Is there such a thing as sin?

[FarCenter]

"Sin" can be defined as an act that conflicts with divine law, or in Christian religion as "an utterance, a deed, or a desire contrary to the eternal law." The Christian definition includes "thought sin".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sin
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s1c1a8.htm

Sin is only meaningful if one's concept of God includes the belief that God is aware of and cares about what humans do. Then God can be aware of sinful acts, speech and thoughts, and God can either punish the sinner during his life or reserve judgement until the afterlife, either upon death or at some judgement in an eschatological timeframe.

Conversely, sin is not meaningful if one is an atheist or if one's concept of God is limited to a cosmological God who created and sustains the universe, but is unaware of or uncaring about humans.

The question of whether sin exists is more important to political discussion than the question of whether god exists.

If sin exists, then God plays a role in human justice, either by weighing in on human affairs or by compensating in the afterlife for a life of miserable victimhood. It also gives credence to the idea that God might give property rights in specific real estate to chosen people, or might reward martyrs for their deeds by providing benefits in heaven.

If sin does not exist, then ethics and the pursuit of justice are a human endeavor, which must be carried out during life. There is no Godly thumb on the scales of justice, and there is no compensatory mechanism in an afterlife.

[saras]

1. Nope.

Sin "can" be defined like that, but it isn't the only serious definition by any means. The definition of sin I'm familiar with defines it as "missing the mark" i.e. you attempted to accomplish something, and your actions failed to do so, with harmful consequences. This is where making amends as part of forgiveness comes in. And this definition works just fine for Confucians and other disbelievers in monotheism.

Or - sin is the stuff we try to fix by calling some of it crime, allowing private lawsuits regarding some more of it, and use informal social disapproval to discourage even more of.

You don't need a God for the concept of sin, not ANY kind of God. All you need is a world that is consistent enough that actions have consequences for other people.

[Goblinmonger]

4. Sounds like your definition is more metaphorical.

Kind of like calling a girl falling in a well a tragedy.

Sin means something specific. Confucians would not use the word sin but could co-opt it to fit their philosophy.

[Ezlivin]

2. Why? What did you do now?

I'm an atheist, so sin is not in my vocabulary.

Carry on....

[Speck Tater]

3. The Buddhists do without the concpet of sin, but consider the concept of error.

Error is not something you do that offends any supreme being, but something you do that damages yourself. As one of my teachers put it, "Try sitting in serene meditation after a day of lying and stealing. You can't do it." So we avoid lying and stealing because if we do those things we are hurting ourselves. In addition, we are creating a world where lying and stealing occur, which is not the kind of world any of us really wants to live in.

As atheists, we have no heavenly afterlife to look forward to, so our best bet is to make this life as heavenly as we can, and contributing to the dishonesty and discord in the world goes against that principle. Be nice to one another, and make this a pleasant world to live in for all of us.

[cbayer]

9. I like this. I applies only to you as an individual and prohibits you from judging others.

[Speck Tater]

12. In it's purest, most original form, Buddhism is about taking care of yourself.

And it just so happens that taking care of yourself requires taking care of your community too. That's what I love about Buddhism. I can be selfish AND compassionate, atheistic AND religious, materialistic AND spiritual, and I can be a loner AND gregarious. It lets me happily embrace ALL my human contradictions.

[cbayer]

13. "It's Easier Thank You Think" by Sylvia Boorstein had a profound

impact on my life at a very critical time.

When I read the first principle, I felt more at peace than I had for years.

Embracing the contradictions is exactly what I needed to do at the time...

and still need to do today.

[Speck Tater]

15. You will find 236 of her recorded lectures here (100% free)...

http://www.dharmaseed.org/teacher/174/

[cbayer]

18. Great! Thanks.

She is going to be on with Krista Tippet this week as well.

I have never heard her speak.

[rvt1000rr]

5. My definition,

as an atheist, is that sin is the willfull unnecessary harm of another. Everything else is just window dressing.

[immoderate]

6. Generally agree...

Adding Speck Tater's view that sin is "damage to yourself" fits as well.

This is one of those dueling definitions threads.

--imm

[FarCenter]

8. Sin as an offense against an ethical, moral or legal law is rather different

It has no origin in divinity and no incurring of God's wrath, either during life or after death. Any repentance and atonement has to take place between the offender and those offended, either individually or socially.

Although such offenses can be called "sin", that is not the type of sin which involves theistic concepts.

[Humanist_Activist]

7. Sin generally means what you stated, hence why I don't use it, I prefer ethical and unethical...

to be used to define my actions, and also neutral. When I'm eating, that's a neutral action, when I'm having sex, that's a neutral example. When I open a door for someone, that's an ethical action, when I hurt someone intentionally that's an unethical action. Mistakes, unintentional actions, generally fall under the neutral category for me, simply because ethics are conscious decisions.

[msongs]

10. if no sin then churches can't extort $$ from you w/threats of eternal hell lol nt

[Thats my opinion]

11. Avoiding the bigots like 10 who believe that the concept of sin is a way for churches to extort$$--

I like the definitions of sin that some of our atheistic posters have offered. As a theist i believe sin is that which diminishes any human being or other natural beings--meaning every other thing on the earth and beyond. it is to exalt the self over others. it is to use them for our own purposes. It is to waste the life we have been given. According to Jesus, it is not the feed the hungry, clothe the naked, and offer justice to the unjustly treated by the systems of this world. It is to see a need and not to meet it. It is to waste this life. It is to dishonor God by dishonoring God's world.

The corollary words are evil, inhumanity, suffering, distrust. Sin is being less than we are called to be by our better selves, and by that which lures us on.

[Speck Tater]

14. When I was a little kid, growing up in a Catholic family

the church use to SELL these little printed cards called "indulgences" that were like heavenly get-out-of-jail-free cards. They had printed right on them how many days worth of suffering in purgatory you were excused from for buying the card. The more expensive the card, the more days of suffering you bought your way out of. Even as a 7-year old I saw that as teaching bribery and corruption. It was like, give me money and Jesus will fix your parking tickets for you.

(P.S. Officially the Catholic church says it does not condone the selling of indulgences. But as someone who grew up in a Catholic family and went to a Catholic school in the 1950's the selling of indulgences was a common practice, regardless of what the official position states to the contrary.)

At that young age my parents still made me go to church with them, but I would just bring along a science book to read. And to their credit, they didn't object.

[MineralMan]

17. The concept of sin is a religious construct...

There are ethics and behavioral norms established by societies. Sometimes, they are equivalent with some of the "sins" of the dominant religion of that society, but are quite separate from the religion. We don't have books of laws about "sins." We have torts, crimes and misdemeanors.

Sin is a religious construct, designed to keep people from violating the rules of the society where the religion developed. Using fear of retribution from the deity or deities of the religion to frighten people away from transgressions of those societal rules, even when nobody is watching, can be quite effective, but the definitions of the "sins" were created by the society, not by any deity.

Some definitions of crimes and misdemeanors are almost universal. Why? Because they cause some sort of harm to members of the society. Murder, theft, etc. So, those are sins as well as crimes in the religions of the society. Other things, like blasphemy, are purely religious in nature, and are not universal.

Religions are founded to codify the norms of a particular society. Deities are the scary entities that keep people from violating those norms, even if nobody's looking when they do. For millenia, it worked a treat. Today, not so much. Miscreants today aren't much afraid of supernatural punishers. The concept of "sins" has ceased to be useful in industrial and post-industrial societies.

[FarCenter]

19. Except that sin as defined seems only to be a concept in Abrahamic religions.

Eastern religions appear to either not have a concept of sin, or it is framed more in terms of unethical behavior that is counterproductive to the individual or society, but not a concern of God (or gods, or no god, depending).

There may be antecedents in Egyptian religion, and/or possibly the concepts derive from Zoroastrianism by accretion during the Babylonian period of Judaism. However, there are different opinions regarding whether the Abrahamic religious concept of sin applies to Zoroastrianism. Greek, Roman, and Norse gods were too busy sinning themselves to be concerned about the behaviour of men.

In short, half or more of the world's population has always gotten along without an Abrahamic religion sin concept as an enforcer of social norms.

[onager]

20. There was an ancient Egyptian idea of Final Judgment...

At least according to the papyrus shown below...which every tourist in Egypt totes back home. Along with such other essentials as cloying "homeopathic, miracle-working" perfume and a plastic Sphinx with a lightbulb in its head.

Disclaimer: I'm just a working atheist and not a theologian or Egyptologist. I did live in Alexandria, Egypt from 2005-09 and tried to learn as much as I could about the place.

So according to the ancient Egyptians, here's what happens when you go Tango-Uniform and head for the afterlife.

Starting in the upper left corner:

1. First you are greeted by the jackal-headed god Anubis. He invented embalming, which earned him a job promotion to bouncer in the nightclub of the recently croaked.

2. Anubis takes the Late You to a panel of 14 judges. These represent lesser Egytian deities, possibly the local gods of Egypt's 14 major cities. The ancient science is a little murky here.

If a majority of the judges raise their ankhs - congrats! You enter a happy afterlife. In the case of a tie or minority vote, as shown in the papyrus, you have to get over a rather major hurdle...

3. Anubis leads you to a scale. Your heart is weighed against a feather by Ma'at, goddess of truth and justice (since neither the American Way nor Superman had been invented yet). The ibis-headed god of wisdom, Thoth, records the outcome in his ledger. Which sounds suspiciously like a certain yarn about St. Peter and some Pearly Gates, but I digress. As usual.

If your heart outweighs the feather, it is heavy with evil deeds. In that case, you get to meet that charming little blue guy with the crocodile head and hippo body.

That's Ammut, who eats your evil heart and then the rest of you. Do not pass Go, do not collect an Afterlife.

But if the feather outweighs your heart, you've led a righteous life and you're in!

4. The guy holding the shepherd's crook and flail isn't the Pope, since he hadn't been invented yet either. That's Osiris, with his wife Isis and his sister Nepthys...welcoming you to the underworld! Hooray!

That hungry croco-hippo god, Ammut, is still hanging around in modern Egypt...sort of. When a modern Egyptian mom is trying to feed her baby, she'll hold the food to its mouth and say "mut-mut-mut!" Meaning, "Eat up!" A direct reference to Ammut.

At least that's what I was told by Actual Egyptians. Who amazingly enough, often know a lot about their own history - though American woo-woos often have to correct them about who REALLY built the Giza Pyramids. Do I need the sarcasm smiley?

[TheMadMonk]

21. I like the Heinlein definintion. "Sin lies only in hurting others unneccessarily. ...

All other 'sins' are invented nonsense."



And if you want to waste 1/2 hour or so. Here's a whole lot more of his quotations.

http://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/205.Robert_A_Heinlein