Do countries become less religious as they get richer?

[cbayer]

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/USA-Update/2015/0316/Do-countries-become-less-religious-as-they-get-richer

A new study from the Pew Research Center shows that the wealthier a country is, the less religious its people tend to be, except America.

By Rowena Lindsay, Staff Writer MARCH 16, 2015


The curve represents the logarithmic relationship between GDP per capita and the percentage saying that religion plays a very important role in their lives. Germany, France, Britain % data from spring 2011; US., Japan % data from spring 2012. Source: Spring 2011, 2012, 2013 Global Attitudes survey. Data for GDP per capita (PPP) from IMF World Economic Outlook Database, April 2014


A study recently published by the Pew Research Center suggests that people in richer countries tend to be less religious and less optimistic than those in poorer countries. The United States, however, is a notable outlier.

Measured by gross domestic product per capita, the US was wealthiest nation surveyed. According to Pew's survey, 54 percent of Americans said religion was very important in their lives – more than double the percentage in the next three wealthiest economies: Canada (24 percent), Australia (21 percent) and Germany (21 percent).

According to Pew, the United States is also unlike similarly wealthy countries in that Americans put a greater emphasis on the correlation between belief in God and morality. Also, people in the U.S. also tend to be more optimistic than other wealthy nations, and on any given day are more likely to say they are having a particularly good day than are people in other wealthy countries.

But despite their religious tendencies, 57 percent of Americans do not agree that “success in life is pretty much determined by forces outside our control,” according to a different study conducted by Pew in 2014. This is significantly over the global median, 38 percent, and is perhaps a sign of the importance Americans place on individual achievement.

more at link

[liberal N proud]

1. Only in America, can you call yourself a preacher and clean the pockets of the gullible.

[cbayer]

2. Er, no. I think that happens pretty much everywhere.

It also happens that someone can call themselves "doctor" and clean the pockets of the gullible.

There are bad apples in every barrel.

[okasha]

15. Bankster. Lawyer. Stockbroker. Politician.

[cbayer]

16. Exactly. They are everywhere and those that prey on the

most vulnerable are the most despicable, whatever their chosen field to scam.

[skepticscott]

3. A little critical thinking might have explored the possibility

that higher levels of education lead to greater wealth AND less religiosity, rather than there being a cause/effect relationship between wealth and "faith".

[LiberalEsto]

4. Not always true. Estonia is one of the least religious countries in the world

and it is not a wealthy country by any means.

[cbayer]

5. It's an aggregate trend. I don't think they are trying to say

there is an absolute correlation.

[Maedhros]

6. I'd say it's more of a correlation between religiousity and education.

Richer countries have more access to education, hence their populations are less religious on the whole.

Except in the U.S. because we view teachers as evil Fifth Columnists, education as communist indoctrination and knowledge as Satan's influence.

[cbayer]

7. Except that you base your conclusion on a false assumption.

There is no correlation between education and religion.

There have been studies which show both a positive and negative correlation and there is no clear conclusion.

As far as I have seen the only consistent positive correlation is between religiosity (somewhat difficult to measure) and economic status.

And while there may be a correlation between economic status and education, it's not consistent enough to grab as a data point.

[Maedhros]

8. I find that surprising, but I'll take your word for it.

One could probably explain the position of the U.S. on the chart with the confluence of religion and politics in the U.S.

[cbayer]

10. I think you may be on to something about why the US is an outlier.

It was a country founded on religious liberty. Despite the clear rules regarding separation, there has been a nurturing of religion to some extent.

That, of course, has become a really serious problem and I think the 1st amendment is being flagrantly violated.

Hoping that the pendulum will swing back.

[muriel_volestrangler]

24. Inside the US, correlation of importance of religion and education or income about the same

Not that education can be quantified in the same way, but, divided up into categories:





http://www.gallup.com/poll/25585/religion-most-important-blacks-women-older-americans.aspx

So, 'very important' goes from 64% to 50% in 4 education groups; from 67% to 49% in 5 income groups. Education and household income are well correlated, of course. I don't think saying there's a correlation between education and importance of religion is 'false', though.

[cbayer]

29. Then again, when you break down by religious type, the results change pretty dramatically.

There are some really good references in the Wiki article on this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religiosity_and_education#cite_note-9


I feel pretty confident that there is no conclusive evidence here and that calling the assumption "false" is accurate.

[muriel_volestrangler]

30. No, what you're doing there is admitting it's true, but continuing to call it 'false'

by saying "but it's false for the most recent generation". Maedhros did not specify the age of people.

It's true. It will become less true as time goes on. But, now, it's true. You are inaccurate in calling it 'false'.

[cbayer]

31. No, I'm not doing that at all.

If you look at Jews, Muslims and Catholics, there is a strong correlation between education and religion. If you look at fundamentalists, the reverse is true.

There is data all over the place and none of it appears to back a definitive statement that there is lower religiosity with increased education.

In fact, some of the studies quoted show lower levels of education among atheists than the religious in general, though not for agnostics.

The problem here is primarily in the definition of "religiosity". It is too variable to be adequately quantified and self-reports are notoriously inaccurate.

It's not true. It's a false assumption, but if you wish to push it as truth despite no good evidence to back it up, I won't stop you. I will only challenge you.

[muriel_volestrangler]

32. Here's some clear international data from 2012, to add to the clear US data:

RELIGIOSITY IS LOWER AMONG COLLEGE EDUCATED: College educated are 16% less religious than those without secondary education.
The same pattern is applicable to formal Educational Attainment. As formal educational attainment rises, fewer self-describe themselves to be religious:
Percent of Population describing itself as RELIGIOUS
Less than Secondary Education 68%
Secondary Education 61%
Higher Education 52%

http://www.wingia.com/web/files/news/14/file/14.pdf

What the Wikipedia page says (though not in the footnote about age groups that you linked to) is:

He found that Hindus, Jews, Episcopalians,[6][7] Buddhists, and Orthodox Christians have the highest levels of education, Catholics, Mormons, and Muslims are at about the national average, and Jehovah's Witnesses have by far the lowest education. Evangelicals are somewhat below the national average. The religiously unaffiliated are just slightly above average in levels of college education.

So, some small groups in America ( Hindus, Jews, Episcopalians, Buddhists, and Orthodox Christians) have high levels of education. The unaffliated have slightly above average levels of education. One big group - Catholics - and 2 small groups, Mormons and Muslims, are at about the national average, and another big group - evangelicals are below the national average.

Take all that together, and the unaffliated level of education is higher that the affliated, on average. I'm showing you the evidence. You're just closing your eyes to it.

[cbayer]

33. The problem is that for every piece of "data" you can put up, another

can easily found that will contradict it.

The underlying problem is due to the immense diversity of the variable.

I have looked at multiple sources. All conclude that you just can't draw a conclusion.

This is one of those issues where you can definitely find something to support your position if you want, because the data is all over the place.

You've got nothing.

[muriel_volestrangler]

34. I've got data - I've shown you percentages; you've just quoted people saying

"it's complicated". Without giving actual figures.

[cbayer]

38. Self reports about degrees of religiosity are notoriously flawed.

If you want to take a definitive stand here, go for it. I'm done.

[AtheistCrusader]

39. Especially when the conclusion doesn't fit with your preferred outcome.

[trotsky]

40. Schooled once again.

LOL

[cbayer]

35. Religious groups normally have significant levels of education compared to those who are non-religio

Wright, Bradley R.E. (2010). Christians are hate-filled hypocrites-- and other lies you've been told : a sociologist shatters myths from the secular and christian media. Minneapolis, Minn.: Bethany House. pp. 87–88

[muriel_volestrangler]

41. Yes, those are the pages saying the non-affiliated are slightly above the national average

though "religious groups normally have significant levels of education compared to those who are non-religious" is just what the Wikipedia editor said, not Wright.

You agree with #32, then? Wright goes on to say, on p.89, "According to the Pew Religious Landscape Survey, 60% of high school graduates who didn't go to college regard religion as very important. Those numbers go down to 55% if those with some college education and 50% of college graduates. A similar pattern holds true with a certainty in God and praying outside of religious services (although there are little differences with church attendance rates by education).

Here's that survey: http://religions.pewforum.org/pdf/report-religious-landscape-study-full.pdf

In it, we find (p.56), go from 'less than high school', through 'high school grad', 'some college', 'college grad', post-grad', the percentages are:
Total Population 14 36 23 16 11
Unaffiliated 13 34 24 16 13
of which:
Atheist 8 28 23 21 21
Agnostic 5 22 29 23 20
Secular unaffiliated 10 35 24 17 13
Religious unaffiliated 21 40 22 11 6
So atheist, agnostic and secular unaffiliated are above the national average for education. The religious unaffiliated are below.

[AtheistCrusader]

42. I find 'education' a poor proxy for 'intelligence' too.

I have a high school degree and that's it. I beat out a 15 year Master in Communications for my first job at Microsoft. He spent a lot of time accruing titles in various education systems, didn't make him any smarter.

[trotsky]

43. Careful, cbayer.

Bradley Wright also "shatters" a myth that you hold dear - about "the nones."

[cbayer]

36. People with less education have decreased in religiosity in America

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2011-08/asa-lea081511.php

[muriel_volestrangler]

44. Have decreased in service attendance

It does look like the religious nonaffiliated have a significant lower level of education.

[trotsky]

45. I.e., your "nones."

The ones you are quite adamant are NOT atheists.

It's fun watching you demolish your own positions!

[cbayer]

37. Agnostics have significant levels of education, while atheists have relatively low levels of educati

"Secularism & Secularity: Contemporary International Perspectives". Hartford, CT: Institute for the Study of Secularism in Society and Culture (ISSSC), 2007. p. 36.

[trotsky]

46. Which the author postulates...

may be caused by a "bimodal distribution" due to rapidly increasing numbers of atheists in younger people, those who have not had time to acquire advanced degrees.

[Act_of_Reparation]

13. Sociologists tend to think it is the increasing availability of secular goods.

One thing you'll notice about the least religious nations is that they tend to be liberal democracies with expansive social welfare systems. In these countries, the government has assumed a role traditionally belonging to religious institutions--caring for the needy and the poor. If people are no longer beholden to religious institutions for their very survival, it follows that these institutions will command less authority and respect.

[cbayer]

14. China and the Czech Republic are the two most religious countries on the graph, so

I think your conclusions about the types of government they have might be a bit off the mark.

While China has done a lot of what you describe because it has embraced communism, there is a growing religious population, so the conclusion that those countries provide for the population what religion does in other places, and thereby eliminates the need for religion, also seems a bit off.

I thin the bottom line is that it's very complex and the role that religion plays can not be easily described.

[AtheistCrusader]

25. I think you read the graph wrong.

[trotsky]

49. Assuming you made an error with your subject line "most" vs. "least"...

those two data points don't really offset the dozens of others like you evidently think they do. This isn't like a global warming "debate" on FOX News where one side with 99% of climate scientists is equal to the other that has a handful of industry-paid shills.

[Maedhros]

18. I find it interesting that the U.S. is such an outlier on this chart,

and we also have a major political Party that wears it's religious fervor on its sleeve - and this Party wants to reverse what you have just described.

They want to get the government out of the social assistance game altogether, and argue that churches should take up the slack. Naturally, this will give churches more authority and respect, which they will use to strengthen the Party that gave it to them.

That explains a LOT.

[Act_of_Reparation]

22. The US is only an outlier if you look at wealth as the only factor.

The income disparity here is much wider than other nations of our class, and our social welfare programs leave something to be desired. So, while we technically have a lot of wealth, that wealth is highly concentrated at the top of the income ladder. This leaves millions of people in the middle and at the bottom who still derive social utility from religious institutions.

But I doubt this is a calculated move on the part of republicans to give religious institutions more authority. Secularization is pretty heady reading material, far beyond the grasp of, say, Ted Cruz or Rand Paul.

[Maedhros]

28. Not so much a calculated move, but a consequence nonetheless. [n/t]

[AtheistCrusader]

48. Bingo.

And economic mobility maps look a lot like religiosity maps, and a lot like political affiliation maps.

Blue, more mobile, less religious. There is a very strong correlation.

[Fumesucker]

9. Americans love to say they are religious

I think most of it is a mile wide and an inch deep.

In God We Trust but let's have by far the most powerful military in the world, just to be sure.

[okasha]

17. I think you're wrong there.

American exceptionalism relies in very large part on tne belief that the US is uniquely, divinely favored. The resultant triumphalism necessitates the obscenely overfunded war machine.

[Fumesucker]

19. America was terra incognita when the Bible was written

There is absolutely nothing in the Bible about America or Americans and jingoism isn't a religion no matter how much some people might wish it was.

Not to mention atheists are the most knowledgeable group in America regarding religion, that tells me right there that most theists don't actually pay much attention in Sunday School or Vacation Bible School.

[okasha]

20. Your first paragraph

is true but irrelevant. I suggest you read William Bradford on the subject of the Puritan colonies in what is now Massachusetts.

[annabanana]

11. Anxiety and Magic Thinking

The human need for order is served by religion or superstition or physical security.

http://www.amazon.com/Anxiety-Magic-Thinking-Charles-Odier/dp/B000NWU3YI

[cbayer]

12. Ok, this is a book from 1956 that apparently has absolutely nothing to do with religion.

Is this your philosophy?

[AlbertCat]

21. Another illustration...

.... that the USA is going the wrong way and far behind where it "should" be. Even with this graph about money and religion it looks like the world is looking at us sideways and going "what ARE they doing over there?"

[cbayer]

27. That conclusion really requires some interesting logic.

Since the US falls pretty much at the 50% mark for religiosity, the real outlier here is the GDP.

It is in our wealth that we fall off the curve.

And, I agree, the world is asking "what ARE they doing over there?"

[Warren Stupidity]

23. The other outlier is China. Poor, unreligious. nt.

[glowing]

26. We have such a large wage gap of inequality, I wonder

if that "wealth" per capita is the proper way to assign wealth in this country? We have the few at the top making lots and lots of money... And then there is the rest of America; still falling behind. And like President Obama once said, and became bashed over the head by media at that time: when people are poor they cling to their God and the Guns (something to that effect, but much more elegantly stated).

Perhaps part of clinging to God and equating morality with receiving good things like wrath or a good paying job for s reward, is just part of the package.

When you are awake in the middle of the night because your belly is empty, a child is sick, and worry over paying for rent or food or the electric bill, having the solice of talking to "God" may be the only peace of mind that helps still the upset in your mind, because Lord knows, you certainly don't have the money to pay for mental health professionals to get you thru the next day.

Being poor is like a 12 step program of living one day at a time; trying to make it just one more hour, one more night, one more week, one more year of hell!

[AtheistCrusader]

47. Correlation/causation

Income mobility is lowest in the south, where religious affiliation is highest. Which causes which?

This is the same region with the highest boot-strappy right wing demographic, so... Is the income non-mobility then perhaps due to undercutting social programs like education?

Edit: and if that's the case, is religion refuge from, or the cause of their inequality/poor income levels?

Compare Iowa and Mississippi on this map.
http://www.equality-of-opportunity.org/

Both states have roughly the same population, but Iowa spends more than 20% more on education. 10.8bn to 8.1bn in state and local spending.

That boot-strappy take care of yourself, trim public services bullshit has consequences. Where do people get it from?

[glowing]

50. Perhaps they go hand in hand...

Because they have been on the poorer side of things, they kling to religion.... The religion gets hijacked by a political party, and some tele-jerk is on the TV telling you that life is bad because of those other people, and their lifestyle. Like morality pays the bills....

A revolving cycle it seems.