Do Guns Belong in Church?

[SecularMotion]

A bill that drew national scrutiny allows handguns in Georgia churches only if church leaders allow it, and lets hunters use silencers.

The bill received final passage by a House vote of 112-58 Thursday night and now goes to Gov. Nathan Deal’s desk. The approval came despite national efforts by opponents to defeat what they dubbed the “guns everywhere” bill, reports the Atlanta Journal-Constitution.

The final version would legalize the use of silencers for hunting and says guns remain banned in houses of worship unless church leaders allow them.

According to language added by the Senate, someone caught with a gun in a church that didn’t allow it would face a misdemeanor charged and a $100 fine.

http://dacula.patch.com/groups/politics-and-elections/p/do-guns-belong-in-church-patch-readers-debate-issue

[orpupilofnature57]

1. Not in less the church is in a war zone .

[pipoman]

2. I don't see a problem with either part of this. ..

[rug]

3. I wonder if guns were allowed at CPAC this month.

[Brettongarcia]

4. There are lots of new laws that arm odd groups. But "When May I Shoot a Student?"

A recent Op-ed piece in the NY Times hints at some commonsense objections to the laws that arm teachers and/or students.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/28/opinion/when-may-i-shoot-a-student.html?_r=0

[Warren Stupidity]

5. "The final version would legalize the use of silencers for hunting "

the level of gun insanity in this country keeps growing in leaps and bounds. The reason for keeping silencers illegal, period, is that they are routinely use to hunt humans and by keeping their possession illegal bad guys can be arrested and taken off the streets before they actually kill their targets.

Many christian organizations in this country are, for all intents and purposes, right wing political organizations masquerading as religious institutions. Consequently they love their guns.

Nothing says "Jesus loves you" like a parish of gun packing ignoramuses.

[Starboard Tack]

9. Silencers are a huge market. Gun nuts love them and unbelievably they are legal.

[AtheistCrusader]

12. We just made them legal in Washington last year.

Already the streets run red with the victims of gun-ninjas...

wait... No. Actually they don't.


The degree to which a suppressor upsets someone is directly proportional to how much they have no idea what a suppressor can or is mean to do.

[Starboard Tack]

15. Righht They protect your hearing when you shoot something or someone.

A definite boon to public health. Very considerate when used in churches and libraries.

[AtheistCrusader]

17. Actually they protect the hearing of people who may not be participating in the activity.

County by county request for data on criminal mis-use of suppressors:

Adams County Never arrested anyone using a suppressor and have no records pertaining to suppressor use.

Asotin County No records of arrests for suppressor use.

Benton County No record of any suppressor related crime.

Chelan County No information on arrest involving suppressors.

Clallam County One suppressor seized during search. Not used in crime.

Clark County No knowledge of any suppressor crime.

Columbia County No crimes associated with suppressors since 1997.

Cowlitz County No violations of RCW 9.41.250(c) since 2004. No other
information on suppressor related crime.

Douglas County No records of any crimes committed with suppressors. No suppressors ever seized.

Ferry County No evidence of any crime with suppressors.

Franklin County No record of any crime with suppressors.

Garfield County Would not respond to inquiry.

Grant County No record of any crime with suppressors.

Grays Harbor County Would not respond to inquiry.

Island County No record of any crime with suppressors.

Jefferson County One arrest involving non-functional suppressor 10-12 years ago. No record of conviction.

King County Six incidents involving arrests and suppressors taken into evidence.

Kitsap County All 9.41.250 a b and c crimes grouped together. A search on "silencer" revealed one case.

Kittitas County No silencer crime on record

Klickitat County Would not respond to inquiry.

Lewis County No record of any arrests involving suppressors.

Lincoln County No known crimes have been committed with suppressors.

Mason County No suppressor related crime on record.

Okanogan County Would not respond to inquiry.

Pacific County No suppressor related crime since 1992.

Pend Oreille County Database does not detail RCW 9.41.250(c) crimes but Inspector with agency since 1987 has no recollection of any suppressor crime in the County.

Pierce County Does not track by RCW 9.41.250.

San Juan County No suppressor related crimes reported.

Skagit County No violations involving the use of firearm suppressors.

Skamania County No record of arrests involving firearm suppressors.

Snohomish County Unable to search database without date/location provided.

Spokane County Unable to produce information relating to suppressors. One ongoing murder trial involving crude homemade suppressor.

Stevens County No violations of RCW 9.41.250(c) in the county.

Thurston County No record of suppressor crime since 2007. Records division has no personal recollection of suppressor crime since 2000.

Wahkiakum County No record of suppressor crime.

Walla Walla County No record of suppressor crime.

Whatcom County Would not respond to inquiry.

Whitman County No record of suppressor crime.

Yakima County No record of suppressor crime since 2000.

[Starboard Tack]

18. Virtually no arrests. I guess that means they work.

It really is incredible how gullible so many are. The whole point of the suppressor is so crimes will go undetected. Do you honestly believe it is to protect those not involved in shooting?

[AtheistCrusader]

20. You have no idea how suppressors work.

Bringing the volume of the report below the threshold that causes hearing damage does not make you an invisible ninja that can kill and vanish at will.

People nearby WILL know a gun has been fired.

And I am very sure that scofflaws that desire to murder people are doing so with a device that requires a 200$ tax stamp, FULL background check, not a NICS instant check, and REGISTRATION.

They are regulated the same as a fully-automatic weapon. Of which, two lawfully possessed FA weapons have been used in crimes since the NFA registry was opened.

You'll be hard pressed to find an instance of a registered, lawfully possessed silencer used in a crime. Home made shit-job oil filter can attempts, perhaps, but not the legal, real, manufactured, registered thing.


Did you imagine the change in the law just lets anyone make a silencer out of a coffee can without breaking a federal law?
You know nothing about this issue.

[Starboard Tack]

22. Thanks for the education.

I thought we were talking about silencers, but apparently there are different kinds. Those that are actual silencers, used by the professional assassins and noie suppressors, that make the bang more palatable and are not actually silent. My mistake.

[AtheistCrusader]

26. There is no such thing as a silencer at all.

Not outside a Hollywood sound stage.

There are extreme/rare instances of assassination with things like a pistol in .22 subsonic, with a suppressor, that get the noise down to a clap of your hands, but for the amount of energy imparted in the target, and the distance at which you could expect to shoot and produce a lethal wound, you'd probably be better off just whacking the target over the head with a hammer.

With ammo that low in energy, and a weapon with that small of a barrel, you practically have to press it up against the target's skull. Which, has happened. I can think of a couple mob hits reputed to have been delivered in that manner (real life). Some claims of some skunkworks-like political assassinations/spies. But it's incredibly rare, not just out of the average murder rate, but incredibly rare out of the 'hit'/assassination scenario.

Police officers know what a suppressor is, and would be instantly suspicious of such a thing, so to carry it, would be instant discovery and arrest if an officer had any reason to so much as terry stop you. If it's legally carried and used in a crime, the person with it is toast. If it's unlawfully carried, well, toast still.

These items have been tightly controlled since 1934, and the associated crime statistics show it. Just like the Fully Automatic Weapons issue, also controlled by the same law since 1934.


If I might suggest a control issue that would gain us something, look at the low crime rate with lawfully owned fully auto weapons. We really should extend the NFA registry to include all semi-auto weapons. If you want guns out of the hands of people who shouldn't have them, that's the golden ticket right there. NFA weapons lawfully owned have been used in 2 crimes in almost 90 years of registration. One by a police officer who had lawful work-related access to it.

If we could replicate that success in semi-autos, that's probably 1/3 of all guns in circulation, and specifically those with the highest cyclic rate. (Fire the most in the shortest period of time)

The silencer issue is a distraction. Honestly, I think the NRA and other groups feed off it, because they can hold up ANY forum post or opinion letter to the editor against it as 'they comin' fer yer guns!' warning, and get people to donate to the 'cause of freedom' or whatever the fuck they are calling it.

From a crime reduction standpoint, it's honestly irrelevant.

[AlbertCat]

23. You have no idea how suppressors work.

Therefore anything you say about the insane gun nut culture of America is moot.

And don't you forget it!

[AtheistCrusader]

25. I'm completely open to factual or even interesting points.

Factual errors about the nature, use, purpose, effectiveness of a suppressor, are not going to go unopposed.

We're talking about a metal tube with baffles, some wadding, and a threaded end, the possession of which can land you in jail for 10 years/$100,000 fine, if you do not pay a 200$ fee, full background check, submit to inspections if the BATFE desires, and register it.

[AtheistCrusader]

11. Bull shit.

Silencers only protect your hearing, they don't hide the report of gunfire. They take the noise down to a level that doesn't skullfuck your eardrums. That's all.

In progressive, European nations with INCREDIBLY tight gun control, they are REQUIRED for use at the gun range.

[Starboard Tack]

19. At the range, where they should kept safely, along with the guns.

Let's see some stats from New Orleans, Miami/Dade, Philadelphia, DC and Baltimore where people were shot and nobody heard anything.

[AtheistCrusader]

21. No, the onus is on you.

Let's see all the lawfully owned, background checked, tax stamped, registered silencers that have been traced to crimes.

I'm sure you've got a heap of them, so, take your time.

[cbayer]

6. Well, I don't think guns belong most places and I don't

want to be in places with guns.

But why would a church be any different than any other place where people gather? I don't think the fact that it's a religious building makes any difference.

[AtheistCrusader]

13. Sayeth whaaaaat?

An issue we agree on out of the starting gate?

Unpossible.

[cbayer]

16. OH dear, AC. I am sure there is much more we agree on than we disagree on.

[Swede Atlanta]

7. I attend a church in Atlanta and this issue came up during a recent congregational meeting.....

Since the law had not been passed this issue was not formally debated or voted on but...... the comments that people were making on this made it clear that our church will be one where guns will NOT be welcome.

Do the gun nuts not recall that even the early settlers made their members leave their muskets in the back of the church or in the vestibule as you entered the church. In those days members carried firearms with them to church because they often encountered wild animals, etc. but the churches did not let them into the sanctuary.

[AtheistCrusader]

14. Then don't allow it.

Say 'no guns'. Cool.

If they ignore it, you've got them on trespassing charges.
If you had any retired or active duty cops in your congregation, they were probably carrying in the church already. Federal law.

[hrmjustin]

8. Not in my church.

[LeftishBrit]

10. Well, some on the Right seem to worship guns as graven images!

http://www.amazon.com/Change-Freedom-Bumper-Sticker-Decal/dp/B00538FS56

http://www.pinterest.com/speedsled/for-my-god-and-my-guns/

ETA: As a non-American, I generally stay completely out of gun threads, as another country's gun laws are not my business - whereas America's economic policy and foreign policy have a broad international impact, and the American Religious Right have intruded very directly into my backyard. However, when right-wingers start talking about God and guns in the same breath, I feel I can comment!

[AlbertCat]

24. Sure! It's fine....

..... as long as they just shoot each other.

[cbayer]

27. Lol! AlbertCat thinks it fine for people in church to shoot each other simply

because they are in church!

Pricesless.

[AlbertCat]

28. LOL! cbayer thinks AlbertCat isn't being sarcastic.

Well, that's what you get with "other ways of knowing".....

Pitiful.

[hrmjustin]

29. that was not funny.

[cbayer]

30. Well, maybe if you had used the sarcasm smiley.

I don't have any other ways of knowing.

Pitiful, indeed.

[AlbertCat]

31. Well, maybe if you had used the sarcasm smiley.

"Guns in church" pretty much makes any comments on the subject either a joke or sarcasm.


Region is ridiculous.

[stone space]

32. No. (nt)

[Act_of_Reparation]

33. It depends on the church

Churches are private property. If they decide to welcome possession of firearms upon their premises, that's their problem to deal with.