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SecularMotion

(7,981 posts)
Mon Mar 26, 2012, 03:07 PM Mar 2012

Can the Reason Rally resonate in this most religious of democracies?




Despite the growing number of Americans who identify their religion as "none", our politics are still dominated by supercharged religious talk. But this past weekend, in a sort of coming out party, atheists and other non-believers gathered on the National Mall last Saturday for the first-ever Reason Rally. It was their way of saying, "We're here! We're queer! Get used to it!"

The Reason Rally was modeled, in part, on gay rights activism that urged people to personalize someone they'd always thought of as an "other". That strategy – recognizing your cousin, your neighbor, your classmate, your sibling isn't straight – has fueled greater acceptance of gays and lesbians, and advances in civil rights. Everyone knows an atheist, the Reason Rally reasoning goes, and knowing an atheist goes a long way to accepting atheism.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2012/mar/26/reason-rally-resonate-religious-democracy?newsfeed=true
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Can the Reason Rally resonate in this most religious of democracies? (Original Post) SecularMotion Mar 2012 OP
Fuck that guy n/t deacon_sephiroth Mar 2012 #1
It will be difficult in the face of American Exceptionalism FarCenter Mar 2012 #2
I think the rally was a good thing and am glad it was an overall success, despite cbayer Mar 2012 #3
It resonates with the non-theists and that's all that matters longship Mar 2012 #4
That knife cuts both ways. cbayer Mar 2012 #5
I agree longship Mar 2012 #7
I regret if I have given the impression that I don't think something important is happening cbayer Mar 2012 #13
Really really WELL SAID ... Joseph8th Mar 2012 #16
I don't think Penn is a Democrat. rug Mar 2012 #6
There's the new DU3 I've been hearing about. Goblinmonger Mar 2012 #8
No, but the "peril" he warns of looks like a threat to cut the Democratic party loose. rug Mar 2012 #11
Not what I intended longship Mar 2012 #14
I saw. rug Mar 2012 #15
We're not your enemy longship Mar 2012 #9
I'm glad tama Mar 2012 #10
That is a good clarification. rug Mar 2012 #12
Agreed, again... Joseph8th Mar 2012 #17
We're a democracy? Odin2005 Mar 2012 #18
 

FarCenter

(19,429 posts)
2. It will be difficult in the face of American Exceptionalism
Mon Mar 26, 2012, 05:30 PM
Mar 2012

One strand feeding into the development of American Exceptionalism is the religious view that God has favored His people in the New World so as to enlighten the more benighted lands around the globe. To be sure, there are other strands including the development of American democracy and the free enterprise system, as well as our natural resources, that also contributed to the spirit of exceptionalism.

However, democracy and free enterprise no longer make us unique, and many of our natural resources are no longer so abundant.

Thus, the religous thread is left to carry the load of exceptionalism. The favor of God justifies our place of pride in world affairs and His followers will fight to establish their vision of a religous nation in order to be worthy of His continued blessings.

(Oddly enough, a lot of this seems to parallel Judaism and the idea of a Chosen People. British Israelism is the most obvious about it, but others, including Mormons, have their own affinities.)

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
3. I think the rally was a good thing and am glad it was an overall success, despite
Mon Mar 26, 2012, 05:47 PM
Mar 2012

the horrible weather.

As to the "nones" mentioned in this column, they are an interesting group. From much of what I have read, the answer "none" is in response to things like "What religious organizations are you affiliated with?" and the majority of these people still consider themselves spiritual or theists. They just don't, won't or can't affiliate themselves with an organization.

longship

(40,416 posts)
4. It resonates with the non-theists and that's all that matters
Mon Mar 26, 2012, 06:17 PM
Mar 2012

You theists in the Democratic party malign us atheists at your peril. We are fervently on your side.

If you don't like our rhetoric that's too bad. Understand that we are partially speaking to the possible millions of non-theists in all of our midst who need to become, like us, activated to action against a very real danger of a certain party co-opting our government for theocratic purpose.

Let us speak to our base which, by the way, is also your most fervent base. The more of us at the voting booths, the better Dems do.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
5. That knife cuts both ways.
Mon Mar 26, 2012, 06:40 PM
Mar 2012

There are many liberal and progressive theists who are on your side, and the atheists who malign all religious people also do so at their own peril.

Progressive theists and atheists have a common enemy and share some common goals.

longship

(40,416 posts)
7. I agree
Mon Mar 26, 2012, 07:32 PM
Mar 2012

But all of us liberals and Democrats are not likely to start voting Republican, especially in the current climate.

As you are possibly thinking, the independents who are also liberal religious might be turned off by the atheist rhetoric. But are they likely to then vote for a party that is so crazy religious? I don't know the answer to that, but I suspect they will do what they have done in the past, ignore the atheists and vote their conscience.

What atheists are attempting to do is, as Dennett so brilliantly puts it is to break the spell. It's not to eliminate religion but to make it a less malignant force in the world.

The elephant in the room was the 9/11 attack. It's what influenced us atheists to start saying, that's enough of this! Incredibly, the US has gone more right wing, more religious, less tolerant, less free in speech, thought, and freedom of religion since 9/11.

Us atheists just can't let this go on any longer without speaking out loudly and with passion. If theists don't like it, that's too damned bad. We've come so far down the path that it's become intolerable to many of us.

What did it for me happened two decades ago when a sitting President of the US said that atheists should not be citizens because this is a Christian country. Would you stand by if somebody said that of your beliefs whether religious or otherwise?

That is the core of the whole thing. I hope that you keep your mind open to the possibility that something important may be happening here.

Make no mistake, atheists stand strongly next to the liberal religious who undoubtedly agree with us on the excesses of the past decades.

But atheists are utterly fed up; they are becoming very activated; and we are amongst the Dem's most fervent allies, in spite of our lack of religiosity, and in spite of the puffered-up rhetoric on all sides.

Thank you for your always respectful comments.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
13. I regret if I have given the impression that I don't think something important is happening
Mon Mar 26, 2012, 09:10 PM
Mar 2012

here. I applaud the efforts of any group to decrease and eliminate the influence of the religious right on our government and politics, and have for some time. Atheists being organized to achieve this can only be a good thing and I stand firmly by your side.

Bigotry and hatred have no place in this country. Together I think we have a much better chance of challenging it than we will ever have apart.

 

Joseph8th

(228 posts)
16. Really really WELL SAID ...
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 06:13 AM
Mar 2012
Make no mistake, atheists stand strongly next to the liberal religious who undoubtedly agree with us on the excesses of the past decades. But atheists are utterly fed up; they are becoming very activated; and we are amongst the Dem's most fervent allies, in spite of our lack of religiosity, and in spite of the puffered-up rhetoric on all sides.


I really don't have much to add to that... so I'll just spew thoughts. It is interesting to me that most Nones I've talked to share a sort of disgust with the necessity of organizing -- of, basically, New Atheism, movement atheism, the like. I think this is why it's taken so long. Our individual outrage at regressive religious influence in economy, politics & gov had to exceed our common distaste for organized action. Why, I wonder?

Unless I'm mistaken, it's because atheism isn't religion. In my case, I don't think about god or other professed miracles at all, and don't want to. I don't do theology, and it's the essence of what I mean when I refer to myself as atheist. But it took some figuring out to define this for myself. That is, it took me a while to 'come out' to use the imperfect analogy, and then it took a while to be comfortable asserting myself from that position. It never occurred to me to look for help from other people, since it was ppl's supposed disingenuous 'help' that turned me off organized belief in the 1st place. I had to sort it out alone, but it helped to know other ppl had to sort it out alone, too.

It turns out that lots of other folks have had similar experiences, and are now in positions where it seems rational to work together. In that sense, movement atheism is political: it positively asserts the separation of church and state. Outreach efforts by American Atheists and FFRF etc have also focused on 'coming out' campaigns, positively asserting 'you are not alone, we're here, get used to it'. Contrast this with organized religious efforts to win followers. I think this has helped win atheists to support a movement. Very few of us have patience for navel-gazing about why we don't believe. Even fewer have patience for (or interest in) explaining why we don't believe to believers. That movement atheism doesn't have patience either helps overcome suspicions that this is a belief-system in disguise.
 

rug

(82,333 posts)
6. I don't think Penn is a Democrat.
Mon Mar 26, 2012, 07:13 PM
Mar 2012

And what is this: "You theists in the Democratic party malign us atheists at your peril." What peril? The only electoral peril is you won't vote; you'll vote third party; or you'll vote republican. None of these perils is within the TOS.

 

Goblinmonger

(22,340 posts)
8. There's the new DU3 I've been hearing about.
Mon Mar 26, 2012, 08:14 PM
Mar 2012

So you're ready to cut the atheists lose, huh? We're a bigger voting block than the Jews and the seem to get a lot of political love.

longship

(40,416 posts)
14. Not what I intended
Mon Mar 26, 2012, 09:18 PM
Mar 2012

The peril is what I expressed More succinctly in post #9.

Jesus! (so to speak) Join with us in spite of mere rhetorical differences. We're all on the same page.

Later, we can start throwing chairs about rhetoric.

longship

(40,416 posts)
9. We're not your enemy
Mon Mar 26, 2012, 08:23 PM
Mar 2012

I tried to get into this in my response to cbayer, above, but I confess that I missed the target somewhat. My bad.

The peril is that the opposition will use these squabbles as a weapon against the whole argument that all of us should be making together. That a major party of the most politically, militarily powerful nation on the planet has been co-opted by an extremist philosophical cabal which uses their religiosity to stifle debate and uses their economic power to beat down their opposition.

Many of us see the history of this as demonstrating that they wouldn't have one without the other. An example is: why would so many Americans be voting for something which is manifestly against their best interests? I'm sure that sociologists and political scientists could study this for decades and possibly not come to a definitive answer.

I think John Dean's book Conservatives Without Conscience was one of my revelations to the whole process of the authoritarian personality which he claims to be a good chunk of the problem. My interpretation, along with many atheists, is that the authoritarians in the Republican party wield religion as an instrument of authority. That's why they act the way tgey do. It makes for a fucking dangerous and toxic mix.

That's why us atheists are becoming militant. We're frightened of what could happen if this isn't checked before it's too late. No wonder the rhetoric is inflamed with passion. (as is this post )

I hope that I've clarified what I see as the core of the issue.

 

tama

(9,137 posts)
10. I'm glad
Mon Mar 26, 2012, 09:01 PM
Mar 2012

that I don't live in U.S of America. I would hate to choose between either arm of the corporate imperialistic party... manifestly against their best interest.

In last parliamentary election I voted Pirate Party candidate and last presidential election the Green openly gay candidate (married to a South American hair-dresser guy) who made into the second round against the conservative candidate - who won.

I very much agree that the authoritarian personality is at the core of our problems - I'm an anarchist - but the problem does not exactly follow the dividing lines between conservative-progressive or theist-atheist. I see it mainly as a structural problem of hierarchical power systems.







 

Joseph8th

(228 posts)
17. Agreed, again...
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 06:25 AM
Mar 2012

There's a time for internal debate and a time for solidarity and common cause. I think we need the squabbles, but this is an election year. This again suggests that movement atheism is political. I wouldn't be surprised if New Atheism evaporates once the separation of church and state is reasserted (optimistically speaking).

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