Pope: Internet Is a 'Gift From God' for Dialogue

[cbayer]

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/wireStory/pope-internet-gift-god-dialogue-21633850

VATICAN CITY January 23, 2014 (AP)
By NICOLE WINFIELD Associated Press

The Internet is a "gift from God" that facilitates communication, Pope Francis said in a statement released Thursday, but he warns that the obsessive desire to stay connected can actually isolate people from their friends and family.

Francis made the observations in a message about Catholic Church communications, meditating on the marvels and perils of the digital era and what that means for the faithful going out into the world and interacting with people of different faiths and backgrounds.

In comments that will likely rile the more conservative wing of the church, Francis suggested that in engaging in that dialogue, Catholics shouldn't be arrogant in insisting that they alone possess the truth.

"To (have a) dialogue means to believe that the 'other' has something worthwhile to say, and to entertain his or her point of view and perspective," Francis wrote. "Engaging in dialogue does not mean renouncing our own ideas and traditions, but the pretense that they alone are valid and absolute."

more at link

[Squinch]

1. You think he's a DUer?

[cbayer]

2. Lol. He might check it out from time to time.

"Now, this here is the Religion Group. You want to stay out of there."

[Squinch]

3. Clearly he's in the Lounge there!

[cbayer]

4. He'd probably fit right in there.

[pokerfan]

6. Looks like DU to me

[Squinch]

7. .

[cbayer]

13. Very well done!

I really need to learn how to do some of that.

Ah, the places I could go.

[Renew Deal]

98. lol

[Renew Deal]

97. hrmjustin?

The man is a saint.

[Squinch]

99. I think this is true.

[skepticscott]

5. "the pretense that they alone are valid and absolute"

Good grief is that rich! Coming from the leader of the self proclaimed One True Church, the declarer of absolutes on a daily basis.

At least Ratzi was a sincere scumbag. This pope says one thing solely for effect, while believing the absolute opposite. Sickening.

[Warren Stupidity]

8. So Al Gore is God. I knew that.

[okasha]

9. Only in the Religion Group

would you find an alleged progressive castigating anyone for urging that a religious group renounce "the pretence that they alone are valid and absolute."

[trotsky]

10. okasha, there is no reason to personally smear someone over this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_true_church

Please elevate your behavior.

[skepticscott]

11. Don't confuse

the religionists here with facts. Especially facts they already know but try to pretend they don't. Don't muddle them by proving that church doctrine on the ordination of women, abortion, contraception and same-sex marriage is absolute and unchangeable, despite the pope's phony attempts to pretend he's moving away from all that.

[rug]

14. Is that a fact?

[hrmjustin]

15. Her behavior was fine thank you.

[trotsky]

16. Oh, you believe skepticscott to be an "alleged" progressive?

That's OK with you to make those kind of smears?

[hrmjustin]

17. I don't know who she is talking about.

I was talking about in general.

[trotsky]

18. Sorry your alert didn't work out.

But as long as you approve of okasha's behavior it must be OK. I mean, you've already told us that you know how the bible should be interpreted so I should probably trust your judgment.

[hrmjustin]

19. I give you my word I did not alert on you.

[trotsky]

20. I realize you didn't alert on MY post.

But I would ask that if you really care about trying to raise the level of discussion in this group, to try and get rid of the personal acrimony, that you take a good, long look at skepticscott's initial post (#5) in this thread - which made NO MENTION of any fellow DUer. Then compare to okasha's post, which was a personal comment directed at another DUer, and it was pretty damn clear from the context who she was referring to.

Now after that if you can still honestly tell me that you saw nothing wrong with her behavior, then I have nothing more to say to you, because I'll know how you feel about trying to improve things in this group.

[hrmjustin]

21. I would not have used alleged progressive.

[trotsky]

22. Do you still think her behavior was "fine"? n/t

[hrmjustin]

24. I am trotsky but I am not condeming her.

You get what you give here.

[trotsky]

25. And back a few steps we go.

scott's post was about the pope, and no one else. Go back and read it again

So what about his post made him deserve to be personally slammed by okasha?

I realize you're trying to have this both ways, but that isn't going to help anyone, or help this group to become less dysfunctional. If scott deserves to be treated like that, then we should be entitled to make the same kind of attacks on okasha. Would that be OK with you?

[hrmjustin]

26. let's stop pretending that we are going to make this group any better.

Besides she has been attacked her before.

[trotsky]

27. Ah, I see.

It's OK because you think scott deserves it. Eye for an eye and all that, just like Jesus taught!

[skepticscott]

29. "And they'll kno-ow

we are Christians by our love!"

[hrmjustin]

31. Not every believes like I do.

[trotsky]

37. Clearly.

And here I thought "eye for an eye" was an OT concept that was rejected by good Christians. Thanks for correcting that misconception on my part.

[hrmjustin]

39. Spare me! This did not happen in a vacuum.

You want to mKe this room better then lead by example.

[trotsky]

41. What personal attacks have I made?

I responded to a person who made an inappropriate smear on someone else. I'm TRYING to make this a better place.

But you not only side with the person making the smear, you go on to say it's deserved, and that apparently I deserve it too.

So hrmjustin, what kind of example are you providing?

[hrmjustin]

42. I am not saying u personally attack people.

But since you asked the other day you accused me of saying something I clearly did not.

[trotsky]

44. Happens to me all the time.

But I don't go excusing personal attacks because of it.

Lead by example? You start. I'm done with this fucking thread.

[hrmjustin]

45. Fine with me.

Consider being a host.

[Goblinmonger]

47. I totally support trotsky as a host

Make it happen. You have the superpowers.

[hrmjustin]

49. There is a nomination thread. Nominate him.

[trotsky]

53. Not interested.

Not when an existing host is OK with personal attacks just because they think someone deserves it. I wouldn't fit in.

[hrmjustin]

32. if your serious about making this room a better place then volunteer to be a host.

[trotsky]

34. Why, do you think the current hosts aren't doing an adequate job? n/t

[hrmjustin]

36. One of the hosts on the non beliver is stepping down.

There will be a thread later on it here.

[skepticscott]

28. And why wouldn't you have said that?

Is it because you agree that "alleged progressive" is a smear and a personal attack? If so, why do you consider her behavior here "fine"?

And please, don't weary our ears with hand-waving about "well, there's nothing wrong with it, it's just not what I would have said"

[hrmjustin]

30. You get what you give here scott. Yeah I should have not but in but you get what you give here.

I am sorry Scott but it is true.

[skepticscott]

35. And what did I "give"

in my post #5? A personal attack on another DUer?

Even if I had, is it your policy as a room host to give personal attacks a pass as long as you think that they are deserved? If so, if that's the kind of room you want to be host of, then please say so straight out, so that we all know the gloves are off.

[hrmjustin]

38. It is not my job to give a pass or not. Juries deal with this.

You gloves have been off a long time so don't complain to me.

Think about your own behavior here first before you complain to others.

Why don't you ask her why she said that to you and she might answer.

[skepticscott]

50. Baloney

You can take action that you see fit within the room, regardless of what juries decide, and make an attempt set whatever tone you like here.

And I haven't "complained" to anyone. I've simply pointed out what seems to be a rather hypocritical double standard expressed by a room host, and tried to get you to elaborate on it.

As far as okasha, I don't need to ask why she said that. I know perfectly well. And I have no need to alert on her. I prefer to leave her smear up there for everyone to see.

[hrmjustin]

52. Why don't you nominate yourself for hozt or nominate someone.

[skepticscott]

33. Oh, I think we can guess who

the alert troll was. 1-5 doesn't say much for the merits of alerting on a post that was an appropriate response to a content-free smear.

[arcane1]

55. I thought the "alleged progressive" remark was about the pope.

[Goblinmonger]

56. Nope.

Nope nope nope nope.

It was a personal attack on skeptic.

[skepticscott]

12. The pope is being dishonest and hypocritical

in his statement. Are you capable of discussing that in terms of facts, or does flinging poo ("alleged progressive&quot constitute the extent of your intellectual prowess here?

[cleanhippie]

23. She wouldn't have anything else to say if she did.

[Laelth]

40. Um ...

As much as I admire the new Pontiff, I would correct him here. The internet was not a gift from God. It was a gift from We, the People, of the United States. We created it, and we gave it to the world for free. I am quite proud of this fact, and I am reticent to give God the credit for it.

-Laelth

[cbayer]

43. I don't think he meant that literally.

What I see is that he said increasing communication and giving a voice to the previously voiceless is a "gift from god".

But the media, of course, likes this spin better.

[Laelth]

46. If you are right about his intended meaning, then I agree. n/t

-Laelth

[cbayer]

48. I can't be sure, but that's my read.

[bowens43]

51. sorry god had nothing to do with it...if anything god was a hinderence to its develpment

god is blatantly anti-science

[cbayer]

54. How is god blatantly anti-science?

[amuse bouche]

57. a 'Gift From God' ?

Really Frank? Then why do I pay a ridiculous amount for that so called gift every month?

So where shall I send the bill....Franky?

[phil89]

58. Well, no,

the internet didn't come from any god or gods...

[cbayer]

59. Er, he didn't mean it literally.

[phil89]

60. I'm not so sure

My guess would be he certainly thinks a god had a hand in it.

[cbayer]

62. If you read what he says, he is talking about how the internet making

communication easier and providing access to those who previously had no voice is the "gift".

But the press preferred this headline spin, of course.

[trotsky]

63. Just because you have your own interpretation doesn't make everyone else wrong, cbayer. n/t

[phil89]

65. He's the pope

I think when he invokes god he means it. Not sure where a god figures into any of it, gift or otherwise.

[cbayer]

66. For many religious believers, life is a gift from god

and they believe that god provides.

So what?

If you want to believe that he is saying that god actually invented the internet, so be it.

Whatever purpose that serves for you, I hope it's effective.

[phil89]

68. Life

either is or isn't a gift from god, what people believe has nothing to do with that reality. I agree many people do not care whether what they believe is true or not.

[cbayer]

69. Do you know whether it is or isn't?

When the answer is unknown, as it is in this case, using words like "reality" and "true" don't make a lot of sense.

Unless, of course, you know something that no one else knows.

[phil89]

71. I said

it either is or isn't from god, and that someone's belief won't change it. Not sure where there is middle ground unless I'm missing something. There's no evidence that a god did it, so I stick with the neutral position.

[cbayer]

72. Who claimed that someone's belief would change it?

Disbelief won't change it either.

You can stick with whatever position you choose, but you can't claim that others are wrong or don't possess the truth.

Because you don't know.

[phil89]

73. Yeah

I was referring to when you said: "For many religious believers, life is a gift from god
and they believe that god provides." It sounded like you were saying that life IS a gift from god for people who believe. Maybe you didn't mean that? My statement was that their beliefs have no bearing on whether life comes from a god.

Additionally, it's true I don't know there's no god in the same way I don't know there are no leprechauns.

[cbayer]

74. Sorry i was not clear.

I'm not claiming any such thing. They believe it and as long as that doesn't hurt anyone else, I chose not to judge them on that.

Or mock them by comparing their belief in god to a belief in leprechauns.

[phil89]

75. No problem

I judge on the basis that I think it's harmful for people to be irrational or not care whether or not what they believe is true. I don't see how a comparison of evidence for god vs leprechauns is mocking anyone. If belief in a leprechaun is absurd, so must be a belief in god, based on the lack of evidence for either.

[cbayer]

77. See, here's my problem. You are still doing it.

You are calling believers irrational and not in possession of the truth, then doubling down by saying their beliefs are absurd..

I think it's equally irrational to claim that what you believe is any more true than what they believe.

You have come to your position based on your own experiences. Others may have had very different experiences and come to a totally different place.

Yours is no more rational or true than theirs.

Lack of evidence does not make something untrue, it just makes it unproven.

And it is mocking to compare it to leprechauns.

[Lordquinton]

81. How is it mocking it to compare it to another belief?

Is believing in Leprechauns absurd?

[hrmjustin]

82. Does anyone believe in them anymore?

[Lordquinton]

83. People do

But I fail to see the relevance of the question.

[hrmjustin]

84. Curiosity.

[cbayer]

87. Are there books written about Leprachauns that can be found in most homes in the world?

Are there universities and graduate programs devoted to the study of leprechauns? Are there groups and individuals who have made lucrative careers out of trying to disprove leprechauns?

Are there any groups on DU devoted to leprechauns?

Comparing the two is just an attempt to belittle and dismiss believers.

[trotsky]

88. Why does the number of people who believe something determine how much respect it gets?

Either beliefs are worthy of respect or not, it shouldn't matter how many people hold them. Can you explain why that matters?

[Lordquinton]

89. Ok, so you'v enow established that some beliefs are lesser than others

What is the criteria for beliefs that aren't absurd? What is the criteria for beliefs that are? Do we need a DU group for something to be non-absurd? (Leprechauns would fit into the Ancient Wisdom and Pagan Spirituality group, btw)

[cbayer]

90. I don't set those criteria, do you?

Let's just start here though. This site provides community standards on what kinds of groups are protected from bigotry and religion is among them.

Despite this, many members still think it's ok to attack, ridicule and deride those with religious beliefs.

So there is a line drawn there.

Now, if you want to go into the AWPS group and make fun of people who believe in leprechauns, go right ahead. And if you want to do the same towards religious people in the religion group, I guess you take your chances.

[trotsky]

91. And juries enforce the standards. You don't.

So use the alert function instead of trying to shame and silence other DUers when YOU think, using your own personal set of standards, that they "attack, ridicule and deride those with religious beliefs".

If the jury agrees, great. If not, tough.

[Goblinmonger]

92. That's a false comparison and you know that as a former Mod

AWPS is, I believe, a safe haven. This group is not (your desire for it to be treated as one notwithstanding).

[Lordquinton]

100. This whole sub thread is revealing more about yourslef

than anyone else. I not making fun of anyone and you'r getting really bent out of shape. You said there wasn't a DU group for Leprechauns, and I pointed out there actually was. You made a statement that some beliefs are more valid than others, even giving some criteria, I was just seeking clarification.

You're the on who made the call about not all beliefs not being equal. Maybe I'm going out on a limb here, but I think pretty much all atheists think all beliefs are equal.

[cbayer]

101. And that would be a problem why?

I don't mind revealing things about myself.

I find the comparison insulting and I maintain that it is meant to be insulting. So what?

You are going way out on a limb in speaking for anyone but yourself but particularly far out there when you speak for "pretty much all atheists".

I would maintain that if you represent any at all, it's a small subgroup that is primarily anti-theists.

That's why you see all beliefs as equal and can so easily dismiss and ridicule them.

OTOH, there are lots of atheists who post here and who's articles are posted here that feel quite differently. They are able to make some differentiation and see value in respecting the beliefs of others, even if they don't share them.

I think this is particularly true of many of the younger atheists, and I am very glad about that.

Did you happen to read this one? I'm pretty sure you don't speak for her.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1218110253

[Lordquinton]

102. So you don't hold all beliefs on the same level?

That's a rather bigoted opinion you have there, who are you to judge what beliefs are sacred, and which aren't?

What's insulting about the comparison? What makes one more valid than the other?

[cbayer]

103. Can you honestly tell me that when you compare the major religions to a belief in leprechauns

that you are not doing so in order to dismiss, denigrate or mock believers?

Honestly?

I think you might say you are not, but I'm not going to buy it.

As I said early, when there are books written about leprechauns that can be found in most homes in the world, universities devoted to the study of leprechauns, institutions established in almost all corners of the earth and major news stories on a daily basis about leprechauns, I might think that the comparison was not meant to be a smear.

Whether I hold individual beliefs on the same level or to be valid or not is not the issue. It's your value judgements that are being considered.

And I would ask that you refrain from calling me a bigot when there is nothing I have posted that would indicate bigotry.

[Lordquinton]

104. Maybe you should look to yourself first

and not accuse people of of something if you don't want to be called out on your own flaws. You're being hypocritical, there is a bigger base for the Abrahamic god, but it has exactly the same weight as any other belief. You even said before that all beliefs were equally valid, that theistic and atheistic beliefs were equal.

And btw, Leprechauns have a strong cultural significance stretching back thousands of years, so remember that when you're insulted by a belief in them, you're insulting an old culture.

[skepticscott]

105. As has been pointed out to you before

but which you apparently chose to close your mind to, the fact that a lot of people share a mistaken belief or delusion does not make it less mistaken or deluded, only more socially acceptable. Lots of people (the majority of American Christians, in fact) believe in creationism too, there are insitutes devoted to its study and lots of books written about it, and yet you dismiss that belief as ridiculous. Is that a smear by you of other people's deeply held beliefs?

[skepticscott]

85. It's also mocking

to call creationists "a bunch of dumbasses" (as you have), even though your beliefs are no more rational than theirs. Lack of evidence that the earth is less than 10,000 years old does not make it untrue, just "unproven" (by your unassailable logic, anyway).

Still waiting for you to tell us how comparing belief in god to belief in leprechauns or Santa Claus is "mocking". That's just made up nonsense on your part, and you don't have anything rational to back it up with.

[phil89]

93. faith

is irrational by definition. If there were evidence, why would one need faith? Rejecting the claim of a god is not a claim itself. I'm not claiming anything here. Why is it mockery to compare it to leprechauns? You think people living inside fish, being resurrected, etc. sounds normal and rational? I think that the idea vicarious salvation through human sacrifice is absurd.

[cbayer]

94. Faith is not irrational by definition, though it may sometimes be irrational.

Particularly when one has evidence to the contrary.

But when there is not evidence either to prove or disprove, everyone is in the same boat.

And you are no more sane or rational than a religious believer just because you reject a belief in god.

You are certainly entitled to reject the belief in god, just as others are entitled to accept it.

I think religious stories can be taken many ways - lessons, allegory, metaphor or literal. I think there are lots of ways to read and embrace those stories that is perfectly normal and rational.

What is absurd to you is not absurd to others, and until someone appoints you the standard bearer, what do you have to gain by using words like irrational, abnormal, or absurd and comparing people's beliefs in a god to a belief in leprechauns just because they see the world differently than you do?

[phil89]

95. Not true

I'm not sure how believing in something that contradicts the laws of nature and reality as we know it could be rational. I'm certainly more rational to require evidence before believing something, as opposed to simply believing extraordinary claims based on nothing, or based on ancient books. It's important to apply critical thought in my opinion.

And still I wonder why you think the comparison to leprechauns is insulting? I'm not following you on that.

Regarding what I have to gain...I suppose what I have to gain is to hopefully live in a more rational, sensible world, by pointing out irrationality and absurdity, superstition, etc. when I see it.

I do agree that stories can serve many purposes, religious or otherwise. The problem arises when people think they are literally true. Harry Potter has some lessons in it, I don't suppose people would think me reasonable if I insisted it were real.

[cbayer]

96. Are you claiming to be in possession of all the laws of nature?

Or only the very small amount we as a species know right now?

If we just talk about everything that is known right now, do you think you are even in possession of anything more than a drop of that?

I understand that you reject the concept because it isn't verified by anything you know and you are welcome to shut that door.

But thank goodness than scientists and other thinkers don't shut doors because they do not have evidence of something.

That's irrational. What is rational is to keep looking until there is evidence either for or against something. Hey! That's science!

I already explained to you why the comparison is insulting. It's meant to ridicule and dismiss. This explanation apparently doesn't fit your narrative and you have rejected it.

You will never get where you are trying to go by "pointing out" to those that see things differently that they are irrational and absurd.

I agree with you about literalism and I don't think you are going to find many literalist in this community.

But you are going to find good, thinking, intelligent, rational, sensible progressives and liberals who have religious beliefs.

You can continue to offend them or try to see that you really have much more in common with them than you have differences.

[skepticscott]

80. So you'll be telling us, then

how their belief in the existence of god is fundamentally different from someone believing in leprechaun, fairies, ghosts, ancestral spirits or any other such thing. Right? The existence of leprechauns can't be proven or disproven, so who are you to judge? Right?

Yeah, right.

[hrmjustin]

79. I believe life is a gift from God.

[hrmjustin]

67. He is also giving thanks for the internet.

He is thankful it was created.

[Goblinmonger]

61. And we know this how?

I mean, when he does make a proclamation and tells us it is from god, do we not believe him then?

When he says mass and reads the gospel and says "this is the word of Lord" do we not believe him them?

I realize thinking he believes that the internet was actively given to us by god makes him seem like the kind of guy you don't want him to be, but he does say pretty much that exact thing and does mean it literally.

[okasha]

70. Vell, vell, Herr Goblinmonger.

Tell Uncle Sigmund haw long you have believed you have this ability to read minds, eh?

[trotsky]

86. Think about that one a little bit more, okasha.

It's cbayer who is saying she knows what the pope really meant. GM is asking why we shouldn't take his words at face value.

[pinto]

64. I've said "Oh, thank God" at times. Or the Irish colloquialism "Oh, Jesus, Mary and Joseph!"

One a statement of relief in some situation, one a statement of exasperation with some situation. Neither are a statement of my belief. Just common phrases.

I'm not the pope, obviously, so I can't speak to his intent. I liked this finish from the same article -

He called for communications in the digital era to be like "a balm which relieves pain and a fine wine which gladdens hearts" and for the church's message to not be one of bombarding others with Christian dogma.

"May the light we bring to others not be the result of cosmetics or special effects, but rather of our being loving and merciful neighbors to those wounded and left on the side of the road," he said.

[DesertFlower]

76. i do the same thing. i'm an atheist but

was raised catholic. my massage therapist (and best friend) is jewish and the massages hurt. he does therapeutic massage. a few times jokingly i yelled "Jesus, Mary & Joseph" and another time "holy Mary mother of god". we had a good laugh about it thanksgiving day which i spent with his and his wife's family. his wife is christian -- so are his brother's wives. We all had a good laugh especially his 2 brothers.

the funny thing is the first time i saw him he gave me a lot of paperwork to fill out. when i looked at it i said "oy vey". he laughed and said he hadn't heard anyone say that since his mother passed.

i also say "god bless you" when someone sneezes and i tend to say Jesus H. Christ.

that being said i like this pope and feel everyone has the right to their religious views.

[pinto]

78. LOL. Yeah, we are more alike than we are different.