Mother Slits 5-Year-Old Son's Throat, Stomps on His Chest to "Release Demons"

[cleanhippie]

Daphne Spurlock's Facebook page is filled with religious imagery and Bible quotes; last February she wrote, "The best thing that ever happen to me is when I gave my life to Jesus and He filled me with His precious Holy Ghost."

Early Saturday morning, what her husband has called an increasingly strange belief that she was hearing voices became too much, and she slit the throat of her five-year-old son and then stomped on his chest in order to release the demons supposedly inside him. "She was reading from the Bible with him (the child) and realized he was infested with demons and had to release these demons from him," a spokesman for the Magnolia police department told reporters.

--snip--

​Spurlock's husband, David, told the Houston Chronicle, "I can't put it together yet...She started cussing a week ago. That was not like her at all." She said the voices in her head were Jesus, said the husband, who was not home at the time of the attack in their Magnolia home.

http://blogs.houstonpress.com/hairballs/2012/03/daphne_spurlock_slits_5-year-ol.php

[hlthe2b]

1. Sounds like Schizophrenia...

[cbayer]

3. Exactly. Very sad that she was not able to get treatment earlier.

[skepticscott]

28. Except that when someone hears voices and calls them "Jesus" or "God"

it's considered vile bigotry to say that they are delusional or that anything is wrong with them at all. What is there to treat? Who are you to say that Jesus or God weren't really talking to this woman?

And when people hear the voices of "god" or "Jesus" telling them to do good things, why is that any less delusional than this?

[Green_Lantern]

96. because it depends on if they actually hear the voices or if it is just inspiration...

I don't think I'm going to hear God when I pray...unless god has vocal chords.

[skepticscott]

111. Which answers exactly none of my questions

Try again. Use the power ring if it helps.

[cleanhippie]

5. Of that there is no doubt.

I just wonder to what extent her religious beliefs exacerbated the problem.

[Ian David]

8. It's so hard to tell the difference between Fundamentalism and Insanity. n/t

[Deep13]

24. It also sounds like a geniune religious belief.

Are you saying religious people are all crazy?

[hlthe2b]

31. The abrupt dramatic change in behavior, including hearing voices & paranoia consistent /w psychotic

break.

The best way to answer your question is with one to you: Are all religious people murderers? Of course not all who have some religious or spritual belief are mentally ill. Do you likewise suggest agnostics are mentally ill because they seemingly can't make up their mind (or from your perspective, adequately evaluate the information available to them)? If you truly believe that--are so intolerant of those with whom you disagree, that is very sad.

This is dramatic and sad mental illness. Did her perception of religion (misperception) feed into her mental illness? It wouldn't be the first time. But, at its core, she is mentally ill--which undoubtedly will be shown to be the case. Schizophrenia is very likely primarily a genetically acquired condition. But, this does not preclude prenatal development, early environment, neurobiology and psychological and social processes as important contributory factors. Certainly extremist religious teachings could pose an important contributing social process for someone already genetically predisposed to the condition.

[Deep13]

2. If people believe demons are real...

they will act like it. "Atheist slit's child's throat, stomps on chest to release Darwinism." I just don't see that happening. And no, I am not suggesting atheists can't be evil or that Christians can't be good. I am saying that one must believe in demons to think these actions seem like a good idea.

[cbayer]

4. Lots of schizophrenics try to explain what is happening to them by invoking demons

or other kinds of evil spirits.

Can you imagine hearing voices telling you that you are bad, or about to be killed, or instructing you to do something really bad.

In their attempts to understand what is happening to them, they will create all kinds of explanations.

This has nothing to do with religion.

[cleanhippie]

7. "This has nothing to do with religion."

No, cbayer, nothing to do with it at all.

[2ndAmForComputers]

122. Well, now she can't complain when someone says Stalin's atrocities had nothing to do with atheism.

(Which they didn't, by the way.)

[Ian David]

9. If you go to a congregation and surround yourself with people who also hear voices...

... and praise you as a prophet, touched by god when you roll around on the floor speaking in tongues, you're not likely to get psychiatric help before you finally hurt someone.

[cbayer]

11. Where in the article does it say that she did any of that? In fact, her husband says that

her hearing voices was "an increasingly strange belief".

[Ian David]

13. Not necessarily this particular case. But there are entire congregations centered on this...

... some Charismatic and Pentecostal sects, for example, that venerate people who "speak in tongues" and hear voices.

[cbayer]

16. Sure, but how often do they kill their own children? Is the number that do that

any higher in these populations than in those that aren't members of these kinds of congreations?

[Ian David]

26. That would be interesting to find some data about. n/t

[SamG]

27. It's not the number that kill, it's the twisted

reasoning that parallels religious belief that is being brought to our attention here.

Does the name Andrea Yates sound familiar? John Salvi? Anders Behring Breivik?

One could safely say that the majority of schizophrenics do not commit violent acts, either, particularly if their illness is under modern medical treatment.

It is the opportunity afforded to true believers who consider it their mission to kill and the reinforcement that their religious beliefs offer them that is being spotlighted here.

The intersection of aberrant religious beliefs, tied with a sense of mission, and violence toward people, with or without a diagnosis. I don't think any of the 9/11 terrorists were documentably mentally ill, but they certainly were on a religiously inspired mission.

[Warren Stupidity]

10. So which claims of divine instructions are we supposed to believe?

Or are you saying that all claims that "god told me" are not believable?

[cbayer]

12. I'm not sure what you mean by "divine instruction" but I would feel pretty confident

in saying that if one received one telling you to slit your child's throat to release demons, we are looking at a serious psychiatric disorder.

[Ian David]

14. But religious history is filled with people who were instructed by unseen voices to kill people.

Are you saying that Moses, Joan of Arc, and Abraham, just to name a few, were all mentally ill?

[cbayer]

18. Those are stories that you may or may not take literally. At any rate, this woman is not

Moses, Joan of Arc or Abraham. She is just a very unfortunate person who had a serious psychotic break and killed her own child.

It's a failure of the healthcare system, not of religion.

[Goblinmonger]

22. How do you know she's not Joan of Arc.

If you seriously believe that god will, does, and has talked to people and told them to do horrible things, you have a pretty solid problem telling me this woman isn't one of them. Maybe Abraham was just a crazy bastard, too, that got lucky with his voices before he sealed the deal.

[Green_Lantern]

97. I never read Abraham's personal account saying he literally conversed with God...

That is just how the writers of Genesis described the inspiration they believe he received.

[Ian David]

25. It is the failure of both. She lives in a culture where the majority believes in angels and demons.

That couldn't have helped.

[cbayer]

32. That's right. And as I said above, people having acute psychotic breaks will try

desperately to explain or understand them. They often, but not always, begin to think that they are having some kind of religious experience. Just as often, they think that the CIA has implanted a device in their brains to control them or things like that.

They will use information that is available to them, and religion is one of those things available.

[Ian David]

35. Agreed. And it's obviously not ALWAYS religion that they use.

And there are support groups for people who believe they have been abducted by aliens that put implants in them, and many of those people have also had psychotic breaks. And this becomes another reinforcing community that might convince them they are not sick, and don't need to seek help.

[cbayer]

37. I concede that point. Her kind of church may try to "treat" her instead of getting her treatment.

The stigma against psychiatric disorders is particularly high in some communities.

[Goblinmonger]

21. Abraham got that message from god

and he was going to go through with it.

So you should only think it's really god talking to you if it is telling you good things?

How about this standard instead: if you hear voices in your head that you think are god talking to you--regardless of what they are telling you to do--get psychological help immediately.

[skepticscott]

30. So you're diagnosing Abraham

as having a serious psychiatric disorder because he received a divine instruction to sacrifice his son to god?

Must be more of that New Age Theology.

[Green_Lantern]

98. We have not had eye witness testimony to what Abraham heard or did...

So we can't apply it to what we know about schizophrenia now.

[Warren Stupidity]

53. So when god told Abraham to slay issac, that must not have been throat slitting

Or else demons were not involved. Ok. That makes sense.

[struggle4progress]

108. Are you becoming confused by all the conflicting "divine instructions"

you think you hear? Or was your question purely hypothetical?

[Warren Stupidity]

125. yes.

[jberryhill]

15. And religion hands them a ready made one

If I heard such voices, I'd see a doctor.

But we have an industry in this country which teaches people that hearing voices telling them to do stuff is not only normal, but a sign of blessedness. And the crazier you are, the more blessing you got.

[cbayer]

17. You might see a doctor if the services were available to you, if you had the resources and

you lived in a world where psychiatric illness wasn't highly stigmatized.

Otherwise, you might not.

I doubt this woman is being seen as more blessed than others, no matter what kind of community she lives in.

[jberryhill]

65. You've obviously not known Pentecostals well

[skepticscott]

112. Well, I'm sure no Pentecostals

that SHE'S ever met have been like that....which pretty much settles things, right?

[Mariana]

64. Not only that, but they're taught to OBEY.

There may be a religion out there that doesn't teach total obedience to the wishes of their god(s). But, I haven't heard of any, and I imagine they're few and far between. Generally, the ultimate "sin", deserving of the worst punishment, is not doing what "god" wants you to do.

[cbayer]

93. Most protestant denominations in this country never teach total obedience to the

wishes of their god(s).

[jeepnstein]

118. Mine does.

Of course that obedience is also subject to considerable prayer, accountability to others, and more than a bit of study. If a member of my little congregation came up to me and said "Hey, I'm hearing a voice that says Satan is living in my infant son's body and I must cast him out by stomping his lungs..." I'm pretty sure we'd discourage that action plan.

That's one of the big reasons that Christians must take part in collective worship and be part of their religious community. We have to be accountable to one another and when that accountability is lacking bad things will happen.

[virgogal]

19. I agree. n/t

[Deep13]

23. Why is it that psychotic delusions look so much like religious imagery?

And to what extend does a readily available religious explanation prevent schizophenics from realizing that they are mentally ill?

Anyway, this is a bit of a deflection since the article does not mention any mental illnesses.

[cbayer]

33. Schizophrenics, and others having psychotic episodes, rarely realize that they are mentally ill.

It has nothing to do with religion. Religion (the CIA, the Bilderburg group, global warning or whales) might all be used by someone having these experiences to explain what is happening to them.

She is mentally ill.

[skepticscott]

45. Is EVERYONE who hears the voices of "god" and "Jesus"

telling them to do things mentally ill? Yes or no?

[cleanhippie]

73. And again, when the answers get TOO tough, the believer runs away...

The answer to that question (which we all know the answer to) just makes them way too uncomfortable. After all the rationalizing, all the hand waving, all the obfuscating, all the deflecting, this simple question, with a simple answer, is just too much for them to deal with.

It's kinda pathetic, really.

[trotsky]

88. Nuh-uh.

It's a GOTCHA question, the worst kind!

[cleanhippie]

99. Oh, a "gotcha" question. It seems to be a common theme with RW wing nuts...

I wonder if there is a correlation.

[trotsky]

110. The correlation is a position that is unsupported by facts.

And when forced into the rhetorical corner, the only escape is to complain that it was a trap to begin with. Well, of course it was - a trap of their own making by holding such an untenable position in the first place!

[jeepnstein]

119. No. Absolutely not.

I give money to bums, rides to hitch hikers, visit the sick in hospitals and nursing homes, all sorts of weird stuff like that. Some times that little voice in my head that makes me drop what I'm doing and attend to someone who is in need is so stinking loud you just can't ignore it. Does that make me crazy? Maybe. It's certainly not in my self-interest to do such things. And some of the folks I meet are so repulsive that nobody in their right mind would give them the time of day. Yeah, I'm probably nuts. The guy fresh out of prison I met a couple of weeks ago was probably on the ragged edge of deciding whether to try to rob me, but it didn't prevent me from lending a hand.

There may come a day when I feel the call to drop what I'm doing and go in another direction entirely. I've known men who have done exactly that and I consider them some of the greatest examples of true Christian love that ever walked. You guys are right about that, though, right now I probably lack the courage of my convictions to answer that call.

Some times that voice in your head is just telling you the right thing to do. Ignore it at your own peril.

[cbayer]

120. Thank you, not just for this answer but for all that you do.

[skepticscott]

127. Of course...the "answer" is judged not on its merits re the issue at hand

but by how well it validates your agenda and how warm and fuzzy it makes you feel.

[skepticscott]

126. And this has anything to do with

hearing the voices of "god" and "Jesus"..how? And is it not mental illness to hear voices (as opposed to your own impulses) if they tell you to do good things? How is that any less delusional than hearing voices telling you to do bad things?

[russspeakeasy]

6. Thanks for the common sense.

[SamG]

20. Sadly, for people to "accept Jesus as

their savior" is FREE! And, for many people, getting appropriate psychiatric help costs too much money!

For people who are ill, they want to get rid of their illness, and religious beliefs can and sometimes do give people an assurance that their illness is under control, when nothing can be further from the truth.

[cbayer]

34. And sometimes religious organizations give help and support to psychiatric patients that

no other segment of our society will provide for them.

Housing, access to treatment, funds for medicine. The list goes on and on.

[SamG]

39. Of course some do, others do not!

All in the name of their own religion.

Is the offer of humane medical treatment for those with an illness only an option for those who choose the right church? Or should we be thinking that every American, any person alive, doesn't have to find the "right" church, when they are poor and need treatment for their mental illness? Some get it, some get reinforcement for their paranoia and fantasies, like this person seemed to have gotten. Science and ethical medicine, once again intersects with religious beliefs, and with the "rights" of some people to use their religion to deny a very real illness.

And do some, no, many churches stand in the way of proper treatment for the sick, the abused children, the clueless people who happen to be mentally ill, post traumatic, minors, or others. It seems that only religious beliefs stand in the way of rational treatment for those few who get caught up in some strange religious beliefs about the Bible's message to our generation. Should not all religions look at the very human issue of mental illness, and work to advocate for proper treatment for all, rather than try to establish themselves as the "true" faith?

[cbayer]

40. Yes, all of us should advocate for the proper care of those among

us with psychiatric disorders. And shame on those who continue to villianize, marginalize or *protect* those who are ill.

[PassingFair]

74. You left out exorcism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exorcism_in_the_Catholic_Church


snip> Signs

Signs of demonic invasion vary depending on the type of demon and what it wants to do. Signs include:

Lack of appetite.
Cutting, scratching, and biting of skin.
A cold feeling in the room.
Unnatural bodily postures.
A change in the person’s voice.
Supernatural strength not subject to that person’s gender or age.
The possessed speaks in another language which they had never learned before.
Violent rejection toward all religious objects or items. <unsnip


For the record, I know a woman who has had the terrible burden of
caring for a violent schizophrenic son for decades.

She has had him exorcised TWICE. Once before he was institutionalized.
(Must have been GREAT for him: Mommy thinks there's a DEMON in you!"

And once again on an "out-day".

I feel very sorry for this woman, but I can't help but feel she is partly
to blame for her son's suffering. She still believes that there is a demon
in him.

[FarCenter]

29. She was part of Magnolia Apostolic Tabernacle

Texas Mom Daphne Spurlock Tried To Cast Out Son’s Demons With Butcher Knife

Spurlock’s relatives say she changed dramatically over the last few years and seemed obsessed by religion.

"I just didn’t see her as a normal person any more. Something had influenced her," said Lee Gresham, her brother.

Gresham and others think that Spurlock’s church, Magnolia Apostolic Tabernacle, may have played a role in Spurlock’s obsession.

"She always had a faith in God and believed in that," Lee Gresham said. "She just got in kind of way deep at this place she’s in now. She got beyond what I’ve ever seen."

"My mom said the church told her she had the power to cast demons out of people," said Channterra Gresham, Spurlock’s daughter.

The pastor of the Pentecostal church, Steve Wehrle, said his congregation is still healing, and he’s not ready to make a statement yet.

http://www.sinisterexistence.com/2012/03/texas-mom-daphne-spurlock-tried-to-cast.html

http://www.magnoliaapostolic.org/

[cbayer]

36. Well, there you go. We better exterminate the entire congregation before they kill again.

[FarCenter]

42. They should be sued for contributory negligence for telling a member they can cast out demons

Encouraging amature exorcisms should be considered clerical malpractice.

[cbayer]

43. Liability could be found if they were aware that she was having thoughts of killing

her child and did nothing under the Tarasoff decision. Unless they saw evidence that she was a danger to herself or others, there is no liability.

[eqfan592]

51. There may not be criminal liability here...

...but the fact that that this church told her she had these powers tells us they clearly enabled her obvious mental illness and contributed to the circumstances that lead to this. People who believe they hear the voice of God or Jesus in their head need to be treated for their obvious mental health problems, end of story.

[cbayer]

55. So should any and all people who experience what may be psychiatric symptoms

be forced into treatment?

Even if they pose no danger to themselves or others? That sounds very 1984ish, thought control and all.

[eqfan592]

61. There's nothing 1984ish about people who are experiencing...

...symptoms of schizophrenia being tested for it and treated if necessary.

[cbayer]

62. "If necessary", being the key words here

[eqfan592]

66. Sorry, but you're really stretching.

I'm sorry, but I'm not going to stop advocating the treatment of people with diagnosed mental disorders simply because you fear some sort of 1984 Orwellian dystopia. I think we can find a rational balance between ignoring it and mind control.

[cbayer]

92. Every state in the country has laws concerning involuntary treatment of psychiatric patients.

All attempt to reach a balance between ignoring it and mind control, but it is a complex area and no law perfectly addresses it.

Most of the laws draw the line at dangerousness, something that is often difficult to determine, particularly by lay people.

If by *advocating* you mean helping to address the abysmal lack of services, resources, and coverage for psychiatric patients,, then welcome to the team.

If you mean rooting out people with *diagnosed mental disorders* and forcing them into treatment, I don't think there is much need for that.

[eqfan592]

104. I mean the former.

Making sure everybody in this country has access to the best mental healthcare available is a very important issue for me personally, and the current state of our mental healthcare system is, just as you said, abysmal.

Sorry for the confusion!

[cbayer]

106. Then we are on the same page here. Nice talking with you.

[PassingFair]

75. ""My mom said the church told her she had the power to cast demons out of people," said Channterra..

Really, you should stop defending the delusional at this point, don't you think?

[struggle4progress]

38. ... Daphne Spurlock was arrested on an attempted capital murder charge ...

after her child was found covered in blood in their Magnolia home ... Spurlock has no previous criminal record and police have no record of calls to her home. "She never abused my little brother at all," said Channterra. "Never. She never even had a sign of trying to whoop him." Family and friends believe Spurlock had a mental breakdown ...
Daughter: Mom accused of slashing son's throat is loving person
by Leigh Frillici / KHOU 11 News
http://www.kfdm.com/shared/news/top-stories/stories/kfdm_vid_189.shtml

Doctors continue to monitor 5-year-old Michael Spurlock’s brain swelling after his mother allegedly crushed his chest and used a kitchen knife to cut his throat and stab him at least seven times ... “The mother does not have a record that we know of yet. We have not had any previous calls at that address before today,” Detective Brian Clack said during the press conference ... Daphne Spurlock was very cooperative with police, Clack said, and exuded a shocked and quiet demeanor ...
Child remains critical after throat slashing
Posted: Sunday, March 18, 2012 11:49 pm | Updated: 9:09 am, Tue Mar 20, 2012.
By Carrie Thornton
http://www.yourhoustonnews.com/courier/news/child-remains-critical-after-throat-slashing/article_4d0b2b76-827c-5c57-8cbb-d0a62dc6aa05.html

... Child Protective Services said it has no history with the family and there are no other children who live in the home. The young boy was air-lifted to Memorial Hermann Hospital after his father called 911. His mother has confessed and is in Montgomery County Jail on attempted capital murder charges ...
Houston 5-year-old boy critical after throat slit
Mother accused, charged with attempted capital murder
Mar 19 2012 11:21:39 AM CDT
http://www.ksat.com/news/Houston-5-year-old-boy-critical-after-throat-slit/-/478452/9526740/-/5q01yn/-/index.html

A fund to help cover medical expenses for a 5-year-old Magnolia boy whose mother is accused of cutting his throat has been set up at Woodforest National Bank ... Donations to The Michael Spurlock Fund will be accepted at any Woodforest National branch, a bank representative said Friday. Donations or inquiries must include the word “The” in the title, the representative said ...
Fund established for boy whose throat was cut
http://blog.chron.com/newswatch/2012/03/fund-established-for-boy-whose-throat-was-cut/

MAGNOLIA, TX (KTRK) -- Texas Children's Protective Services filed the paperwork to get custody of a 5-year-old Magnolia boy allegedly attacked by his mother. Michael Spurlock, 5, remains in a medically-induced coma after undergoing surgery ...
CPS files to get custody of boy, 5, stabbed by his mom
Tuesday, March 20, 2012
http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?section=news/local&id=8588500

The father and aunt of a boy whose throat was slashed by his mother went to court Tuesday to fight for custody of him, officials said. More than a week has passed since Michael Spurlock, 5, was found covered in his own blood. He is in an intensive care unit at Memorial Hermann Hospital and could be there for at least another month, officials said. Michael's mother, Daphne Spurlock, remains behind bars on an attempted capital murder charge ... The boy's father was not home at the time of the stabbing, but when he arrived, police said he called 911 ...
Father, aunt fight for child whose throat was slashed
Michael Spurlock, 5, in ICU; mother charged with attempted capital murder
Published On: Mar 27 2012 08:16:42 AM CDT
Updated On: Mar 27 2012 12:02:26 PM CDT
http://www.click2houston.com/news/Father-aunt-fight-for-child-whose-throat-was-slashed/-/1735978/9717936/-/bkat0l/-/

A 5-year-old Magnolia boy whose mother is accused of cutting his throat will remain in Child Protective Services custody after a hearing in Conroe Tuesday, officials said ... His next custody hearing is May 16, she said ... David Spurlock Sr., Michael's father, did not contest the state agency being Michael's managing conservator, Carter said ... "There is a lot of family, and they all want to visit," Carter said ...
Boy with slashed throat to stay in CPS custody
By Carol Christian
Published 08:57 p.m., Tuesday, March 27, 2012
http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/article/Boy-with-slashed-throat-to-stay-in-CPS-custody-3439442.php

... He was placed in CPS custody by an emergency court order, and will remain so because officials feel his father is incapable of providing necessary attention. “We are concerned about his (David Spurlock) ability to protect,” said Gwen Carter, a CPS spokesperson. “Based on our investigation, we feel like it’s in the best interest of Michael.” Although family members can visit Michael in the hospital, CPS will make legal decisions for the boy and act as his guardians. Before the next scheduled hearing May 16, Carter said, Judge Joann Otis requests the family to nominate two members for home studies to determine a possible future home for Michael ...
CPS wins custody of 5-year-old Magnolia knife victim
Posted: Tuesday, March 27, 2012 6:32 pm
Updated: 11:35 pm, Tue Mar 27, 2012
By Carrie Thornton
http://www.yourhoustonnews.com/spring/news/cps-wins-custody-of--year-old-magnolia-knife-victim/article_709ae2ea-788f-11e1-a236-001871e3ce6c.html

[rug]

41. Andrea Yates Could Be Released from Psychiatric Hospital to Attend Church

Sunday, April 01, 2012

(KERRVILLE, Texas) -- Andrea Yates, the Houston mom who in 2001 drowned her five young children one by one in the bathtub, might soon be allowed to leave the state psychiatric hospital where she is being treated for mental illness to attend church.

"She's been approved by a certain church to attend Sunday services, and I anticipate that that recommendation will be forthcoming from her doctors," Yates' attorney, George Parnham, told ABC News. He would not name the church.

- snip -

"It's always healthy for patients to be reintroduced into society, and church is a good support network and source of strength for many people," he said. "The only concern would be making sure she's no longer having any type of delusion that might affect her understanding of spiritual scripture."

After seven years of treatment, Parnham said Yates is "just as normal as you or I." He hopes conditional release for weekly church services will be the first step toward her one day living on her own and holding down a job.

http://www.masoncountydailynews.com/news/national-news/27102-andrea-yates-could-be-released-from-psychiatric-hospital-to-attend-church

The amount of ignorance about mental illness is appalling.

[cbayer]

44. No, rug. Religion is the primary cause of psychiatric disorders. It only stands to reason.

[rug]

46. I used to work for the Mental Health Unit of the Criminal Defense Division of Legal Aid in NYC.

The pain of mental illness, and the wreckage it sometimes brings to people's lives, cannot be overstated.

But it makes good snark.

[cbayer]

48. We may have crossed paths at some point, Rug.

I did some pro bono work (for an organization whose name escapes me now) from the clinical perspective.

I agree. Using this woman to make some kind of point about religion being bad is a new low here.

[rug]

50. One of these days we should compare notes.

[PassingFair]

78. "Using this woman to make some kind of point about religion being bad is a new low here."

What part of

"Mother Slits 5-Year-Old Son's Throat, Stomps on His Chest to "Release Demons"

am I misreading?

[skepticscott]

58. The "snark" comes

when most people who hear voices telling them to do things are properly diagnosed as delusional or mentally ill in some way, but when they call the voices "god" or "Jesus" or "Allah", it's considered a wonderful, glorious thing, and to call those people "delusional" is classified as bigotry and hate-mongering.

So is EVERYONE who hears the voices of "god" and "Jesus" telling them to do things mentally ill? Yes or no?

[rug]

59. That's a complete crock.

Do you actually believe any body claiming to hear the voice of God is considered to be experiencing "a wonderful, glorious thing"?

Do you actually think the woman in the OP was having a religious experience as she slit her son's throat?

Is your thinking so blunt that you equate religious beliefs and religious experiences with hearing voices? Can you discriminate between the two?

Or is it simply the word "God" that triggers an irrational reaction?

[skepticscott]

60. So why do so many people proudly proclaim

that "god" told them to do something (like run for president), or that they prayed to "god" to tell them what decision to make in their lives, and then did what "god" instructed them to? Are those people treated the same way they would be if they said that Napoleon or King Arthur was telling them what to do? Of course not. They're treated as if it's just great that "god" is speaking to them. And if that person believes they're having a religious experience, who are YOU to say they aren't?

The only thing that the word "god" triggers is (apparently) special pleading, deference and consideration.

Now answer the question: is EVERYONE who hears the voices of "god" and "Jesus" telling them to do things mentally ill? Yes or no?

[rug]

63. That's a far cry from sliiting your son's throat in a psychotic state.

The answer to your question is no. Some are just bullshitting.

[skepticscott]

67. And now the goalposts move

How predictable. So is hearing voices only mental illness if they tell you to do bad things? Please.

And I was clearly asking about people who actually hear voices, not just the ones who claim to hear voices to but are bullshitting. So answer the real question.

[rug]

70. And now come the cliches.

[PassingFair]

77. Here's a cliche....If the SHOE FITS...

wear it.

[rug]

79. Here's another:

"Another day, another dollar."

[cleanhippie]

115. You get paid to post here?

[FarCenter]

72. Politicians who believe that god is speaking to them may slit the throats of millions.

Good mental health is even more a requirement for those in positions of great power.

I worry about what god is telling Netanyahu and Amadinejad to do.

[rug]

80. Your religious bias is overcoming your political acumen.

[PassingFair]

82. Bush: God Told Me to Invade Iraq

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/1007-03.htm

[rug]

84. Bush: ''Rarely is the questioned asked: Is our children learning?''

Florence, S.C., Jan. 11, 2000

The only thing greater than Bush's stupidity is his pandering cynicism.

[PassingFair]

85. Yet the religious voted for him in droves.

Only minority groups and "unaffiliateds" had their majorities vote for Kerry in '04.

Evangelicals and "main-stream" religionists voted overwhelmingly for Bush.

http://pewresearch.org/pubs/573/religion-presidential-vote

[rug]

86. That's true but we've wandered afar from pychotic women slitting children's throats.

[PassingFair]

87. "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." Voltaire

Holds true for "....pychotic [sic] women slitting children's throats" AND for politics and war.

[rug]

89. "It's no exaggeration to say that the undecideds could go one way or another." - George W. Bush

The leap from this sick woman to your point, however, is an exaggeration.

[PassingFair]

90. I agree with post 72....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/121816953#post72

I, too, worry about religionists in positions of power.

I also stay as far away as possible from religious lunatics on the street,
and in my place of work.

[Warren Stupidity]

68. Yes the woman was having a religious experience.

She was also having a psychotic episode. You seem to think those two things are mutually exclusive. On what basis do you claim that she was not having a religious experience?

[rug]

69. The crock overfloweth.

Yes, Warren Stupidity, a psychotic episode is not a religious experience. Nor is diabetic shock or a transient ischemic attack.

[Warren Stupidity]

81. On what basis can you legitimately claim that a psychotic episode precludes a religious experience?

Perhaps you might want to rethink your position here?

Or, please define what you think a "religious experience" is and why one that happens within the context of a psychotic episode is therefore not a "religious experience".

Or continue to argue by insult. Your choice.

[rug]

83. Science.

It's wonderful.

[Warren Stupidity]

95. really? I'm fascinated. Please provide the scientific definition of a "religious experience".

[rug]

100. You can start with William James.

http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/toc/modeng/public/JamVari.html

[Warren Stupidity]

101. Maybe you ought to start there. You might learn something.

James believed that the study of the origin of an object or an idea does not play a role in the study of its value. He asserted that existential judgment, or the scientific examination of an object's origin, is a separate matter from that object's value. As an example, he alluded to the Quaker religion and its founder, George Fox. Many of the scientists in James' audience immediately reject all aspects of the Quaker religion because evidence suggests that Fox was schizophrenic. Calling this rejection medical materialism, James insisted that the origin of Fox's notions about religion should not come into account when propositioning the value of the Quaker religion. As an aside, many believe El Greco to have suffered from astigmatism, yet no one would dismiss his art based on this medical detail. James proposed, somewhat sarcastically, that his audience's atheism was perhaps a dysfunction of the liver. Some believe science to be superior to religion because of religion's seemingly vain, unfounded, or perhaps insane origin. In his lectures, James asserted that these claims, while perhaps historically or epistemologically interesting, play no role in the separate question of religion's value

Somehow I think the irony of your proposed supporting evidence is going to be lost on you.

[rug]

102. Keep reading.

[Warren Stupidity]

103. you have nothing. A psychotic episode does not in any way

preclude a religious experience.

[rug]

107. How about an epileptic seizure?

Or are you claiming psychosis is not a medical condition?

How about Tourette's? Do you also claim the content of the speech is religious?

It's a ridiculous position containing equal parts ignorance of mental illness and insult to the mentally ill.

[Warren Stupidity]

114. Jesus Christ.

No I mean that having a psychotic episode, an epileptic seizure, taking an hallucigenic drug etc. can all be associated with religious experiences, and those religious experiences are every bit as valid, as religious experiences, as any not associated with obviously otherwise abnormal states.

[jeepnstein]

117. I see your point.

Some meditation practices take you to a place where your body is not in it's normal environment. I sat in a sweat lodge with a very good friend once, and quickly found that to be the case. Some of the meditation practices I dabbled with in college are that way, too. And of course there is the Christian practice of fasting.

Of course the problem is when the psychotic episode turns into a bloody nightmare. Humans have a special affinity for doing some pretty horrific things to one another, and pretty much anything that gets in our path at times. Combine that with a misguided religious zeal and you have the real possibility for things to get out of hand. It's a problem as old as mankind itself.

[eqfan592]

52. Primary cause? Not in the least.

Enabler of? At times, absolutely.

[cbayer]

54. Can not disagree with that. But I will maintain that as many

instances of harm being done by enabling, there are at least an equal number of instances where a religious organization has *abled* by providing or securing appropriate resources for patients.

[eqfan592]

56. Perhaps.

But I still believe religion has a net negative impact on our society, and on human kind as a whole.

[cbayer]

57. I know you do and you are entitled to think that. I would only advocate that we

not throw the baby out with the bathwater.

[PassingFair]

76. Not necessarily the "primary cause" in all instances.

But it certainly CLOAKS many psychiatric disorders.

[trotsky]

91. Perhaps you can point out where someone made that exact claim.

Or if not, retract the false statement.

Thanks!

[onager]

47. Look! Over there! A militant atheist!

n/t

[cbayer]

49. Yes, onager. This is a story about a militant Christian.

[2ndAmForComputers]

123. You mean it's not?

[onager]

128. You missed the point.

I'll try to explain why, but you may have to Google "humor:"

1. Almost every time one of these Xian atrocity stories gets posted, the Usual Suspects drive it down into the weeds with posts about militant atheists etc.

2. To save them the trouble, I post the Subject line I posted (again) this time. It's an old joke for me, but I still like it.

[cbayer]

129. I googled humor and got this right at the top, but I don't really get it.

Anyway, who are the Usual Suspects and where are they driving this thread down into the weeds with posts about militant atheists?

Nothing could be further from the truth. These thread has flourished and I haven't seen a single mention of *militant atheists* except from you.

[jeepnstein]

71. I knew a woman who did that once.

She built an altar, and then drove a butcher's knife through her infant sons' heart to save him from "Satan". The crime scene was horrific and ended the careers of a couple of pretty good cops, they just couldn't handle it anymore. Halidol did wonders for her condition once we got that first dose in her at the jail. She often spoke lovingly of her son and kept pictures of him. I once asked her how killing the baby saved him from Satan and she was pretty quick to reply. "He lives right here in my head and you've seen him in action." When she was off her meds she was a a raving crazy who shouted herself hoarse to the point of sounding like a man. It was the creepiest and saddest thing I've ever experienced. She'll live out her days in a mental institution because she insists she'll kill again unless that demon in her head is kept silent.

[cbayer]

94. And therein lies a huge problem with the severely mentally ill.

Once released from prison or a hospital, there is very little in the way of community resources including shelter, access to meds, support systems, etc.

As the meds are not a difficult ride to begin with, making them hard to get is just the height of stupidity. Patients rapidly decompensate and those who have been aggressive or violent in the past have a high risk of becoming so again.

[deacon_sephiroth]

105. some links I just shouldn't click on... n/t

[struggle4progress]

109. I don't know if there is actually such a thing as demonic possession, but the language

still seems useful and expressive to me:

As far as I can tell, the whole human race acts as if it were regularly afflicted by various epidemics of demonic possession, producing all manner of bad behavior from just about everybody. Much of this bad behavior is justified, of course, by the fact that many of us quite easily see that other people are infested by demons, although hardly any of us recognize the demons we ourselves gladly host: we see that everybody else is a thieving pox-laden whore, and everybody else notices that we are thieving pox-laden whores, but none of us notices this about our own selves. By clever use of smoke and mirrors, the demons that actually infest us convince us that we ourselves are demon-free and that everyone else is infested

So poor Daphne, at the moment of her greatest affliction by demons, does not see demons in herself but in others

[muriel_volestrangler]

116. The language seems highly dangerous to me

It's equating problems, failings or illnesses, either in oneself or in others, with 'demons' - who are defined as 'evil' and something that should be fought. And that can end up, either in the case of schizophrenics like this (which can also cause self-harm), or in the case of violent controlling people who kill people they claim are 'possessed'.

You may find it 'expressive', but I fail to see what 'use' it is at all. The claim that a 'demon', that is another entity, is causing the problems, is inevitably going to lead to an attempt to expel the 'demon'. At best, that will consist of bullying and shunning by a community; at worst, violent torture and murder.

[struggle4progress]

121. Historians interested in early twenty-first century culture

may find much invention in the DU archives -- but this particular forum often runs in well-worn ruts

[muriel_volestrangler]

124. You could do something new by explaining why you think talk of 'demons' is 'useful'

Your post is, honestly, useless.

[Odin2005]

113. Ugh, sounds like Schizophrenia.