Religion
Related: About this forumWhy Is Rape at the Origin of Most Religion?
Stories like the Virgin Birth lack freely given female consent. Why dont they bother us more?
Powerful gods and demi-gods impregnating human womenits a common theme in the history of religion, and its more than a little rapey.
-Zeus comes to Danae in the form of a golden shower, cutting the knot of intact virginity and leaving her pregnant with the Greek hero, Perseus.
-Jupiter forcibly overcomes Europa by transforming himself into a white bull and abducting her. He imprisons her on the Isle of Crete, over time fathering three children.
-Pan copulates with a shepherdess to produce Hermes.
-The legendary founders of Rome, Romulus and Remus are conceived when the Roman god Mars impregnates Rea Silvia, a vestal virgin.
-Helen of Troy, the rare female offspring of a god-human mating, is produced when Zeus takes the form of a swan to get access to Leda.
-In some accounts Alexander the Great and the Emperor Augustus are sowed by gods in the form of serpents, by Phoebus and Jupiter respectively.
-Though the earliest Christians had a competing story, in the Gospel of Luke, the Virgin Mary gets pregnant when the spirit of the Lord comes upon her and the power of the Most High overshadows her.
-The earliest accounts of Zoroasters birth have him born of a human father and mother, much like Jesus,; but in later accounts his mother is pierced by a shaft of divine light.
-The Hindu god Shiva has sex with the human woman Madhura, who has come to worship him while his wife Parvathi is away. Parvathi turns Madhura into a frog, but after 12 years in a well she regains human form and gives birth to Indrajit.
-The Buddhas mother Maya finds herself pregnant after being entered from the side by a god in a dream.
The impregnation process may be a ravishing or seduction or some kind of titillating but nonsexual procreative penetration. The story may come from an Eastern or Western religious tradition, pagan or Christian. But these encounters between beautiful young women and gods have one thing in common. None of them has freely given female consent as a part of the narrative. (Lukes Mary assents after being not asked but told by a powerful supernatural being what is going to happen to her, Behold the bond slave of the Lord: be it done to me . . .)
Who needs consent, freely given? If hes a god, shes got to want it, right? That is how the stories play out.
Whether or not the delectable young thing puts up a protest, whether or not seduction requires deception, whether or not the woman already has a husband or love, whether or not she is physically forced, the basic assumption is that the union between a god and a woman is overwhelming in an orgasmic way, not a bloody, head-bashed-against-the-ground kind of way. And afterwards? Well, what woman wouldnt want to be pregnant with the son or daughter of a god?
--snip--
The miraculous conception stories I listed may have roots in pre-history, in early religions centered on star worship and the agricultural cycle, but they emerged in modern form during the Iron Age. By this time in history, most women were chattel. Like children, livestock and slaves, they were literally possessions of men, and their primary economic and spiritual value lay in their ability to produce purebred offspring of known lineage. The men at the top owned concubines and harams, and virgin females were counted among the spoils of war. (See, for example, the Old Testament story of the virgin Midianites in which Yahweh commands the Israelites to kill the used women but keep the virgin girls for themselves.)
--snip--
This is the context for the miraculous conception stories, and in this context, the consent of a woman is irrelevant. Within a society that treats female sexuality as a male possession, the only consent that can be violated is the consent of a womans owner, the man with the rights to her reproductive capacitytypically her father, fiancé, or husband. Many Christians are surprised when told that nowhere in the Bible, either Old Testament or New, does any writer say that a womans consent is necessary or even desirable before sex.
http://www.alternet.org/belief/why-rape-origin-most-religion?paging=off¤t_page=1#bookmark
rug
(82,333 posts)edhopper
(33,606 posts)as certain believers see it?
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)I don't interpet it as a rape.
Edit i don't buy this version of this story so that is why i don't think it is rape.
If it happened like this then the op would have a point.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)Why don't you see the forcible impregnation of a woman without her consent as rape?
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)My point was that i don't interpet his overshadowing her as rape. In the story she said yes to the angel!
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)"overshadowing" her? The guy who works for the guy that raped her said that the said she wanted it? THAT'S your justification?
What the fuck, man?
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)I believe the official version. If a ghost did it against her eill then you would have a point.
But i don't buy that version.
Are we clear now?
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)Wow, just wow.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
1:33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. (1:34) "Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?" Just a few verses earlier (1:17-20), Zacharias is struck dumb for doubting his wife's angel-assisted pregnancy. Why wasn't Mary punished for her disbelief?
Was Joseph the father of Jesus?
(1:35) "The angel ... said ... The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God." Gabriel tells Mary that the Holy Ghost will come on her and she'll be covered by the power of God, so "the holy thing" that she delivers will be the Son of God.
Not once is she asked. Not once does she give consent.
Unless one says "well, she never said no..." I fail to see how this can be anything but rape.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)But you are somehow trying to rationalize and justify what appears to be rape when it comes to this story.
"I believe the official version" you said.
Reading the account, no where does she give consent, yet you try to see that she was "overshadowed" (I still don't know what that means) and not raped.
How can you justify a woman being impregnated without her consent as anything but rape?
EvilAL
(1,437 posts)Just a magical insertion of a god into the womb? fucked if I know.. heh
Mariana
(14,860 posts)You're absolutely right. She was not asked. The angel TOLD her what was going to happen - according to the official story.
rug
(82,333 posts)And editing out your rofl smiley only confirms it.
rug
(82,333 posts)Do you have even a glimmer of what "fiat voluntas tua" means?
Does it mean the same thing when a king or a god or an angel says, "This is what I will." I see no choice but to submit. That is not consent. It is like having a gun pointed at one's head. Where is the choice in that? Maybe Mary had heard the story of Lot's wife and decided it was better to go along to get along. Had they given Mary a choice, and she replied, "fiat voluntas tua" then that would be consent. But they didn't do that.
rug
(82,333 posts)I see more projection in that statement than fact. You should have paid more attention during Catechism.
Cartoonist
(7,321 posts)I learned to question the "official version" as I got older. It's called critical thinking. You aughta try it. It can be liberating.
rug
(82,333 posts)okasha
(11,573 posts)There's a long-running joke among linguists to the effect that Greek has no word for "yes," and Irish has no word for "no," and what that tells us about their cultures.
Koine Greek has instead three commonly used ways to denote agreement or consent:
The first is "By Zeus!". Does anyone need an explanation why Luke would not attribute this phrase to a devout Jew?
The second method repeats the question in declarative form. "Mary, do you want to be the mother of the Messiah?" "I want to be the mother of the Messiah."
The third, in modern English, translates as You said it." or "What you said." This is the form Luke uses in the Annunciation narrative. Jerome and
the King James translators render it more
elegantly, but it is unmistakeable consent.
Justin is correct. The response to him is disgusting.
rug
(82,333 posts)And that response was exceedingly disgusting.
Jim__
(14,083 posts)Translation is difficult. Reading translated text can lead to misunderstanding. Thanks for your clarification.
okasha
(11,573 posts)She did. Translation can be tricky, more so when changes occur over time and distance. A fundamentalist once assured me that Jesus and his disciples ate American-style corn on the cob, not realizing that "corn" in the KJV is Brit for "grain."
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)It means you're ok with her being god's property, for him to dispose of as he pleases, without consideration for her consent.
Nice of you to bring it up.
rug
(82,333 posts)Now if you want to imagine all sorts of bullshit because it suits your predispositions, that's up to you.
But don't once say I'm "ok" with whatever you dredge up from your mind.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Looks pretty bad to me. Ambiguous consent like David ordering Bathsheba to be brought before her. Did she actually consent? Or was this 'yeah, ok, just don't chop off my head'?
(Bathsheba being allegedly one of Jesus's ancestors...)
I also find it fascinating that you are bothering to defend a psychopath that murdered David's son by way of an affair with, or rape of Bathsheba, as punishment for the liason.
Sucks to be a bastard I guess.
But hey, 'god is just' right?
rug
(82,333 posts)It's only a matter of time before the subject moves to the Kardashians.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)David, being in a similar position of overwhelming power. He sent his guards/servants to fetch her. God sent his angel to inform mary. There was no 'ask'. She was TOLD.
God killing David's illegitimate son as punishment for conceiving it, is most certainly a tangent. Just pointing out the biblical character of god is a bloody-minded psychopath.
rug
(82,333 posts)Whether you like it or not, read okasha's post on the Koine Greek.
You're really getting swept up with sewage here.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)I said she was told. She was. You even posted the entire passage for everyone to see. She might as well have said nothing at all. The angel doesn't ask her anything. He answers a clarifying question, that is all.
Change the roles. Mary is an intern with no current external job prospects. 'God' is the CEO. CEO informs her he is going to fuck her.
Abuse of power? Most companies have the good sense to forbid this sort of imbalance in power for employee relations, because it is impossible to discern if even 'consent' is truly consent, or duress. Make the hypothetical CEO an actual, real, supernatural omnipotent god, and the balance of power and question of consent/duress is even worse.
Her response is, to me, telling. 'your handmaid'. Perhaps my corporate background changes the tone for me, but that looks really bad. There should have been an angel from Human Resources flipping the fuck out right about then.
rug
(82,333 posts)We're dealing with linguistics and translations here.
I took it you're looking for words suggesting something like a modern law Common Law contract, offer acceptance and consideration.
The event described is nothing like that. It's nothing like corporate HR standards or Monica Lewinsky's blue dress either.
All that follows, including The Magnificat, show otherwise.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Much, much worse. Monica may have had multiple levels of safety/comfort in physical security/justice available to her if she said 'no'. What could someone do, to refuse a god that is not *asking*?
That's the major standout in the passage you cited (via the translation you selected). She is not asked. She is told. She asks a clarifying question and it is answered. She expresses some enthusiasm (colored with the 'handmaid' comment, which I take a 'servant', not consenting partner view of.)
Expressing some willingness after the declaration is interesting, but as far as I'm concerned, power was already exercised over her when she was *informed* that this would happen and why and by whom.
I don't see any reference anywhere to god or anyone on his behalf asking her if she consented.
rug
(82,333 posts)Saying what will happen is not saying, "or else". Since this story concerns the super-natural, you're butting up against the notion of omniscience versus predestination.
In a nutshell, saying something will happen is not the same as saying something must happen. It's clear from what happened before and after this passage that this required her consent and her choice. The messenger knew what that choice was, or should I say would be. (There is no time in eternity, which is after all what this passage is about.)
okasha made a couple of excellent linguistic points about the language used here. If you seriously want to discuss this, I would put some specific questions to her about why you're not finding the specific (English, with contemporary American meaning) words you're looking for.
But, as this is beginning to sound like a new employee orientation talk on sexual harassment, I would check with her before we go around any more circles.
In the meantime, you can read this:
http://www.theatlantic.com/sexes/archive/2012/12/let-it-be-marys-radical-declaration-of-consent/266616/
There's loads of stuff out there.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)"Saying what will happen is not saying, "or else"."
So I shouldn't have said that, but there is no alternative here. The Atlantic article misses the mark, though there are two fair points made: 1. No indication of physical rape. This is more akin to somehow magically making someone a surrogate, without any physical contact. So 'rape' may not apply, depending on the nature of the overshadowing spirit thing. 2. Mary may not yet be pregnant when the angel informs her what will be. Someone downthread made the claim that she was.
I think the original point stands, and the atlantic article is apologia that dances around the actual issue. No one asks Mary anything. She is told.
She ventures willingness to be a servant (handmaid)in this matter, but again, that is not necessarily informed consent.
rug
(82,333 posts)AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)the translation is in no way an invitation in any terms I understand. It is a declarative statement, or a prediction, not an ask/invitation.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Fascinating.
Too canned.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Because that was off the top of my head. In fact, I've never heard anyone make that argument before.
rug
(82,333 posts)somewhere, sometime.
Could it have been in here?
Nah.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)I've heard hitchens say something similar, but, I've never heard hitchens talk about the illegitimate son of David, and god killing that 7 day old child as punishment to David for his indiscretions.
rug
(82,333 posts)AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)rug
(82,333 posts)okasha
(11,573 posts)It's not about David's zipper (or Iron Age equivalent) problem. It's about a life for a life.
And no, I don't approve of punishing a child for a parent's transgression.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)okasha
(11,573 posts)Obviously not.
Neither do I approve of the intellectual laziness that leads some readers to assume that the tribal god of the Davidic line is identical to the vision that emerges among the Jewish prophets with the Isaiahs and is maintained through the teachings of Rabbi Jesus in the New Testament.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)I wanted to make sure we were talking about the actual, specific, character of god as captured in one branch of the Abrahamic tradition's source documents.
(I disagree that it is 'intellectual laziness' to assume they are the same characters, in fact, god insists in same said documents to BE one and only one.)
okasha
(11,573 posts)that's so.
If you're not, it isn't.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)purported to be the literal second-hand account of witnesses or people who spoke to witnesses of an actual event.
Of course, I consider that a lot less reliable than anyone can possibly imagine, but that's what it's sold as.
okasha
(11,573 posts)Given that this is unlikely to be true, bear in mind that even recognized and academically respected first century CE historians saw nothing wrong with inventing dialogue for historical figures. The annunciation story comes from L, a source and/or document not shared with any of the other evangelists. Q, the "sayings gospel," can be largely reconstructed from Luke and Matthew, and information about its language inferred. There's no way to do that with L, or to determine who that was or whose viewpoint it presented.
The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,829 posts)That was kind of the whole point of the thing - If Jesus was supposed to be the perfect, sinless son of God, supposedly he would have been conceived without the "sin" of sex. So even if one believes Mary was made pregnant magically by God (with or without consent), there wasn't any sex. No penetration. The usual definition of rape is nonconsensual sex involving penetration. If it's a case of magical nonconsensual impregnation without penetration or sex of any kind, is it still rape?
rug
(82,333 posts)Technically, it was a noncarnal incarnation.
EvilAL
(1,437 posts)So....
rug
(82,333 posts)That canard's been debunked throughout this thread.
If you need help, I'll point you to the posts.
EvilAL
(1,437 posts)it seems to be interpretation. I'd assume that god would know she'd say yes anyway, he's god right, and who is she to deny god wanting to use her womb be born as a human. I still say she had no choice, or the choice was already made for her, by god.
rug
(82,333 posts)The Canticle of Mary.
46 And Mary said: My soul proclaims the greatness of the Lord;
47 my spirit rejoices in God my savior.
48 For he has looked upon his handmaids lowliness; behold, from now on will all ages call me blessed.
49 The Mighty One has done great things for me, and holy is his name.
50 His mercy is from age to age to those who fear him.
51 He has shown might with his arm, dispersed the arrogant of mind and heart.
52 He has thrown down the rulers from their thrones but lifted up the lowly.
53 The hungry he has filled with good things; the rich he has sent away empty.
54 He has helped Israel his servant, remembering his mercy,
55 according to his promise to our fathers, to Abraham and to his descendants forever.
56 Mary remained with her about three months and then returned to her home.
Velveteen Ocelot and okasha had it right downthread.
It never fails to amaze me how difficult it is for people to let go of their beliefs.
EvilAL
(1,437 posts)and that it may have made her happy that her god chose her. Didn't hurt her ego either that she figured everyone would love her forever. Good enough, I'll agree and say it wasn't rape as we define it when only humans are involved. I'm gonna cut out of this thread, rape-talk is depressing.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Is that consent?
Or a king and a serving wench. You name it.
There is nothing about peers, each consenting to the other, to have a child in that passage.
Mary appears to have had as much choice in the matter, as our AKC Labrador had when we bred her.
rug
(82,333 posts)21st century corporate sexual harassment to first century Judea.
Does PeTA know about your abetting canine rape?
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Because, as I'm sure you understood, the idea was to convey a lack of consent, or presence of ambiguous consent. I think it maps rather well, only stronger, because a CEO has limits, a supposedly omnipotent god does not.
I imagine the balance of power is somewhat similar to the dog breeding program, treating a living thing as property to be disposed of at a whim. (We no longer participate in AKC breeding programs, and in fact, do rescue ops now. It was a moral question that had not been raised at the time.)
rug
(82,333 posts)It' so . . . . perfect!
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)rug
(82,333 posts)That's a funny clip.
Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)Declaring sex a sin, and then arguing the definition of rape? Is anyone actually thinking about what they are saying here? Or is the urge to defend imaginary beings just that great?
edhopper
(33,606 posts)if others did?
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)edhopper
(33,606 posts)or was she just told she was already pregnant?
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)And she said let it be done unto me according to his will.
Interpet it how you will.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)Thats not asking, thats telling.
The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,829 posts)in which she sounds pretty positive about the whole thing...
okasha
(11,573 posts)"...my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Savior.
For he that is mighty hath magnified me...
All generations shall call me blessed."
Something that's frequently passed over is a verse I'm.ediately following the annunciation narrative. We're told that "Mary arose in those days.." to go to Jerusalem to visit Elizabeth.". The Greek says, "and Mary got up...". It implies that she simply and immediately set off for Jerusalem, likely on foot.
Luke's Mary has a spine. She's not meek, and she's nobody's pushover.
I like that about her.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)You will. Not 'would you?'.
If a meatbag CEO did this to another person, he'd be in deep shit. Why is it ok for an omnipotent god?
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)It got me upset the other day.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)I'd be upset if I thought it had actually occurred. (I do not)
I am upset that people are apparently missing this connotation in the texts, in the story as presented by people who fervently believed it. I can't tell if it's a blind spot, or willful denial predicated on the next logical question if it is accepted as true.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)When you get time/interest sometime down the road, I would ask you to reflect on the balance of power between the character of Mary, and the character of God, and the manner of that exchange, was she asked, or was she told.
Introspection is a lot more productive and reliable, than arguing with some faceless name on the internet, I have found.
Obviously I take a negative view of it, but tell you what, I will review the text in multiple translations later, after a cooling off period, as well as the later texts that Okasha and co. have referenced here, and see if maybe I missed something.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
1:33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. (1:34) "Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?" Just a few verses earlier (1:17-20), Zacharias is struck dumb for doubting his wife's angel-assisted pregnancy. Why wasn't Mary punished for her disbelief?
Was Joseph the father of Jesus?
(1:35) "The angel ... said ... The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God." Gabriel tells Mary that the Holy Ghost will come on her and she'll be covered by the power of God, so "the holy thing" that she delivers will be the Son of God.
I see no consent, no asking if this is what she wants.
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)Even if you take the gospels at face value, they are not a testament of Mary, but rather the alleged testaments of two of the apostles written, at best, decades after the apostles would have been long dead by anonymous sources in the 3rd person. The stories also contradict Paul, who makes no mention of a divine forced birth and states Jesus was the product of a lawful union.
haikugal
(6,476 posts)Seems to go to the heart of the matter from sex through pregnancy and a woman's rights to her own body, and how the religious are constantly attempting to push women back down into a helpless place. Keep the little woman under the thumb of a man from birth til death. It's gawds will etc. There is no BAD rape right?!
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)and instead try to wave it away. See post #1 for an example.
haikugal
(6,476 posts)rug
(82,333 posts)Calling the Annunciation "rape" is ludicrous. Compare the actual story of the Annunciation to the author's dishonest description. A dishonest description you blithely reposted.
There is something quite skeevy about using rape to make some vague antireligion comment.
Now, if you had any real interest in discussion, you would have actually discussed the point instead of making passive-aggressive comments to third partiers.
edhopper
(33,606 posts)26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth, 27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary. 28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. 29 And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be. 30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
Seems it was done to her and then she was told about it. What do you call that?
rug
(82,333 posts)26 In the sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a town of Galilee called Nazareth,
27 to a virgin betrothed to a man named Joseph, of the house of David, and the virgins name was Mary.
28 And coming to her, he said, Hail, favored one! The Lord is with you.
29 But she was greatly troubled at what was said and pondered what sort of greeting this might be.
30 Then the angel said to her, Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God.
31 Behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name him Jesus.
32 He will be great and will be called Son of the Most High,* and the Lord God will give him the throne of David his father,
33 and he will rule over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end.p
34 But Mary said to the angel, How can this be, since I have no relations with a man?*
35 And the angel said to her in reply, The holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. Therefore the child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God.
36 And behold, Elizabeth, your relative, has also conceived* a son in her old age, and this is the sixth month for her who was called barren;
37 for nothing will be impossible for God.
38 Mary said, Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord. May it be done to me according to your word. Then the angel departed from her.
The fiat, the consent, that this will occur is in verse 38.
Construing this passage as rape requires the services of a dozen chiropractors.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)Considering that a handmaid is a female servant, servants weren't likely to say "no" to their masters. She had no choice, she was told this was going to happen.
I'm sure there are many chiropractors in your area, make an appointment.
rug
(82,333 posts)Go back to your edits and your alerts.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)rug
(82,333 posts)It's fortunate irony is not tangible because there'd be no room left in here to post.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)For some reason, the phrase "A cold day in hell" comes to mind.
rug
(82,333 posts)okasha
(11,573 posts)The angel declares "thou shalt conceive (future tense) not "thou hast conceived."
Mary then asks for information, pointing out, reasonably, that she's not sexually active. "How shall this be....?"
The angel answers her question. "This is how that will happen...".
Mary consents:"You have said."
And what I call the OP's gloating over a rape fantasy is "nauseating."
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)So I suppose it really boils down to....
A) you want to consider the bible historical rather than mythological
and...
B) you want to consider the act with a contemporary conscience rather than a historical one
If both A and B are true, then it's hard to imagine this as anything but rape. Jewish females were routinely betrothed at 12-15, so the chances that Mary was an adult female are quite remote. So even if you were able to twist yourself into believing she was anything near the age of a person able to give what is today regarded as legal consent, her ability to withhold such consent would have been comparable to that of a slave. She even qualifies her "consent" as that of a subservient subject of a divine master.
But let's say one didn't want to agree to both A and B. That would require one to acquiesce the bible is mythology, and/or a piss-poor contemporary moral compass. Personally I go with both.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)However several apologists have chimed in with:
"no it isn't"
and
" "
That's a pretty fair sampling of dialog on belief from the believers here.
rug
(82,333 posts)not what is plain to see.
edhopper
(33,606 posts)"The author's repeating an ignorant statement about the Annunciation."
edhopper
(33,606 posts)that attitude is alive today in many of the major religions.
Woman as subservient or property is alive and well.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)It's a core part of the teachings and integral to the structure of the system.
edhopper
(33,606 posts)though I don't know enough about other religions like Hindu and Shinto to say about others. Though parts of those societies are not female friendly either.
Feral Child
(2,086 posts)Fascinating consistency, isn't it? That pattern indicates a need in the human psyche, since it appears so frequently.
I was aware of the many examples in polytheistic religions, of course, but hadn't considered the implications when considering the Christian mythology. I had always focused on the "dying and reviving god" aspect of the Christ mythology, but hadn't actually considered the "immaculate conception" as a non-consensual fertilization, though it most certainly is.
I'll bookmark that for a full read later. Thanks for posting.
Cartoonist
(7,321 posts)Whether Mary was raped or gave consent, Joseph is the most famous cuckold in history.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)truebluegreen
(9,033 posts)Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)goldent
(1,582 posts)Prophet 451
(9,796 posts)In the cases of Pan, Romulus & Remus, Alexander and Augustus, we're not told whether the mother consented or not. In the case of Zoroaster, it depends on which version of teh story you go with. I suspect that's due to the times and places they appeared in just not caring about female consent (or, at least, not in the way we do today). We can't simply assume lack of consent in these cases, any more than we can assume consent.
okasha
(11,573 posts)Queen Maya has a prophetic dream in which she sees a white elephant holding a white lotus blossom circles her three times, then enter her womb as if it were an unborn child. There is no suggestion that the Buddha's father was anyone but the queen's mortal husband, or that his conception was the result of anything but normal sexual activity.
Nor were Romulus and Remus, or Alexander or Augustus the origin of any religion. Roman and Greek religion were both well-developed before the establishment of their minor cults.
niyad
(113,534 posts)AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)okasha
(11,573 posts)Arugula Latte
(50,566 posts)rug
(82,333 posts)Failed mockery deployed to disguise the resulting mess.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)That and "how dare you even say such a thing!"
trotsky
(49,533 posts)CrispyQ
(36,502 posts)Jappleseed
(93 posts)Religion is all about empowering some and controlling others.
kwassa
(23,340 posts)Nothing brings out the attacks and empty arguments from him like impending Christian holidays.
The pattern is clear.
okasha
(11,573 posts)Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)You get up after you die and start walking around, you are a zombie. If you are also a god, you are a zombie god.
okasha
(11,573 posts)If you can't manage to discuss transhumanism in a thread you started yourself, you're not likely to do very well with Christian theology.
But here's a start: read Paul.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)while walking dead. Of course there is no evidence he did anything anyway so "eating brains" is pretty much in the same category as "was crucified".
rug
(82,333 posts)So, what's your view of transhumanism?
Alittleliberal
(528 posts)I'm a wizard I swear.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)and mods are quite busy all day. This is not that forum.
kwassa
(23,340 posts)The point is quite obvious.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)I got your point. My point was there is a safe haven where only positive expressions of faithiest sentiments can be expressed, and that this is not that forum, so your personal attack was both rude and unwarranted.
Bless you.
Have a nice day.
Cheers.
kwassa
(23,340 posts)Why attack the same worthless message over and over again? This has already been done, repeatedly, and already done in this thread.
Since you did NOT get my point, let me make it very, very clear for you.
Cleanhippie, in my humble opinion, shows his extreme personal pettiness towards people of Christian belief by attacking their belief at important Christian holidays. He makes a point of doing this over and over. He could do this at other times, but makes a point of it at these Christian holidays.
Clear enough? Or do I need to break it down further for you?
unrepentant progress
(611 posts)And humans.
But for what it's worth, in early societies rape is usually tied to slavery which is tied to the invention of ritualized debt. To the extent that religion enters into it, it's a retcon of existing power structures onto folklore.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)The question is why there appears to be a lot of rape or rape like events in religious mythology.
okasha
(11,573 posts)In early patriarchal societies, it's also tied into the idea of women and children as tangible (and fungible) wealth.