When I believed, this is what I believed...

[uriel1972]

I was trying to make sense of the things in my head, as a treatment resistant schizo, there was a lot in my head. Anyway I believed that Gods were self aware memes that were created/sustained by groups of people.

I also believed that these memes could communicate with people who were their 'hosts' and that I was one such host. It was an empathic connection rather than a voice connection.

When we finally found a drug that worked on my psychoses, this feeling went away and I became a hardcore agnostic atheist. I'm not saying that religion is a result of psychosis, but that mine was.

I regard my 'religion' in the same way I regard the extra limbs, wings and claws I would continually sprout when untreated. The result of an illness.

As a former believer I don't begrudge people believing, if they don't hurt others. I would require a lot of hard evidence to believe once more as I have experienced how fallible human senses are.

Again I don't believe that religious people are all psychotic, although given the numbers game some are. I am just outlining in part my atheism and my past as a believer.

[gcomeau]

1. Not meant to trivialize your experience...

"Anyway I believed that Gods were self aware memes that were created/sustained by groups of people.

I also believed that these memes could communicate with people who were their 'hosts' and that I was one such host. It was an empathic connection rather than a voice connection. "

...but the first thing I thought when reading that is that it sounds like an awesome plot for a fantasy novel!

[uriel1972]

2. I'd read it if you write it :)... nt

[gcomeau]

4. Ooh, or a Doctor Who episode!

[cbayer]

3. I think your experience is not atypical of psychosis.

You have first hand knowledge and I defer to that.

My experience has been that in trying to make sense of what is happening to them, many people with psychosis will develop religious delusions. This seems to occur whether they were or were not religious prior to the episode.

It is not surprising that someone's religiosity might disappear with the psychosis. And what you say makes a lot of sense.

Once you understand that what you were experience were symptoms and had nothing to do with a god or gods, you could easily abandon them. Do I have that right?

If you were to have another episode, do you think you would again develop some sort of religiosity?

Thanks for sharing this. It's a great insight. And I am really glad that you found what works for you. Meds are so much better these days.

[uriel1972]

5. I don't know about a recurrence...

I would hope I have enough insight to get help again and not fall prey to psychosis.

Having worked through my beliefs so thoroughly I doubt I would become religious once more, but I think it would be very hard not to.

eh It hasn't happened yet and I hope it doesn't, but you never know.

[cbayer]

7. I also hope that you never have a recurrence.

It's certainly possible and I hope you have found someone (or a team) that works for you. I am truly happy for you. It's a terrible illness, but we've come so far in the last 20 years. It's pretty astounding. Not perfect, but so much better.

I would guess that you would never become religious again without a recurrence. With a recurrence, it would be interesting to see what did happen, but not an experiment one would want to do.

Best wishes for your continued health. You are a hero, imo.

[Warren Stupidity]

6. I think most religion is a learned delusion bordering on psychosis.

We basically repeat delusional thought patterns to our children, reward them for acting as if they are sensible, and over time convince them that they are "real".

When we witness upstart religions doing the same thing we label them "cults" and question the sanity of both the teachers and the members of the cult.

[cleanhippie]

8. Bingo!

[cbayer]

9. You know, this is a really important thread

in which someone has shared some deeply personal and sensitive information.

I'm not sure it's really the right place to start calling religious people psychiatrically ill.

And your knowledge of psychiatry and psychiatric illnesses seems, well, limited at best.

[skepticscott]

11. In other words

Benghazi, Benghazi, Benghazi!!

[Warren Stupidity]

26. "Science promotes genocide, because Hitler".

Your sense of what is or isn't proper is not persuasive.

[trotsky]

34. ONCE AGAIN, cbayer...

"delusional" is NOT the same as "psychiatrically ill"

Perfectly normal, sane people can be delusional, because a delusion is simply a false belief. That's it.

YOU are the one who continually tries to paint others as attacking all religious believers as being mentally ill, and then you proceed to berate them for doing so. You are poisoning the well, hindering discussion, and feeding prejudice toward non-believers.

PLEASE stop it.

[rug]

22. I think personality disorders are common.

[Warren Stupidity]

30. I love lamp.

[rug]

31. So is object paraphilia.

[hrmjustin]

10. You believed that Gods talked to you?

[uriel1972]

12. At least one yes... nt

[hrmjustin]

13. What religion were you?

[uriel1972]

15. heh my own..

I had no religious upbringing, apart from one very unsuccessful day in Sunday school. I was a henetheist, I believed there were many Gods, but only one was worth the time and effort. A Goddess actually, but that is neither here nor there.

[hrmjustin]

16. And she talked to you how?

[uriel1972]

17. Like I said it was more of an empathic connection...

I could feel what she felt, whether I was doing the right or wrong thing and so on. I am curious about your curiosity, I wonder where it leads.

[hrmjustin]

18. just curiosity.

Faith is not easy nor is it always easy to maintain.

[spin]

14. If there is a God (and I believe there is) he is far beyond our comprehension. ...

I don't believe by any means that the Bible is the literal word of God as if it is, he needed a good proof reader to eliminate all the discrepancies.

My cat just walked into the room and is sitting beside me while I type this. I turned on a small space heater and directed the flow of air toward him to warm him up as it is slightly chilly outside. No matter how hard I try, I can't teach him why the space heater works. Sometimes we as humans over estimate our level of intelligence.

I can accept the fact that we may be simply the result of evolution on this planet. Still there is the possibility that our universe was created by a great watch maker or an extremely intelligent and all knowing mathematician who may have directed evolution.

If you look into quantum mechanics you may end up questioning reality. Eventually as we learn more about the universe and how it works I feel more scientists will except the possibility that a creator of all things doe exist.

I enjoy studying religion and I see the "golden rule" in most religions. Of course, admittedly, this makes only good sense in establishing a successful and productive civilization.

My father who could be described at best as an agnostic talked to me about religion as he approached the end of his life. He told me, "You can chose to believe in a religion or not, but if there is some basis to religion you be a lot further ahead than if you refuse to do so. If you follow the basic requirements of most religions, you will end up being an honest and responsible citizen who will help those in need. When you reach my age, you may have far fewer regrets and die more peacefully."

In passing, I should point out that I have met many atheists who led a good productive life and helped the poor. Often the problem with Christianity is Christians.

[A HERETIC I AM]

19. Here, let me help;

If you look into quantum mechanics you may end up questioning reality. Eventually as we learn more about the universe and how it works I feel more scientists will except (sic) the possibility that a creator of all things doe (sic) NOT exist.

There. Fixed it for ya.

[spin]

21. Thanks. Obviously I need a good proof reader to correct my misspelling. ...

However your addition of "not" to my post does not change my views on the possibility that a creator does exist.

That's not a major problem as you have the right to believe or not. Still as long as we are both honest and responsible citizens who do our best to help those in need and to treat others as we would have them treat us, I see no real problem.

Note that I am not a strong supporter of the concept that if you do not "believe" you will burn in Hell for eternity.

At the worst it is my view that when this life ends there is nothing after,. If so, that's fine with me.

[A HERETIC I AM]

23. I was just havin' a go at ya.

But I do take exception to the statement I "fixed".

The fact is, religion and belief in a god or gods reside behind a curtain, so to speak.

Science has been slowly, over time, making that curtain smaller and smaller and more irrelevant. This process will continue.

So I disagree that "more scientists will accept the possibility that a creator of all things does exist."

If anything, the idea will continue to seem more and more unlikely.

[spin]

24. Time will tell. (n/t)

[A HERETIC I AM]

25. It already has. n/t

[rug]

20. I take it you're stating you were psychotic.

What does your psychiatrist say about your confusion of psychosis with religion?

[uriel1972]

27. Yes I was psychotic and delusional...

We talked a lot at the time and I can't remember it all. She basically lets me vent and asks questions in order to make me think about things I think.

I can't remember her specifically addressing the religion/psychosis thing apart from stressing caution about certainty whilst being psychotic. If it's one thing psychotics are it's certain about things.

She let me have my head and work it out for myself essentially, patching me up and sending me back out into the world and looking for the next medication in the pipeline. In the end it seems to have worked out, so far.

[rug]

28. I'm glad you're better.

[uriel1972]

32. Thank you... so am I.. nt

[LostOne4Ever]

29. One of the things that gets me about religion

Is that how in a world where we can't be 100% certain of anything ,can we ever hope to learn the answer.

How can I know for sure that everything that happened to me right here and right now is not a giant delusion and that im not in reality stuck inside a giant padded insane asylum cell, or am just a Matrix like brain attached to a computer, or having a dream

To refer to a Taoist fable:


[div class="excerpt" style="margin-left:1em; border:1px solid #bfbfbf; border-radius:0.4615em; box-shadow:3px 3px 3px #999999;"]
Once Zhuangzi dreamt he was a butterfly, a butterfly flitting and fluttering around, happy with himself and doing as he pleased. He didn't know he was Zhuangzi. Suddenly he woke up and there he was, solidly and unmistakably Zhuangzi. But he didn't know if he was Zhuangzi who had dreamt he was a butterfly, or a butterfly dreaming he was Zhuangzi.

Yet, if we are to believe some religions what is the punishment for being wrong? Endless and unimaginable torture. There are THOUSANDS of religion and if we happen to pick the wrong one we will suffer beyond anything words could hope to describe. No matter what we pick the odds are we are wrong and the only evidence we have to go on is our experience which in and of themselves could be nothing more than delusions.

Its like a game in which we are set up so that no matter what we do we are bound to fail. Maybe those tells of hell are wrong? Maybe we are supposed to pick religion A, or maybe religion B, or maybe the whole game was set up so that we would realize the system was rigged and the correct choice is to reject everything? Who knows?

The only solution to this that ever made sense to me was say,

"If there is a God, Goddess, or Gods who judge us and if he/she/they are truly benevolent then they would judge me on my character and never damn me for making a simple mistake. Otherwise, he/she/they are (an) evil petty god(s) undeserving of my adulation and who would damn me whether I was right or not. Deities I would work to oppose."

From this I simply make the best determinations from my experiences.

[uriel1972]

33. This is what makes Pascal's Wager such a sucker bet...

Which deity and flavour of belief will you choose to avoid Hell? It's not so simple as atheism versus belief.