Stop confusing belief with faith. They are not the same thing.

[Viva_Daddy]

As a matter of fact, I submit that belief is the OPPOSITE of faith.

Whereas FAITH is actually a trusting openness to life (or "God's will), belief is an expression of a closed mind, one that is already made up and is no longer open to life or change.

"Belief" is literally what I "wish" was so, whereas "faith" is an openness to accept what is.

[msongs]

1. faith is also "an openness to accept what" isn't, especially as it applies to religion nt

[Ron Obvious]

2. I don't think I really get the distinction.

"Belief" is literally what I "wish" was so

Sounds like a perfect definition of faith to me.

[elleng]

3. I agree with your headline,

and disagree with the substance of your post.

I have no 'faith' in things I cannot see. I 'believe' that nature determines everything, whether we understand it or not.

[HockeyMom]

4. They always called it faith to me in Catholic school

when I questioned their doctrine as illogical. "Matter of faith" whether illogical or not. I couldn't reconcile it as a teenager, let alone an adult.

[rock]

5. Though 'OPPOSITE' is not exactly the word I would use.

I would use the phrase CONTRASTS WITH. Your usage seems OK to me but not what I'm used to. But hey we are talking English which is not a formal language so we are allowed to have variation that cannot precisely be pinned down.

[edhopper]

6. they are both used in so many different ways that

they need to be defined for each conversation.

[cbayer]

13. I agree with this.

When someone uses these terms, it makes sense to ask them to define them before jumping to conclusions based on your own definition.

[edhopper]

18. It's not just one's own definition

it is the multiple uses. When it comes to religion I would say i have no faith. On the other hand i might say I have faith Obama will do the right thing in Iraq, for instance.
I don't believe in God, but I believe in a constitutional democracy, these are different uses.

[cbayer]

20. Your faith in Obama and lack of faith regarding religion are

just two sides of the same coin and don't require a change in definition. Same for belief.

We all have different beliefs and different levels of faith in certain things.

I believe that all of my children are wonderful people, but my faith in their judgement varies, lol.

[edhopper]

23. I use them differently

faith in God seems to be accepting his existence without evidence. Faith in Obama is just the hope he does the right thing, taking into consideration that he has acted wisely so far. (this is just an example, not want to really discuss Iraq).

Belief in God is a belief that an unseen entity is there. Belief in a constitutional democracy is saying I think this is a good form of government. There isn't a question of the existence of Constitutional democracies, my belief is really an opinion of it's worth. Different uses.

[cbayer]

24. It seems to me the only difference is that you do have it

in one instance and don't have it in another.

Can you think of an example where you have faith in two things, but it means something different. Or belief?

[edhopper]

25. I just did

Faith in God isn't that I think he is a good God, it's that he exists at all. Faith in Democracy is that I have a good opinion of it as a form of government.
Sorry if you can't see the difference.
I believe Obama would make a better Pres than McCain is just a statement of opinion based on their positions and history and my outlook. Belief in angels is accepting something without evidence, not an opinion, but a statement of fact, at least for that person.

[trotsky]

28. Yet that's exactly what you did in post #14.

Right after you wrote this one, creepily enough.

[Hoppy]

7. Faith is trying your best to believe in something you know can't possibly be true.

[cbayer]

14. So if you have faith in the ones you love, you actually believe that they can't

possibly live up to it.

That there is a really sloppy definition, but I suspect you only meant to apply it to religious believers.

[Hoppy]

15. You can trust other people to do only what they are going to do. That includes the ones you love.

You can have faith in them but it ain't always gonna be rewarded with fulfilled expectations. If this weren't so, we wouldn't want wedding vows. We would just go along with faith that my chick wouldn't be schtupping the guy next door.

That expectation of faith is more reliable than faith in an invisible being helping the Yankees to beat the shit out of the Sox, just because I lit a candle and ....

[cbayer]

16. But that's not consistent with the definition that you gave above.

Are you modifying that definition? Or do you just use a different definition when it come to religion as opposed to other things?

I like your revised definition and think it also applies to people's religious faith. It's a trust in something that you can't really predict or prove but you want it to be true and hope that it is. Wedding vows are a great example.

You find that more reliable that a faith in god, but others feel differently. When it comes to sports, so many people have rituals and whether they are religious or not, pretty much everyone knows that they are merely superstitions. But that's not the kind of faith I was talking about.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

32. You get married, you have to make explicit verbal vows or promises to love, honor and cherish.

They could be lying or they could be truthful. It's a civil contract so not quite the best of examples.

I don't have faith in things that I have no evidence of. Or belief. I try to run my life based on facts. Such as how people behave. Or the fact that the sun and moon rise and set at certain times in certain places, and we can calculate that exactly.


George Carlin said he should worship the sun because he knows it will come up every morning. That it requires no faith.

[BanzaiBonnie]

8. I take the use belief differently

You are perfectly free to define belief that way if you wish. Discussing definitions so everyone is on the same page or at least knows the working parameters, is crucial to any discussion.

I understand that there are those who use the term belief in a closed manner.

There are things I believe and things I know. I know that I don't know much for sure. My belief may change depending on additional information.

My faith relates more to my hope for the future. It is open and all encompassing.

One thing I know is that there will always be life. Life fights to live. It will likely be different, it may not be on this planet or in the same way at all, but there will always be life... somewhere.

I know I am an expression of life. It is my belief that I am part of a whole, expressing in a particular manner, here and now.

[Maedhros]

9. "Faith" is the trust that one's belief is valid. [n/t]

[cheapdate]

10. That works. n/t

[okasha]

11. Most useful post on the thread. Thanks.

[cbayer]

12. They are clearly different things, but are often traits found together.

Particularly when it comes to religion.

I don't think they are the opposite at all.

Those that believe there is a god have not necessarily closed their minds. Their concept of what that means can be extremely vague and unformed.

Faith just means that they hold this belief despite there being no hard evidence to confirm it.

At any rate, one of the reason that I and others like the term agnostic is because that is where the real openness lies. For some, saying that you do not believe is as restrictive as saying you do.

[skepticscott]

21. Speak for yourself

If you've restricted your own thinking and rejected any possibility that any "god" may exist, that's your business. But don't spread the falsehood that all or even very many atheists take that rigid stance, and that only those who rather uncourageously call themselves "agnostics" are truly open-minded.

[Evoman]

17. by the gods I hate both those words

They have so many definitions and baggage hanging on them that you can't use them to discuss or argue about religion. They are such broad words and they give sneaky little theists the means to tell us we also have faith and beliefs in order to create false equivalency between religion and atheism. I hate word games. They are a waste of time, especially when everyone knows what we really mean when we use those words to describe secular concepts but they pretend we mean something else to win a fake point.

[Starboard Tack]

19. You hate word games?

Then you are probably in the wrong place, my friend. DU and similar sites are all about word games.

[Evoman]

26. no I'm the right place

Someties you need a big hammer that smashes idiotic word arguments with a nice beating of truth.

[trotsky]

29. Well fucking said, Evoman. n/t

[Starboard Tack]

22. Belief and faith are different, but not the opposite.

Belief is not an expression of a closed mind. It is a surrendering of the need to prove something in absolute terms. Belief does not necessitate any expectations. It may be based on hope or just plain assumption.

Whereas faith is about trusting either oneself, or another entity to live up to one's expectations.
Those expectations should be based on past experience, in order not to be terribly disappointed. Regardless, there are no guarantees in life.

[AtheistCrusader]

27. No.

World English Dictionary

belief (bɪˈliːf)

— n
1. a principle, proposition, idea, etc, accepted as true
2. opinion; conviction
3. religious faith
4. trust or confidence, as in a person or a person's abilities, probity, etc


You don't get to re-define English just because the implications of a word bother you.

[stone space]

30. I don't see belief as an expression of a closed mind. (nt)

[Jim__]

31. I believe.

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A closed mind?