So... The topic of the day is: "Which religious position is mental illness?"

[DetlefK]

DU is oozing with passive-aggressiveness.

"I'm not saying that this particular opinion is flat-out crazy, but come on, who thinks that this particular opinion is flat-out crazy?"

[hrmjustin]

1. And if we defend ourselves we are just asserting our religious privilege.

[stone space]

2. People should keep in mind that...

...if they answer "atheist" they run the risk of being hidden for violation of DU standards regarding incivility in religious discussions.

[amuse bouche]

3. Atheism is not a religion.

Why can't 'you people' get that?

[cbayer]

6. "you people"!

[hrmjustin]

7. What do you mean by you people?

[stone space]

9. I assume she means atheists.

What do you mean by you people?

[amuse bouche]

16. You know what they say about assuming

#1 you will be wrong...and you are wrong

[cbayer]

18. Good advice. You ought to consider heeding it.

[stone space]

19. Well, the post was directed to me.

I take your point about assuming. I shouldn't have assumed you meant Atheists.

By "you people", did you mean Mathematicians?

Pacifists?

Socialists?

[amuse bouche]

26. No, I meant ignorant people

e.g. people who think atheism is a religion

[stone space]

34. Oh, I see.

It was just a mindless personal insult.

[amuse bouche]

35. Ignorant is not an insult

It's a fact

[stone space]

36. I wonder what folks like you believe they gain...

...from mindless personal insults?

[amuse bouche]

38. "mindless personal insults" Some might say...You mean like your deleted poll ?

Look in the mirror bubba

[hrmjustin]

40. Yet you had no issue with the other poll.

[stone space]

43. I don't see the connection with my poll. (nt)

[cbayer]

41. It is a shallow victory indeed. Pay no attention.

You are better than this.

[Starboard Tack]

59. Alors! Mme Bouche

Do you mean "You are wrong" or "You people are wrong"?

[cbayer]

11. You know, you people.

[amuse bouche]

22. You misssed the (" "), the point

and the boat

[hrmjustin]

23. What was the point of you people? What did you mean?

[cbayer]

25. Again, you used to be much better at this.

[amuse bouche]

27. Better? how so?

[cbayer]

28. You know, clever, acerbic.

Perhaps your forced vacation took a bite out of your wit.

[stone space]

8. We atheists can be a little slow at times.

Why can't 'you people' get that?

Or perhaps a belief that there is no God or Gods might be considered as a "religious position", regardless as to whether atheism itself is a religion or not.

[amuse bouche]

10. "there is no God or Gods might be considered as a "religious position"

moronic to the nth degree

[cbayer]

12. You used to be much better at this.

[amuse bouche]

13. You must be thinking of your other imaginary friend

and that most definitely is not me

[cbayer]

14. Yep, she is better at this as well.

You might need a refresher course.

[amuse bouche]

4. I vote all the above

"I'm not saying that this particular opinion is flat-out crazy, but come on, who thinks that this particular opinion is flat-out crazy?"

So then... all in with crazy. That's such a nice way to put it

[cbayer]

5. I have no idea what you are saying here. None.

[DetlefK]

15. Thread after thread here on DU.

Did you know that delusions officially no longer count as a mental illness if they are related to a religion?
What's up with religion and mental illness?
Who thinks religion is a mental illness?
Who thinks atheism is a mental illness?
Scientology is especially stupid, isn't it?

[cbayer]

17. It's the argument of the weak.

Accusing others of being psychiatrically disordered because they disagree with you is the position of children.

"You're crazy, nuts, loony toons, bonkers, out of your mind", etc. etc.

When one has no viable position, accuse your opponent of being crazy

That's the ticket.

[stone space]

20. Who?

Who thinks religion is a mental illness?

Uben, Polly Hennessey, 4now, Tribalceltic, amuse bouche, MrMickeysMom, Denver Progressive, Applan, cultmember666, skippy66, BlueJazz, dballance, Brettongarcia, ChairmanAgnostic, juxtaposed, MellowDem, TexYellowDogDem, Politicalboi, on point, ReRe, phil89, Paolo123, lstacyb

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1218146997

Who thinks atheism is a mental illness?

No names here. The poll was sitting at 0-8 when the poll got deleted.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1218147328

[amuse bouche]

29. Still whining, eh? At least 3x now

[stone space]

33. Not whining at all.

Somebody asked a question. I answered it.

[longship]

21. I refuse to participate in the continual baiting.

And there's nothing passive about it. It is childish.

[cbayer]

30. And that is why I have nothing but respect for you.

I have gotten sucked in and will regret it, of that I am sure.

Weak when tired, that's my only excuse.

You are much stronger than I, my friend.

[longship]

31. Obviously, too much travel...

Oh, to have such a curse. Even in summer I have cabin fever.

[cbayer]

32. Are you not getting out and about?

Travel is the salve of the soul. I don't think I can ever stay in one place again.

Hope you are well and happy, despite your cabin fever.

I have taken up Italian cooking an am loving every bite of it.

[longship]

37. Cannot afford travel.

I am on fixed income (SocSec).

But I gotta love Italian cooking, Italian opera, Italian Art, almost anything Italian.

Have some for me, my friend. Yummy!

I am fine. But had to spend much of my savings to put my nearly 20 year Volvo back on the road the other day (brakes + steering). 15 miles from nearest auto repair here. Thank goodness for good friends for transportation. It's going to be tough here this next winter. At least my snow tires are still fairly good.

As always.

[cbayer]

39. How about just some local day trips?

Surely there are places in your area that merit a day with a picnic?

Italy is outstanding. We are in a region with virtually no tourists, though the reasons of that escape me. Surrounded by medieval towns on hills and exceptional food. I feel privileged to be here before the masses discover it.

Visit us in the Cooking and Baking groups sometime. It's filled with great people and wonderful ideas for your eating pleasure.

So sad about your car. Sure wish you were in a more hospitable corner of the world.

Are you still having your Saturday pub services?

[longship]

44. Ahem! Services are on Sunday, not Saturday.

We call it the Sunday Seminar. Been doing it for decades. It started in Wichita, KS, when I lived there. I brought it up north when I moved here. All topics are on the table. Passion is allowed; assholery isn't.

The idea is to solve all the enigmas of the universe over draft beer. Unfortunately, the whole thing unravels by the next week. So we have to do it all over again the next Sunday. I'll tell you, it's tough work. But somebody has to do it -- propping up the universe one beer at a time. Makes me tired just thinking about it.


Can always use more help. Maybe that's why I post here at DU.

As always.

[cbayer]

53. Whoops! Of course it is on Sunday.

It sounds like great fun. I wish I had something similar in my weekly schedule. DU supplies some of that, but it's not the same as sitting around with real people drinking real beer.

[MellowDem]

24. I'll give you some I find to be especially obvious...

My position is that all delusions are harmful, some more than others. Here are some I find blatantly so.

- belief in hell
- belief god will be angry if you have sex before marriage
- belief other loved ones could be suffering for eternity
- belief on demons/angels
- belief that you are inherently broken
- belief that a human sacrifice can pay for your wrongdoings

I could go on and on, and these are mainstream delusions.

[trotsky]

42. A serious question would be, "Which particular religious beliefs are signs of mental illness...

... and which are OK/sincere/normal?"

I don't know where the line is drawn. Does anyone else?

[Dorian Gray]

45. I can't believe I'm earnestly answering this

but I would say that no beliefs are a sign of mental illness. Though those who are mentally ill might be attracted to particular leaders/beliefs/systems. For a variety of reasons.

But then I guess people can be indoctrinated into stuff. I don't necessarily think that's mental illness, though.

[trotsky]

46. I'm glad you are, DG, because I feel there is a valid discussion to be had.

I think there is a middle ground between "all believers are mentally ill" and "ZOMG, it's bigotry to call any belief a delusion!"

From the DSM-5:

A mental disorder is a syndrome characterized by clinically significant disturbance in an individual's cognition, emotion regulation, or behavior that reflects a dysfunction in the psychological, biological, or developmental processes underlying mental functioning. Mental disorders are usually associated with significant distress or disability in social, occupational, or other important activities.

Reading that, I think some religious beliefs may qualify. There are religions - many branches of Christianity, in particular - that teach even the mildest sin will result in the sinner going to hell. Such a belief can often prove to be a "significant disturbance" in an individual's behavior - causing them to engage in outrageous purification rituals seeking forgiveness or engaging in penance. The fear of sin can sometimes prove so debilitating that there's even a name for it - hamartophobia.

[Dorian Gray]

48. Don't you think that certain

people are attracted to certain punitive sects? I believe that what you described is very unhealthy, and abusive (or previously abused) people can be attracted to that type of religious group, but I'm still not sure how it's delusional. Mental disorders are relatively common in society, though. I guess can religion cause a mental disorder or can mental disorders be exacerbated by religious indoctrination may be a "chicken or an egg" type question. Or a "blame the video game for violence in the US" type situation.

[trotsky]

49. But not everyone chooses their religion.

Do you think it's possible, if a child is indoctrinated in a religion that teaches him or her that they are worthless, sinful, deserving punishment, and told over and over all the acts that will land them in hell, that for some individuals, it could create a mental illness or problem?

And too, note that what I asked was whether certain religious beliefs could be a *sign* of mental illness, not necessarily a *cause*.

[Dorian Gray]

50. I assume that

if a child is brought up in that type of religion, the household is also that type of household. (Why else would the parents be attracted to that in the first place? And yes, that can be repeated throughout generations.)

Being told you are worthless, whether by parents, religious leaders, or anyone else takes a toll on your mental health. Of course.

[trotsky]

51. So are we in agreement, then?

Can certain religious beliefs can be a sign of mental illness?

[Marrah_G]

57. I don't think that religion is a sign of mental illness

Last edited Thu Aug 21, 2014, 02:33 AM - Edit history (1)

But I do think some religious practices can cause mental illness (such as depression). Also some forms of mental illness make people more prone to extreme religious beliefs. I think the harm comes from the extreme, not from religion itself.

[cornball 24]

54. I'm dipping my toe in here with something that may or may not be relevant to the discussion.

I have recently heard this and I am not quoting verbatim. In addition, I do not know where it originated. But here it is:
He who believes in an angry God leads an angry life.

[trotsky]

55. I think there's a good amount of truth in that quote. n/t

[Warren Stupidity]

47. Actually the question is "why shouldn't religious beliefs be considered delusions?"

And so far I've heard not one good reason for why they shouldn't.

[rug]

52. If youre into evading your burdens.

[Marrah_G]

56. I think that in the US alot of people have never had their beliefs challenged

Then comes the internet and people who have never had it questioned before and probably hadn't even conceived of being questioned or called nuts or delusional before the internet don't quite know how to handle it.

I am a Wiccan living in a land/world of Abrahamic religions. It doesn't bother me if people think I am nuts or delusional, in fact I guess more often then not, I expect it. As a Priestess, if I got upset over what people thought of my religion and feeling like I needed to defend it, I would not have time to do much else. What someone else thinks of my beliefs has no bearing on my beliefs. I realize some people think I am delusional and it's okay for them to think I am delusional. I respect their right to their own viewpoint.

My suggestion to people is to realize that not everyone shares, understands or even wants to understand your beliefs or lack thereof. Unless that person is causing you HARM, does it really matter what they think? Is it really worth getting upset over?

This also goes the opposite way: What does it matter to you if someone else is religious or not religious? If their religion or lack thereof is is causing harm in some way, speak out against the harmful behavior. If it is not causing harm, just leave them be.

religious, not religious...who cares, just try to treat other human beings with respect and dignity. You can question without being a jerk and you can defend without being a jerk.

Life is to short to be a jerk

[cbayer]

58. Excellent post and I think you sum it up really well.

I don't understand the need to attack others either for their beliefs or lack of beliefs. It's so much easier to look for differences instead of finding common ground, but it accomplishes nothing.