tend to be more independent.
They can be progressive on some matters. For example, there are evangelical groups that are making environmental concerns a priority.
But when it comes to social issues, they tend to be quite conservative, as this data shows.
Love your carrot man!
okasha
(11,573 posts)Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)If accurate (I know nothing about this polling org), it's a great poll.
Next step is how to get the actual religious organizations that these people belong to to start accurately reflecting the beliefs of the members and, probably more importantly to me, get those religious organizations to stop forcing legislation on a society when that legislation goes against the majority of it's members' beliefs.
Just take a look at Wednesday's statement by the Pope. Over 60% over US Catholics support same-sex marriage. That's awesome. Their Pope doesn't, and the RCC activity lobbies to keep same-sex marriage illegal. How is that not problematic for the 60% that disagree with him.
okasha
(11,573 posts)Not all of it, yet, but even the AFA and its ilk seem to think SCOTUS will make it so. There'll be all hell to pay if the court doesn't.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)How?
Will the SCOTUS justices lose their next election? Oh that's right, they aren't elected.
Things will continue to improve with time, I don't think we can ever go back to 20 years ago with DOMA, but I don't think the fight is anywhere near over yet. We cannot become complacent and think the new status quo is established as you are doing here.
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)in 1973, according to the Supreme Court. The right to vote regardless of race earlier than that. School prayer and the teaching of creationism were declared illegal by the Supreme Court long, long ago. But religious groups and Xstians of the kind defended here are still hugely successful in enacting policies and legislation that defy all of those.
So where's that "hell", okasha?
trotsky
(49,533 posts)It does us no good to assume the battle is over. In fact that could be the worst stance we could ever take. I guess that's what blinders will do to you, when you don't want to acknowledge any of the bad that religion is capable of.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,361 posts)white evangelical Protestant 7938
of which white evangelical Baptist 2934
white mainline Protestant 5981
of which white mainline Baptist 798
Pew's method of classification - I expect PRRI uses similar criteria:
instance, all members of the Southern Baptist Convention have been classified as members
of evangelical Protestant churches; those who belong to the American Baptist Churches in the
USA are classified as members of mainline Protestant churches; and those who belong to the
National Baptist Convention are classified as members of historically black Protestant churches.
Protestant respondents who gave a vague response to denominational questions (e.g., I am just
a Baptist or I know I am Methodist but dont know which specific Methodist denomination I
belong to) were placed into one of the three Protestant traditions based on their race and/or their
response to a question on whether they would describe themselves as a born-again or evangelical
Christian. This means that some groups may appear within more than one tradition. For example,
Independent Baptists appear in both the evangelical Protestant tradition and the historically black
Protestant tradition, and a respondents placement into one or the other depended on the race of
the respondent. These cases are noted in the detailed summary at the end of this appendix, with
a description in italics of the criteria used to classify them.
http://religions.pewforum.org/pdf/report2religious-landscape-study-appendix3.pdf
There's a church by church breakdown lower down; of the bigger ones, only American Baptist Churches in the USA are mainline (1.2%); the 2 big evangelical ones add up to 9.2%, and 'historically black' 2.3%.
American Baptist Churches in the USA's 1.2% is 7% of the total mainline, and all Baptists are 10% of that, so that's about 1.7% of all the population; the 2 big white evangelical ones are 36% of the 41%, so they're about 10.5% of the total population.
NYC_SKP
(68,644 posts)When I try to imagine the details of the data collection methodology, I have to wonder how general terms are derived and applied.
10.5% of the total population is a larger value than I'd imagined.
Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)and that money is used to make marriage equality a non-reality in this country?
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)to establish theist exceptions to anti-discrimination laws?
Supports gay marriage - subsidizes anti-equality organizations - votes for anti-equality political parties.
Yay!
Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)Union members voting for Walker. Just ridiculous.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)how the fight for marriage equality was necessary in the first place because these institutions resisted it.
The only thing that really bugs me about this survey is how the results are presented. Those bar graphs make things look far better than they actually are, so liberal believers can pat themselves on the back and convince themselves that everything is great. There are a few reasons why this is not the case, and we should not naively fool ourselves.
First is what you mention - despite increasing support from members, institutions themselves - especially the RCC have not even begun to give up the fight.
Second is the deceptive nature of that pretty bar graph. Evangelicals are way down the list, but as a proportion of the population they are more numerous than Catholics:
Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims, and Jews make up less than 5% TOTAL. It's nice to see where members of those faiths stand, but let's not fool ourselves that this indicates broad religious support.
Meh, don't know why I'm bothering. Critical analysis and acceptance of ALL the roles of religion on this issue just isn't allowed here, as evidenced upthread. If you can't kiss religion's ass in all your posts, your viewpoint is not welcome.
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)Buddhists, who make up 0.7%, Hindus, who make up 0.4% and Jews, who make up 1.7%, isn't it odd that they DON'T bother to include Mormons (1.7%), Jehovah's Witnesses (0.7%), Unitarians (0.7%) or Atheists (1.6%). Why, oh why, could that be? And why would anyone with a shred of intellectual honesty cite this graph to peddle the case for overwhelming religious support for same-sex marriage?
Of course, that leaves out the real elephant in the room..also curiously not included in the bar graph: Black churches (6.9%). Could this be why?:
"NBCI and its membership base are simply standing on the Word of God within the mind of Christ. We urge our brother and sisters of the PCUSA to repent and be restored to fellowship," NBCI President Rev. Anthony Evans said, according to Charisma News.
"PCUSA's manipulation represents a universal sin against the entire church and its members. With this action, PCUSA can no longer base its teachings on 2,000 years of Christian scripture and tradition, and call itself a Christian entity in the body of Christ. It has forsaken its right by this single wrong act," added the head of the coalition, which represents 15.7 million African-Americans.
Read more at http://www.christianpost.com/news/34000-black-churches-leave-pcusa-over-same-sex-marriage-136530/#0YYb1LL4CBoGcIr2.99
Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)And how it pretty much a religious thing in this country.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Brace yourself for one-liner content-free dismissals with no sources and no evidence.
MellowDem
(5,018 posts)I've been laying attention for a while. Sad though that there are that many bigots when it comes to homosexuality. They even make up the majority of certain denominations.
What's a little bit more of a head scratcher is how people continue to identify with bigoted belief systems that oppose their own beliefs, much less support these belief systems. The answer is clear enough to me, religious privilege, but most believers don't get it, including many progressive believers.
rug
(82,333 posts)Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)Your point?
rug
(82,333 posts)The largest officially atheist state has the power to legalize it. Why hasn't it?
Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)Why is that?
rug
(82,333 posts)Nor does it have the People's Liberation Army to enforce it. To answer Stalin's question, the Pope has no divisions to deploy.
Now that your deflection is done, answer my question.
Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)you refuse to answer on abortion, you refuse to anwer on your allegiance to a anti gay organization. You bring up the red scare of all things (which was used as a heavy club against atheists in this country, why "in god we trust" was put on our currency, and why it should be removed, but I digress) who aee you, McCarthy?
rug
(82,333 posts)Irony eludes you.
Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)As to your question, why are you asking me? I am not qualified to speak on the reasons the Chinese government hasn't legalized same sex marriage.
rug
(82,333 posts)Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)rug
(82,333 posts)And I believe China is larger than the Vatican.
Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)rug
(82,333 posts)Meanwhile explain why the largest officially atheist country enforces, with state power, homophobia.
Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)rug
(82,333 posts)Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)Simple question.
Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)rug
(82,333 posts)Particularly since I answered it a long time ago.
Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)As it must have been before my time.
rug
(82,333 posts)Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)I've read the thread and found nothing that answers it. I see a whole lot of deflection and gross misunderstanding of how the world works in your posts, but nothing that comes close to answering the question.
Why do you always lash out and deflect and misrepresent whenever someone asks a direct question? Must have hit a nerve.
phil89
(1,043 posts)atheism is not a religion or a belief system? Not believing in god/s has nothing to do with gay marriage. We don't have priests and pastors telling us what or how to think. I hope you can educate yourself on this because you always seem to confuse atheism and religion. Atheism is as relevant as lack of belief in santa. It's a position on one issue. Please get it right.
rug
(82,333 posts)Last edited Fri Apr 24, 2015, 08:49 PM - Edit history (1)
Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)because god
rug
(82,333 posts)Stupidity tends to be symmetrical.
Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)flailing to hide the fact that Religion is the primary source for hatred. Russia has literally said they have banned everything gay (going the extra mile there) because it offends God and the church. India has it banned because it's "Immoral" (which, as we all know, is in purely a religious meaning of the word) Your church has it against their core teachings, and the pope has declared it the work of satan himself!
China hasn't made any such announcement, if you're actually curious and want to help them, maybe you should do your own research instead of using them as a prop to deflect from your own failings.
rug
(82,333 posts)Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)and all you can muster is "I know you are but what am I?" Such the intellectual titan that strides this group.
cooldzy that guy
(1 post)rug
(82,333 posts)In_The_Wind
(72,300 posts)[img][/img]
Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)And they are just a tad smaller than china.
rug
(82,333 posts)You're flailing.
Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)One atheist country is nothing in the tiddof so many religious countries that ban it, sometimes on the painnof death. How many atheist countries have it legal?
(And while china is godless, they have very strong cultural religions, it really doesn't translate well, which is something you seem to know a lot about.)
rug
(82,333 posts)And that "one atheist country" is not nothing. It's a sixth of the world's population. You really should do something about that.
At the very least, post some cartoons or memes there.
http://www.chinasmack.com/2010/stories/10-ways-to-become-famous-on-chinese-discussion-forums.html
Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)You're trying to tie the atheists in China to atheists here, which is laughable, while trying to make us forget the fact that you're a proud, dues paying member of the world's largest homophobic, anti-woman corperation. And while China is 1/6th the world's populations (matched by Theistic India, which if you're for gay marriage you should really get on that) the RCC uses it's power and influence to spread it's homophobia across the globe.
rug
(82,333 posts)Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)I'm sure this whole thread is enlightening to those watching at home.
okasha
(11,573 posts)for Party members in general and public officials in particular has a whole lot to brag about. Apart from ongoing genocide of the Uyghur people, its main current accomplishment seems to be ordering the Dalai Lama to reincarnate.
His Lordship is trying as hard as he can to deflect your question. Unfortunately, the tactic is pretty obvious.
rug
(82,333 posts)Emptying his ink sac of accusations in the process.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)to kill Ref-74 here in Washington. That survey was in the context of the US, not China. Got nothing at all to do with this issue in this context. HERE, the problem is religion.
Churches spent millions on prop 8. Single largest donor in favor? The Knights of Columbus, a Catholic org. Any religious groups on the top ten donor list AGAINST prop 8? NOT A SINGLE FUCKING ONE.
http://ballotpedia.org/California_Proposition_8,_the_%22Eliminates_Right_of_Same-Sex_Couples_to_Marry%22_Initiative_(2008)
WA didn't post the donations for the anti-ref74 cabal, but that's because:
"A Public Disclosure Commission complaint has been filed, accusing both Preserve Marriage Washington and the National Organization for Marriage of having failed to report donations as required by law."
So ballotpedia just illustrates the purely religious objection to same sex marriage in the comments/statements, rather than showing the dollars spent.
http://ballotpedia.org/Washington_Same-Sex_Marriage_Veto_Referendum,_Referendum_74_(2012)
Spokane Bishop Blase Cupich stated, "Redefining marriage is a step backward in the progress we have made in protecting children...It is important to state that the Catholic Churchs stance on Referendum 74 is not against anything and especially not against anyone. To the contrary, it is our stance for the gift of marriage, for Gods plan for human society, for husbands and wives, for children. To suddenly change the God-given and time-honored understanding of marriage would be a very harmful thing for our state and for the world."[12]
Opponents of the bill, including Christopher Plante of the National Organization for Marriage and Joseph Backholm of the Family Policy Institute of Washington, urged lawmakers to put the issue to a popular vote.[13] Ken Hutcherson of the Kirkland, WA Antioch Baptist Church has become the spokesperson for The Stand for Marriage Coalition, and indicated that if the law passes, the group will begin to gather signatures to put a referendum on the ballot to overturn the law this fall.[14]
According to Chuck Whitfield, a co-owner of Whitfield's United Insurance Agencies, Inc., self-described conservative Christian, and member of the organized petition effort: "Our society is based on that premise. It's for procreation. It's the basic structure to society, to pass our values and beliefs on to other generations -- and it's under attack. Personally, I do not believe it's good for society to have same-sex marriage."
It is not 'more complex' than that. It is perfectly clear.
You can shove that tired lie, right up your ass. You are lying, and you are a liar. Anyone mature enough to read can see you are lying.
Edit: DU's software doesn't handle Ballotpedia links correctly. Copy and paste the whole thing to your address bar, including the year in parentheses at the end, and then the link will work.
rug
(82,333 posts)Don't be so ethnocentric.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)This was survey results in the US, and explicitly religious political activity in the US.
rug
(82,333 posts)AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Because the OP is about American culture, not Chinese.
In America, religion is most certainly the problem. Plenty of amicus briefs, proposed laws, consistent refrain of 'religious freedumb' for you to read up on, if you're truly ignorant of it.
In China, the reasons might be different. So what. The US isn't China.
MellowDem
(5,018 posts)Gay marriage isn't illegal in China because of atheism. I think you know this and are just throwing out red herrings.
Because, Catholicism is a belief system, and one of their core beliefs is that homosexuality is disordered, and that makes people that continue to identify as Catholic squirm and throw out red herrings.
You see, the reason the Pope is a bigot that just rejected the French ambassador for being gay is because of his belief system, for example.
rug
(82,333 posts)Nothing about atheism promotes or denies homosexuals rights. This seems to be really tough for you. You want, so badly, to compare atheism to Catholicism in order to avoid all that wonderful cognitive dissonance, you want to pretend atheism is just another religion, and all the same criticisms apply. But it's not, and they don't.
Look, I hope the Pope decides he's OK with a gay ambassador from France, maybe he will in the end, but his soft bigotry will still be there, because it forms part of the belief system.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Quelle surprise.
The Pope has personally met with Frances proposed ambassador to the Vatican to tell him his appointment will be blocked because he is gay.
The French government has refused to back down after selecting openly gay diplomat Laurent Stefanini to head to the home of the Catholic Church which remains actively opposed to LGBT rights.
However, the Vatican has snubbed the countrys selection of ambassador refusing to answer the nomination in a bid to get it withdrawn.
Pope Francis, who as the head of the Catholic Church is the sovereign of Vatican City, met with Mr Stefanini this week to personally reject him.
According to Reuters, the Pontiff met with the diplomat to tell him that he will not be allowed to become the countrys diplomat, because of his sexuality. Mr Stefanini is single, but the Pope also reportedly raised concerns about same-sex marriage.
http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2015/04/24/pope-personally-rejects-frances-gay-ambassador-to-the-vatican/
Nothing soft about his bigotry. His homophobic statements speak volumes about his beliefs.
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)thread. And all out of a need to defend your homophobic church. I have a question for you, when will you join the majority of Catholics in this country and become better than your church?
rug
(82,333 posts)The Catholic Church IS its members, inconvenient as that is your anti-Catholic talking points.
You may now attempt to resurrect in the innate complicity of every Catholic argument.
Be my guest.
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)Did they vote on who is Pope, or even their local Archbishop?
Do the laity exert any significant influence or control over the Church at all?
They are not the Church.
Though I do wonder how the numbers would look if they broke them down by how often everyone attends religious services or donate money to their respective churches, I would imagine that those who attend service at least weekly and donate money regularly are much more homophobic and socially conservative all around.
rug
(82,333 posts)Do tell. Produce the evidence for that bizarre statement.
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)and not confined to Catholics, many people who claim to be part of a religion are rather ignorant of their own religion's texts, whether its the Bible, the Catechism, the Book of Mormon, the Quran, etc.
This isn't surprising, most people, in the United States at least, are indifferent to the details of their religions, they believe in many things, some of which coincide with the religion they keep a label to. Cultural Catholics, Christians, Secular Jews, Secular Muslims, etc. are quite commonplace. These are people who live their lives as they like, and figure God only cares about the big or important stuff. Not only are many of them not interested in things such as the Catechism, but they may disagree with large sections of them quite actively when they learn of its contents. Same goes for other beliefs as well. Why else do you see, in poll after poll, majority of Catholics,who openly disagree with their churches on any number of issues, from transubstantuation to women priests to same sex marriage.
All I can say is thank goodness for the Cafeteria Catholic!
rug
(82,333 posts)I know the terms deluded and cognitive dissonance, attributed solely because of religious affiliation, have been bandied about often. Are you now adding "ignorant" to that list?
I'll grant you that Catechism is not a topic that frequently comes up and Catholics are often indifferent to that topic, but that is not a matter of ignorance or lack of understanding.
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)Quite a few Catholics are vaguely aware of what might be in the Catechism, but that is about the extent of it. Kinda like how they are vaguely aware of what's in the Bible. But the fact of the matter is, for the majority, the religion itself just isn't that important, yes they still call themselves Catholic, some of them probably even go to Church, to mollify mom or grandma, but that's about it.
These are people who will happily fib to a priest that yes, they will raise their kids Catholic just to get a Church service because they think its beautiful or the right thing to do.
Not to mention the "Catholics" who are Catholic on paper only, and by paper, I mean baptismal up to confirmation records, and I know of at least a dozen personally, mostly in my family and my fiancee's family. These are people who are, if you examine their beliefs, Atheists, Baptists, Non-Denominational Christian, at least one Pagan, one Wiccan, etc. They all still count as Catholic, and I don't think many of them have even thought about what's in the Catechism in a long time, if ever. This number includes me, of course.
oldandhappy
(6,719 posts)cbayer
(146,218 posts)trotsky
(49,533 posts)That lowest number actually represents the single largest group of believers in the country.
the GOP is fully committed to an agenda because of 70% of just one Christian sect?
cbayer
(146,218 posts)They still seem to believe that there are enough people who support their bigoted position to get people elected, but the data belies that belief.
I think (hope) we shall see some serious blowback in 2016.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,361 posts)are also fully committed to that agenda, and the GOP is all about pandering to the powerful, especially the powerful who are good at PR and propaganda.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)but not so much the rank and file.
edhopper
(33,615 posts)to either the hierarchy or the GOP.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)and that is who we support, right?
right and hopefully they will support Dems.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)Those that stake out anti-GLBT equality positions will have an audience, but I think they will also repel quite a large number of people.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)how the power of the almighty dollar can overcome the votes of the common people. Citizens United, anyone?
The RCC in particular has funneled large amounts of money into influencing elections. It's sad to see some who think this is totally irrelevant.
edhopper
(33,615 posts)and those with big $$ seem to have the only voice many politicians listen to.
Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)That the allegedly lgbtqa members donate to. Make that lg friendly, most of them don't even know what the rest stand for, let alone support.