Philadelphia mosque leaders try to cut off man's hand -police

[Eugene]

Source: Reuters

Philadelphia mosque leaders try to cut off man's hand -police

BY DANIEL KELLEY
PHILADELPHIA Fri Jul 18, 2014 7:40pm EDT

(Reuters) - Two men described as leaders of a Philadelphia mosque were accused of trying to cut off the hand of a suspected thief, whose wrist was sliced so deeply it required hospital treatment, police said on Friday.

The 46-year-old victim said two officials in the mosque accused him of stealing jars of money from the house of worship after morning prayers on Monday.

The officials, described in police reports as the mosque's imam and amir, dragged the victim to the rear of the mosque, and attempted to chop off his hand with a machete, according to a police statement.

He sustained a severe laceration to his right wrist, and was transported to a nearby hospital by medics.

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Read more: http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/07/18/us-usa-mosque-philadelphia-idUSKBN0FN2PW20140718

[edhopper]

1. So what's the concensus

on the belief that God wants people to cut off the hands of thieves.

I am not talking about the act, I am talking about the motivation because they think it is God's will.

[cbayer]

9. Or they might just be a couple of shysters who were pissed off because they thought

someone was ripping them off.

[edhopper]

10. That is yourconclusion

Given their positions in a mosque. Do you think they are psychotic, I doubt simple con men would engage in brutal mutilation.
I see nothing in this story to suggest anything but the are following the dictates of their religion.
Do you also think when this occurs in the Muslim world, it is also done by shysters, and not because of beliefs?

[cbayer]

11. No, that is not my conclusion. It's just a possibility.

The actual facts around this incident and these particular individuals are scarce.

I have no idea if they are con men or psychotic, though there is evidence that at least one of them has a rather extensive criminal record.

You see nothing because you choose to see nothing. There is much more to this story than is available in this simplistic article.

Sometimes it is clear that something is being done based primarily on religious beliefs. This is not one of those times.

But draw whatever conclusion best suits your agenda.

[edhopper]

12. I guess you can look for a lot of possiblities

To avoid the idea that religious beliefs led to horrid behavior.
Seems l9ke grasping at straws to me.
But whatever gets you by.

[cbayer]

13. Or you can draw your conclusions based on very little information

because you have a need to show that religious beliefs can lead to horrid behavior.

Not very rational or logical, It does very much seem like grasping at straws.

But whatever gets you by!

[edhopper]

14. Explain how

Cutting someone's hands off makes sense for anything but the religious context of the two men?

[cbayer]

15. I don't have any better idea about what went down here than you do.

Theses guys occupy an abandoned and condemned building that they call a mosque. They call themselves imans and emirs. At least one of them has an extensive criminal record including violence. The other has a record of not paying his taxes. They apparently collect money in jars.

Two of them thought the third one was stealing from them and tried to whack off his hand with a machete after dragging him out of the building.

Gee, I don't know. That all sounds really religiously based to me.

Or not.

I have no need to make this not religious, but it appears that others, including yourself, have a need to make it religious.

Whatever it is, it is pretty crazy and not at all typical of what most imans and emirs do in mosques.

Should I post some stories about non-religious people perpetrating heinous crimes and say it is due to their not having any religion?

There are lots of legitimate reasons to criticize some religious practices and extremists. This is not one of them.

[edhopper]

16. I guess this doesn't happen in the Muslim world

Last edited Sun Jul 20, 2014, 05:43 PM - Edit history (1)

With the justification specifically being religious. Where could I get such an idea?

[cbayer]

18. Er, it doesn't regularly happen in the "muslim world" - whatever that means.

My son in law is muslim. I don't think he or anyone he knows has tried to cut anyone's hand off.

Where do you get these ideas?

[edhopper]

20. Google it

Wiki it, or don't look. You can ignore it or not.
You want to think it doesn't happen in many Muslim countries, who am I to challenge your belief.

[cbayer]

21. I googled it and I see nothing to support your contention.

Since you made the assertion that this is a frequent occurrence in the "muslim world", it really is in your court to present evidence that that is true.

I'm not saying it never happens. I am sure that it does.

But I am saying that it is extreme and not "frequent" and that this story doesn't necessarily support that this was some kind of religiously related episode.

I've traveled to a lot of Muslim countries and everyone seems to have their hands pretty much intact.

Has your experience been different?

[edhopper]

22. Here's one

Saudi Arabia is one of approximately thirty countries in the world with judicial corporal punishment. In Saudi Arabia's case this includes amputations of hands and feet for robbery, and flogging for lesser crimes such as "sexual deviance" and drunkenness. In the 2000s, it was reported that women were sentenced to lashes for adultery; the women were actually victims of rape, but because they could not prove who the perpetrators were, they were deemed guilty of committing adultery.[12]

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Saudi_Arabia

[cbayer]

23. Judicial corporal punishment, while hard to stomach, has nothing to do with what happened here.

You are referring to sharia law where someone has been tried and punished by a governmental agency.

I have never said that this does not occur, and I personally find it loathsome.

But you have made the contention that incidents like this happen on a regular basis in the "muslim world".

The need to find religion to be at fault here is clouding your judgement, imo. Step back and realize that you really don't have enough real information to draw any conclusions. And please reconsider the position that this is something that happens on a regular basis in the muslim world.

Please.

[edhopper]

24. I guess it's how often you think is an allowable amount.

http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Amputation_in_Islam

Today in Saudi Arabia, for example, amputation for criminal punishment is not performed by a medical professional but rather by the designated professional executioner who also earns his living beheading people.[2] Muhammad Saad Al-Beshi, Saudi Arabia's leading executioner, describes amputation:
I use a special sharp knife, not a sword. When I cut off a hand I cut it from the joint. If it is a leg the authorities specify where it is to be taken off, so I follow that.[3]

Amputation is used as punishment for theft in Nigeria, which reintroduced shariah law in 1999.[4] This, along with other shari'ah punishments, are "overwhelmingly" supported by the Nigerian Muslim population,[5] and by 2003 three men already had their arms amputated for stealing; a goat, a cow, and two bicycles.[5]

In Somalia, one man found guilty of stealing was put on public display as his hand was severed at the wrist and then dangled by the index finger.[6] In June of the same year (2009), a court run by an Islamic group sentenced four Somali men to each have a hand and a leg cut off for allegedly stealing mobile phones and guns.[7][8]

In 2008, the Islamic Republic of Iran saw five double amputations in a single week--five convicted robbers were each sentenced to have their right hands and left feet amputated.[9]

When the Taliban, an Islamic militant group, took over Afghanistan in 1996, within a year, public executions, amputations and stonings were a regular Friday event in Kabul.[10] In 1998, the AFP reported this event:



Are you really parsing a law that is solely based on the religious beliefs of the government as separate from religion? Are you that desperate to find no fault in religious beliefs?


BTW I remo0ved the word regularly, since it is to vague a word.

[cbayer]

25. I'm not parsing a law at all. I am saying that there is no evidence that this case is anything

other than just a criminal act.

It is others, including you, that want to link it to religion. And the only evidence you have is that these guys called themselves imans and emirs and said they had a mosque.

But put one more notch in your belt if it suits you.

[edhopper]

27. It might not turn out that way

but to say there is NO evidence is just blind.

Emir, iman, mosque, Quran, none of that makes you suspect just a little that religion might have something to do with it? Really?

[cbayer]

37. Again, I have not made the claim that religion has nothing to do with it.

I think that would be as foolhardy as saying religion had everything to do with it.

Until there is more evidence and data, drawing a conclusion is premature. Surely rational freethinkers would agree with that.

Unless, of course, a story meets there agenda. Then data be damned.

[edhopper]

40. You just did in the previous post!

"I'm not parsing a law at all. I am saying that there is no evidence that this case is anything

other than just a criminal act.

It is others, including you, that want to link it to religion."

WTF!

[cbayer]

41. You seem almost driven to prove that somehow I am wrong and it's a bit tiresome

at this point.

There is a difference between saying there is no evidence and that something is not true.

It's kind of like an atheist saying they don't believe because there is no evidence and someone saying definitively that there is no god.

Please go ahead and embrace the position that this is all about religion despite the lack of evidence. I'm going to hold back and see if there is more data before I draw a conclusion.

I can do that because I don't have an agenda that includes it being one way or another.

[edhopper]

42. What bothered me is that

you immediately jumped to the idea that religion had nothing to do with it.

I found that, given the article, unfounded.

And you have an agenda, even if you don't see it.

[cbayer]

44. I don't think I can say this any differently, and you obviously aren't hearing what I am saying.

I am not saying that religion had nothing to do with it. I am saying that there is not enough evidence to draw a conclusion, and the information that is available is fishy, to say the least.

What I object to is all the "rational" people that immediately jumped to the conclusion that religion had everything to do with it despite the lack of good information to support that. This happens here frequently, because there is a sub-group that hates religion and has a clear agenda regarding religion and religious people.

I have an agenda, you are right. It is to increase tolerance and understanding of believers and non-believers of different stripes. It is to confront anti-atheists and anti-theists, who I see as intolerant bigots. It's to identify and promote what we all have in common in order to achieve mutual goals.


If you need to see me as your enemy, you will be warmly welcomed and rewarded.

[AtheistCrusader]

45. Let me know when you see some Starbuck's baristas dragging someone in the back to chop off their

hand for trying to steal the tip jar.

I'll wait.

[cbayer]

46. Will do. People do crazy and violent things for lots of reasons.

I will wait until there is evidence to support what really did or did not happen here. Feel free to assume whatever you want (or just take it on faith that it supports your belief).

[AtheistCrusader]

47. I find your rejection of the obvious connotation amusing.

Clearly, many Islamic nations have done away with this form of punishment for this sort of crime. It is not an indictment of all of them if the texts were badly understood, or what have you. Still speaks to where they got the idea.

If you wanted to object, (Which clearly you do) simply offer the justifications that other Islamic societies have used to do away with said punishment.

[cbayer]

48. And I find your need to demonize religion every chance you get tiresome.

[trotsky]

49. AC offered you a chance to support what you are saying.

And you opted for a personal attack.

Disgraceful.

[AtheistCrusader]

50. Except of course, I explicitly did the opposite there.

[rug]

35. Philadelphia, Pennsylvania is the center of the Muslim world.

Specifically, the Overbrook section of Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.

[okasha]

31. Or all three might be shysters

and the other two suspected the victim of pinching more than his share.

[cbayer]

36. Yes, the three may have come from the same kettle of fish.

It's amazing, though, how people that claim to hold some superior position of rationality and claim to base their opinions on evidence will jump on a story with virtually no factual information just because it meets their agenda.

[LuvLoogie]

2. religious freedom trumps secular law

SCROTUS will have to allow it.

[mercuryblues]

3. that

religious freedom doesn't even have to be based in fact either. Just a felling that it is right.

[elehhhhna]

4. Those two men should be deported.

regardless of their status.

[rug]

5. To where?

He was born Merv Mitchell.

[elehhhhna]

7. oh cripes prison then

figured they were not citizens duh

[Louisiana1976]

28. Yeah--prison would be a good place for them.

[okasha]

32. Look at the pronounced droop

of the left side of this man's face. Possible brain damage.

[muriel_volestrangler]

6. Where do you expect Merv Mitchell was born?

Are you saying there's some country that should have to take American criminals if they're Muslim?

[cbayer]

8. What a bizarre story.

Court records show that Mitchell has an extensive criminal history that includes convictions for robbery, theft, burglary and carrying a firearm without a license.

This is not your run of the mill emir. And it's not your average mosque, as it is in a condemned building

[Iggo]

17. Deeply Held Religious Beliefs.

Gotta love 'em.

[cbayer]

19. Deeply held prejudice and unfounded conclusions based on them.

Gotta love 'em.

[hrmjustin]

26. Sounds like they were in a rage when they did this.

[Tetris_Iguana]

29. Good thing they were hacks at it.

I saw a brutal video of such 'justice' being conducted in Africa, and was horrified that it took them under five seconds to cut off both hands and feet of a thief.

To realize such important appendages are so easily taken away is shocking to say the least.

[edhopper]

30. I guess with practice

they get good at it.
Which is horrible to contemplate.

[rug]

52. Don't look at the video of Daniel Pearl's beheading.

Hacking is putting it mildly.

Horrible.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

33. If there's doctrinal justification to cut off someone's hand

who are we to question? And don't you DARE mock their sincerely held religious belief that thieves should have their hands cut off. Also, you CANNOT blame religion on this mayhem - all religion is perfectly wonderful and without blame for man's failings.

<--- for potential jury members.

[rug]

34. It must be difficult when your opinons are built on straw.

[cbayer]

38. Who is it exactly that you think you are mocking here?

This is not the position taken by anyone here. It is a caricature developed to malign believers and those who support religious believers.

It is no better than if one were to paint such a cartoon character of an atheist.

[skepticscott]

39. He's mocking posters here

who have said in the past that it's wrong to criticize or denigrate the sincerely and deeply held beliefs of the religious.

Sound familiar?

[trotsky]

43. Actually, cbayer, you yourself made the argument that an act of mutilation...

(namely, circumcision), which you would normally oppose, was OK with you if done out of tradition and sincere religious belief.

[samsingh]

51. SCOTUS must be proud - they are only following their religion