Were the people of the Jonestown community suffering from a mass delusion?

[Warren Stupidity]

They committed suicide as a group, nearly 1000 people. They were deeply religious. I consider their behavior a clear cut case of psychotic mass delusion. If 1000 people can be indoctrinated into a state psychotic delusion, why is it beyond the realm of possibility that people are routinely indoctrinated into non-psychotic delusions?

[rug]

1. If there were even a kernel of fact in your post, humans would have died out millenia ago.

http://www.guyana.org/features/jonestown.html

How do you explain this?

Cultish behavior and manipulation is not confined to religion.

[amuse bouche]

3. Not watching, but that looks like a dictator aka self imposed God

instilling fear and demanding conformance from the masses or else. Same type of script as most religions

[rug]

6. Ah, Kim Jong Un was god and the KCP is a religion.

That's the ticket!

[amuse bouche]

8. Now you got it. Same mindeset

[rug]

9. You didn't.

[cleanhippie]

4. In North Korea, the poeple are indoctrinated to believe that Kim Jong, and now Kim Il, are gods.

It's the State Religion. Here's but one example..

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/north-korean-defector-says-she-believed-kim-jongil-was-a-god-who-could-read-her-mind-9251983.html


Cults are Religions.

[rug]

7. See # 6.

Actually that was a very common anti-Communist argument in the 50s. Congratulations.

[On the Road]

16. So the Anti-Communists Were Right?

Seems pretty clear from North Koreans themselves that Kim Jong Un, Kim Jong Il, and Kim Il Sun are all considered gods. Difficult to see how characterize the official state belief system of DPRK as anything other than religious in nature.

[cleanhippie]

17. His rofl smiley is a really, REALLY convincing argument.

You just can't argue with that.

[rug]

36. Would you like it back?

I was only borrowing it from you.

Let me see, your little puking smiley is around here somewhere too.

[rug]

35. They were right all right, right wing.

If you think the Kims are considered gods, you understand neither gods nor totalitarian state capitalism.

[On the Road]

56. Certainly They are Considered Gods`

Just as surely as Chinese emperors were considered divine beings. Perhaps you are evaluating the term 'god' from a monotheistic tradition.

[rug]

57. Um, no. I'm considering them as supernatural entities.

[amuse bouche]

2. I love when people call themselves deeply religious.

Like that is something to be admired

psychotic mass delusion = sheep love being sheep


What about The Heavens Gate nuts? Gotta love religies for their entertainment factor

[rug]

5. I wish there was video of your posts.

[amuse bouche]

10. Well just pray for it real real hard

[rug]

12. I don't think you'd have made the cut for July.

[AtheistCrusader]

11. And possibly the most fiscally sound retirement plan, ever.

[Htom Sirveaux]

13. Deeply religious?

Jones preached against religion:

The Peoples Temple was formed in Indianapolis, Indiana, during the mid-1950s.[4] Though its roots and teachings shared more with biblical church and Christian revival movements than with Marxism, it purported to practice what it called "apostolic socialism".[5][6] In doing so, the Temple preached that "those who remained drugged with the opiate of religion had to be brought to enlightenment — socialism."[7][8]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonestown

[amuse bouche]

14. All cults aren't religions but all religions are cults

[Htom Sirveaux]

18. That's too simple.

There are some key distinctions between the UCC church down the street and Jonestown, distinctions that are ignored by an indiscriminate use of the word "cult," given the negative connotations popularly associated with the word.

[Starboard Tack]

28. You sir, are a very patient man.

I thought I was patient, but you bring the meaning of the word to a whole new level. Maybe I'm getting old.

[Htom Sirveaux]

44. Thank you for your kind words!

[Warren Stupidity]

21. It actually doesn't matter much if you consider them religious or not.

There are plenty of other examples. And religiosity would only be critical if it were the only way to induce mass delusions. It isn't. I'm not making that claim. It is merely one way.

[okasha]

22. Htom, Htom.

There you go again, dragging facts into the discussion. You know that's frowned on.

[hrmjustin]

15. Not all of the committed suicide.

[Mariana]

38. That's true, but most of them did.

The fact that some of them also murdered other members of the group (including small children) doesn't make it any better.

[hrmjustin]

39. No it doesn't but they did not all commit suicide and they should be made clear.

[Maedhros]

19. They were victims of a charismatic leader, who used religious themes in his social engineering.

Others have used nationalistic and/or racist themes. The key is the social engineering.

[Warren Stupidity]

20. Sure, completely agree. So indoctrination can result in mass delusions.

Now lets take a look at organized religion and apply our knowledge that indoctrination can result in mass delusions.

[Maedhros]

25. I'm an atheist. As such, I don't appreciate your antagonism toward religion.

That chip on your shoulder is an impediment to enlightenment.

[Starboard Tack]

29. Ouch!

[MellowDem]

41. Your being an atheist has nothing to do with what you do and don't appreciate...

If you want to be snarky, at least try to make sense.

Criticizing ideas aren't impediments to enlightenment. If you think criticizing an idea is antagonistic, then you're the one impeding "enlightenment".

[Maedhros]

43. There seems to be a contingent of self-proclaimed atheists on this board that are intent

on antagonizing believers and sneering at their beliefs. This is neither constructive nor conducive to the discussion of ideas. I have since put that poster on ignore, since their repetitious and frankly un-enlightened viewpoints are tiresome.

As are yours! Bye.

[trotsky]

46. There is a self-proclaimed non-believer on this board who admitted to...

laughing while reading the Book of Mormon on their road trip through Utah. Would you consider that "sneering at beliefs"?

[MellowDem]

48. You think pointing out...

The similarities between one type of religious delusion and another is "antagonistic". It's not. Some atheists do sneer at beliefs. Because they're terrible and harmful. DU sneers at conservative ideas.

Creating sacred cows that can't be touched because some people can't handle criticism of ideas is neither constructive nor conducive to discussion. However, if someone is easily offended but can't deal with why, ignore is their best friend. It's the best way to never deal with being insecure in one's own beliefs. Don't look at criticism of it.

[Warren Stupidity]

53. im deeply offended.

[rug]

55. Start another thread about it.

[Starboard Tack]

30. Apply what knowledge Warren?

Apples are green, therefore oranges must be juicy?

[On the Road]

23. "They committed suicide as a group, nearly 1000 people."

Well, not quite all of them...

To a certain extent, the actions in Jonestown were viewed as a mass suicide; some sources, including Jonestown survivors, regard the event as a mass murder.

Clayton said that Jones approached people to encourage them to drink the poison and that, after adults saw the poison begin to take effect, "they showed a reluctance to die."[143] Wikipedia article

There is also the question of how to characterize the nature of the community and the motive for the suicides:

Jones' recorded readings of the news were part of the constant broadcasts over Jonestown's tower speakers, such that all members could hear them throughout the day and night.[48] Jones' news readings usually portrayed the United States as a "capitalist" and "imperialist" villain, while casting "socialist" leaders, such as Kim Il-sung,[49] Robert Mugabe,[50] and Joseph Stalin[51] in a positive light.

On October 2, 1978, Soviet dignitary Feodor Timofeyev visited Jonestown for two days and gave a speech.[82] Jones stated before the speech that, "For many years, we have let our sympathies be quite publicly known, that the United States government was not our mother, but that the Soviet Union was our spiritual motherland."[82] Timofeyev opened the speech stating that the U.S.S.R. would like to send "our deepest and the most sincere greetings to the people of this first socialist and communist community of the United States of America, in Guyana and in the world."[82] Both speeches were met by cheers and applause from the crowd in Jonestown.[82]

On the tape, Jones urged Temple members to commit "revolutionary suicide".[136] Such "revolutionary suicide" had been planned by the Temple before and, according to Jonestown defectors, its theory was "you can go down in history, saying you chose your own way to go, and it is your commitment to refuse capitalism and in support of socialism."[140]

To use the logic currently in vogue, Jonestown should apparently be blamed on socialism. Certainly religion was not the issue. It's a perfect example of why the thought process is foolish and simpleminded.

[Leontius]

24. What was their delusion?

[Kablooie]

27. Their delusion would be that Jim Jones had supernatural knowledge of the universe

and that they would be better off following him unquestioningly.

[notadmblnd]

26. What? That their leader was a man of God? Yes, they were delusional when it came to that

[Starboard Tack]

31. How'd that one work out Warren?

Get any traction? Ok, what do you have next for our entertainment?

[Warren Stupidity]

32. Its working out fine actually.

Delusions are the topic of the day. Jealousy is such a nasty emotion.

[Starboard Tack]

33. Goody! Doesn't look too good from here.

Got the jealousy thing going too? Cool. Gotta link?

[stone space]

37. I'm jealous.

I wanna know how he does it.

[Starboard Tack]

42. Hmm! Lemme think!!

Entitlement, maybe?

At moments like this, my friend, a reading of Kipling's IF might be in order.

If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
But make allowance for their doubting too;
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or being lied about, don’t deal in lies,
Or being hated, don’t give way to hating,
And yet don’t look too good, nor talk too wise:

If you can dream—and not make dreams your master;
If you can think—and not make thoughts your aim;
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you’ve spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,
And stoop and build ’em up with worn-out tools:

If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings
And never breathe a word about your loss;
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: ‘Hold on!’

If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
Or walk with Kings—nor lose the common touch,
If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you,
If all men count with you, but none too much;
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds’ worth of distance run,
Yours is the Earth and everything that’s in it,
And—which is more—you’ll be a Man, my son!

[edhopper]

34. If they were religious they weren't deluded

If they were deluded they couldn't be religious.
The same for Heaven's Gate, Moonies, Children of God....
Thought you understood that?

[Warren Stupidity]

51. I'm going through the list one by one.

I just love hearing the explanations. Maybe I can come up with some new ones we haven't already dismissed.

[ZombieHorde]

40. I took intro to psychology, so I am an expert on all things related to the mind.

Just kidding. Well, I did take intro to psych, but it was truly just an introduction. I don't really know what psychologists mean when they use the word "delusion." I don't know the difference between having a delusion and being mistaken.

[trotsky]

47. "Delusion" generally carries the additional information that the belief is held...

despite reasonable evidence to the contrary. In that regard, I think just about all of us are delusional or deluded about something or other.

[Warren Stupidity]

52. As a software engineer I can assure you that delusions are commonplace.

But I have to go code up some bugs, I've got bills to pay.

[Starboard Tack]

45. Nothing is beyond the realm of possibility, Warren

You should be one of the first to realize that.

[Lordquinton]

49. I guess the main take away from this thread

Is that not all of them commited suicide, therefore you are wrong and antagonistic to religion.

[Warren Stupidity]

50. plus communists!

As I said, I certainly am not making the claim that only religion is associated with mass delusions.

[on point]

54. Yes. They believed the religious clap trap they were fed