Conclusions regarding the Michael Brea case

[struggle4progress]

... "The boy is a quiet man," said Brea's uncle, Martial Brea ...

... Brea, 31, lived with his mother, Yannick, and twin brother, Marcel, in an apartment in Prospect Heights, Brooklyn. The three attended church every Sunday when the boys were growing up, but the sons drifted away as they grew, neighbors said ...

... Until a year ago, he owned a Subway sandwich franchise in Brooklyn, making a name for himself by handing out free turkey heroes on Thanksgiving ...

... He began feeling ill and left, and while riding the train back to Brooklyn, he said, strangers began speaking to him about his mother ...

... Brea .. said he received another sign while at the Prince Hall Masonic Temple in Harlem ... There, he said, a man approached and tried to put a curse on him. "<He> kept trying to put something in my hand but wouldn't show it to me. I kept opening my hand. It was a Freemason pin. I wouldn't touch it" ...

... Investigators said he had stolen the sword from the Masonic lodge ...

... "I felt like Neo from 'The Matrix.' I began hearing voices and feeling powerful," Brea said. "They were asking about the difference between mom and mother. It was a sign" ...

... The neighbor said he first dialed 911 after hearing the mother screaming incoherently as the son shouted "broken Biblical verses" ...

... A local barber who spoke with the suspect's dad said mounting debt may have sent the son over the edge. "His father said he was having money problems and couldn't pay his bills," said Sylvan Benoit. "He thought that's what set <him> off" ...

... "I looked at these chickens lying dead in the pot and a voice told me it was a sacrifice. It was black magic" ...

... Michael Brea was spouting gibberish when he was removed from the Park Place apartment on a stretcher, neighbors said ...

... His family, in their five-paragraph statement, said that was not the Michael they knew. "All who have ever come in contact with Michael know that he is a compassionate, gentle, intelligent, spiritual and loving man," the statement read. "His brother, father and friends stand by him and will aid with his recovery in every possible way" ...

0 votes, 0 passes | Time left: Unlimited
	Really gotta watch out for the quiet ones
	0 (0%)
	Stuff like this happens to people who stop attending church
	0 (0%)
	Bad luck always follows when you own a Subway or listen to strangers on the subway
	0 (0%)
	The secret Masonic Illuminati curse falls upon those who steal from the Masons
	0 (0%)
	It's just another Matrix-inspired murder
	0 (0%)
	Learning Bible verses, can put your family at risk
	0 (0%)
	Capitalism sucks
	0 (0%)
	Chicken soup is some nasty fuggin evil shizz
	0 (0%)
	Crazy people say and do crazy things -- and it's really not funny: it's sad
	0 (0%)
	0 DU members did not wish to select any of the options provided.
Show usernames Disclaimer: This is an Internet poll

[Goblinmonger]

1. Dilute and obfuscate

Noble pursuits.

[el_bryanto]

2. What conclusion do you require believers to draw from this case? And others like it?

[Goblinmonger]

3. I know it has nothing to do with turkey subs.

Or any other the other options in that poll. Which are clearly there to just deflect from the discussion at hand.

[el_bryanto]

4. OK - than clear it up

What exactly is the point that, as a believer, I should be learning from Cleanhippies posts? What exactly does this case require me to do or say to be an honest believer?

Bryant

[Goblinmonger]

5. I think that discussion is happening on that other thread and can be continued there.

I don't feel there is a need for a pointless poll to draw away from that discussion.

[el_bryanto]

6. Fair enough - you aren't participating over there, but I think i have a pretty good idea of

what most Anti-Theists want and why they keep bringing this up.

Bryant

[Goblinmonger]

9. I think there are far fewer anti-theists in this forum

than some people would like you to think.

I'm not one. I don't believe cleanhippie is. I don't remember if skeptic has said he is or not. Some (very few) have said they are. Most of us are just plain old atheists.

The point, as I see it, is that when people continue to post "ain't religion wonderful" posts, it's just as reasonable to post "religion has problems" posts as well. That some immediately think that is "anti-theism" is just ridiculous and overly defensive. To brush the subject matter of his posts off as "just stemming from mental illness" is equally problematic. If some people are going to post articles in which they seem to claim that religion is responsible for getting people to do wonderful things, then you have to accept the fact that religion can make one do horrific things, too. But, instead, we get labeled "new atheists" and dismissed as an angry fringe.

[el_bryanto]

11. So you'd rather that religionists stopped posting positive posts about religion?

Or confine them to the interfaith group?

The point to this story seems to be that religionists are at least tangentially guilty for the beliefs that lead parents to kill their children - would you disagree with that assessment?

Bryant

[Goblinmonger]

13. Don't think I ever said that.

But it's like the TV show from my youth "you take the good, you take the bad." People showing the bad side doesn't make them anti-theists.

Religionists aren't tangentially guilty. Religion is. To the extent that possession by demons is still taught by one of the biggest mainstream religions in the world. That's a difference that hopefully you understand but many at least act like they don't.

[el_bryanto]

15. OK first of all

Christ cast out demons (if you believe the Biblical account and I understand that you don't) so confining to the Roman Catholic Church is silly - all Christian religions at least theoretically believe in Demons.

Secondly - if we were having an argument where both sides assumed the other side was decent and honest that'd be one thing; but clearly many of the people you referenced above don't think that DU believers are honest or decent. Given your reaction to the post i started, I assume you don't think I am either.

Bryant

[Goblinmonger]

16. Couple things

First, Christ was OK with slaves. He talked about how to treat them well. Should I then be OK to think that all Christian religions are OK with slavery? If Jesus was actually a person and the gospels are an accurate account of that life, he lived 2000 years ago when they didn't know what caused mental illness. We know more now. Things can change (re: slavery).

Second, my response to your post had to do with the straw man you created about what atheists on DU want. I don't think I have every seen a DU atheist say that. Perhaps you can provide me a link. Send it to me in a PM if you wish and I will edit that post to indicate that it has been said.

[rug]

18. !

[cleanhippie]

26. Did you really just link to a post in a "safe-haven" group? And you're a HOST here?

[hrmjustin]

27. There is no rule against that.

[Goblinmonger]

28. We can have a more detailed discussion in messages if you wish

but as a Host of A/A, we take this pretty seriously. A/A is a safe haven and we wish we could stop people from seeing what goes in rather than just not being able to post there but that isn't available. People in the past have used stuff that is said in the safe haven to fuel discussion in here. I think that is not cool. As hosts, we have made it very clear that we didn't want that happening with the religious safe havens in A/A. And we don't have people linking to safe haven discussions. People have been banned from A/A for doing what you did and I know that the three hosts still feel those were good decisions.

[hrmjustin]

29. is there a rule that says we can't link to a safe haven?

[cleanhippie]

30. We in A&A have that respect for your safe-havens. It was supposed to be mutual respect.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/123013986

[hrmjustin]

31. Ok fine I deleted it.

[Goblinmonger]

32. There is no DU rule.

But, as I mentioned, we have banned people for that, they have complained up the line, and our decision was left.

I appreciate you self-deleting. I, and the other hosts in A/A, have tried very hard to establish a respect for the religious safe havens and just expect the same from theists in A/A though we don't get that from several people.

[hrmjustin]

33. Fair enough.

[hrmjustin]

34. Wow I was alerted on.

Could have just sent me a pm.

[Goblinmonger]

35. Wasn't me

I think the self-delete was enough.

[hrmjustin]

36. Thank you and it is not a big deal.

Just not used to it.

[struggle4progress]

7. I'm guessing we should learn it was too slow a news day for our dear friend cleanhippie

and so he searched for an old story to resurrect

DU discussed this story back in 2010

At the time, cleanhippie (as sarcasm-loving pro-gun poster) thought one of the most important points, that one could make about case, was the need for better regulation of swords

cleanhippie
Tue Nov-23-10 12:59 PM
36. We need tougher sword laws. Why is it so easy for someone to obtain a sword?

[el_bryanto]

8. Well Cleanhippie clearly has a point he's making with this string of stories

I rather expect we'll get another one next monday (if not before) for as long as he can keep it up.

Bryant

[Goblinmonger]

10. That's a pretty solid nod

to some Swiftian-level satire right there.

But, again, you deflect from the real point of the discussion. You are very skilled at you. You should be proud.

[struggle4progress]

20. I had somehow forgotten you were a gun-enthusiast

[muriel_volestrangler]

19. How about an acknowledgement that religion's horror stories can inspire the mentally ill to kill

and that the purpose of the horror stories is to scare the gullible believers into clinging to the religion? And that it is morally wrong to continue to tell such stories, which serve no useful purpose at all, but sometimes play a part in real-life killing?

Condemn the bullshit about demonic possession as a dangerous scam by religions large and small, and by individual con-artists.

[rug]

21. Because it's bullshit.

Just a hunch.

[struggle4progress]

22. If that's your hypothesis, you should attempt to support it by showing how Brea's acts were inspired

by his particular religious beliefs

The story, as I read it, may not show much coherent thought from him. Since the family is Haitian, some Catholic influences on Brea are, of course, very likely, insofar as a large majority of Haitians are either Catholic or practice a creole religion fusing Catholic and non-Catholic elements

Whatever religion the family practiced in his childhood, Brea himself reportedly lost interest. We are told

... As he was being led away by police, Brea allegedly yelled, "The greatest architect in the universe!" ...

terminology related to his membership in the Masons, which is currently still officially regarded as inconsistent with Catholicism

I further note that neither Catholics nor Masons appear to teach that one should hack people to death slowly so they have time to get right with God, as Brea reports he did. The Catholics certainly do not teach that demons can be expelled from anyone by murder. I much doubt whether the Masons teach that either, having had relatives who were Masons, but I have not found a good reference on Masonic beliefs

Nor was Brea referencing any Catholic belief when he said, ... "I looked at these chickens lying dead in the pot and a voice told me it was a sacrifice. It was black magic" .... Nothing in Catholic doctrine requires anyone to believe that "black magic" exists, though the catechism does warn against superstition; and there is a long history, stretching back to the early Church, of various teachers explaining that those who believe in "magic" are simply deceived

It is, of course, possible that Brea's utterances reflect a diverse combination of Catholic, Masonic, and "folk magic" cultural influences, but since they are jumbled together in a manner suggesting cognitive disintegration, you need to provide significantly more evidence to support your claim that his crime is motivated by his "religion" than merely to make the bald assertion

[muriel_volestrangler]

23. I understand you're touchy about Catholicism and demons, since they do push it a lot

and put out press releases about how they need more exorcists to keep up with the massive demand they've created in their more gullible followers, but I was not saying this is a simply Catholic problem. I wasn't saying it's a purely Christian problem, either. I said it's a problem with religion - any religion that pushes fear of demons, be it Christian, Muslim, 'folk' or anything. el bryanto's question was about cases like this one, not just Brea, and what 'believers' should do, not Catholics, or Christians. We know Brea was driven by religious beliefs - there's God, the bible, souls, demons, saints and black magic all through his interview.

Any religion that tries to sell this stuff to its targets is to blame for this - they've created the con, and found that some people believe in it, but don't do what they told and pay the priest to sort out the incredible danger the priest has told them exists (or 'faith healer', 'witch doctor', or whatever title the conman has given himself). They can't get out of it with lame excuses of "we told them to leave the expulsion of demons to trained professionals".

If there are sections of Brea's belief we can definitely blame on Christianity - biblical verses, for instance - they we blame Christianity. If someone at the Masonic Temple was telling him about the dangers of demons (do they think that in Masonic circles? I haven't heard of it) then they're to blame to. When a mentally-ill man comes to believe he is in a demon-haunted world, it's the fault of those who told him that demons, in the real world, possess people and are evil. That would be various religions, who do it to control the vulnerably gullible.

So what we require is that people renounce the works of these religions.

[struggle4progress]

24. I'm not Catholic and I don't have much interest in demons, including whether or not they "exist,"

though it is my view that it is possible to make meaningful and useful remarks that seem to refer to demons -- such as when we notice one of our own demons, we are misled into thinking we are noticing someone else's demon; ... our own demons may encourage us to notice the demons that others are feeding so that we overlook the demons we ourselves are feeding, which I think actually says something about the psychology of human relations, and which I think just about anyone can interpret sensibly, even without believing in demons and without even forming any opinion about whether demons exist

That disposed of, let me add that I mentioned Catholicism here because press reports identify the family as Haitian, and a large majority of Haitians are either Catholic or practice a creole religion fusing Catholic and non-Catholic elements, so Catholic influences on Brea seem likely. Anyone, who wishes to attribute Brea's behavior to religious influences, ought IMO to make their case based on the actual religious influences he experienced, so Catholicism might be a rational starting point for your inquiry -- or, if one can identify other definite influences, one should start there: so far as I can see, however, none of the claims, going in that direction in this thread, make any real effort to provide such influences

It is in the nature of delusions that persons, others than the deluded, cannot easily make sense of them: in particular, the utterances of the deluded may not provide much explanation of their acts, especially when the utterances themselves make little sense

If neighbors report ... Michael Brea was spouting gibberish when he was removed from the Park Place apartment on a stretcher ..., I suppose you could claim that his crime was caused by reading nonsense poetry, such as Jabberwocky or The Owl and the Pussycat, but the clinical history apparently suggests a rather more organic cause, with progressive signs of developing crisis:

he has a period of increasing financial difficulty; he joins the Masonic lodge but a week later, he suspects the Masons are trying to put a curse on him; he steals a sword from the Masons, and later remembers it as a gift from his father in childhood; on the subway, he interprets the conversation of strangers as discussing his mother; he sees his anomie as comparable to that of Neo in The Matrix; he hears voices which fill him with a sense of power; he wants to be sure his mother knows how much he loves her, even as he plans to kill; seeing a pot of chickens on the stove, a sight he has seen many times before, he now interprets it as some black magic ritual; in a short conversation with his mother, he first hears her voice as that of his mother, then hears her voice as the voice of a demon; when he kills her, he does it slowly, which he attributes to his great love for her, and shouts bible verses; afterwards he babbles incoherently; later he compares himself to St Michael

From this deterioration, culminating in an acute crisis, you wish to extract causes by selectively extracting whatever supports your preconceived notions. The reality IMO will be considerably more neorologically complex: it will involve not only the patient's personal history and development, but also the exact nature of the organic lesion, and probably the patient's social dynamics as well

[struggle4progress]

17. The OP here actually provides significant background material not in the other thread,

which currently contains links to only two distinct news reports

As the OP here includes links to several additional distinct news reports and produces a fuller picture of the actual symptoms and context, it seems to me somewhat denser than the other thread (instead of being, as you claim, "dilute&quot -- and so may provide a better basis for interpretation by our armchair wannabe-psychiatrists

The apparent picture is that of a likeable and generous man, with a some history of recognized success and with a supportive family environment. He reported ideas that the Masons tried to put a curse on him, that he heard disorienting comments from strangers on public transit, and that he considered three chickens (that his mother was cooking in a pot) to be indications of black magic. Part of his interpretation of events seems to have involved ideas from the film The Matrix. He stole a sword from the Masonic lodge he had recently joined and used it to hack his mother, while screaming various Bible verses. Ultimately, he himself was removed from the crime scene, strapped to a stretcher, with observers unable to make much sense of what he was saying

From the links in the OP, one learns that the symptoms include grandiose ideations involving death, inability to interpret mundane events properly in context, anomalous auditory experience, moral disinhibition, and loss of normal personality; at a cognitive level, various distinct ideas appear jumbled together

Perhaps it is unsurprising, then, that the ultimate result was psychiatric commitment several years ago

[Warren Stupidity]

12. Argument by blue links.

An informal fallacy.

[Goblinmonger]

14. Argumentum ad caeruleum

My verb and adjective forms may be off. It's been 30 years since I've taken a Latin class.