Mexican abuse victims ask that Vatican be tried for crimes of state

[Warren Stupidity]

The Vatican has an unprecedented appointment on Thursday in Geneva: The United Nations Committee on the Rights of the Child will study, among other matters, the response of the Catholic Church to the incidences of abuse carried out by its members worldwide over the course of decades. It will be an historic moment; no organization has yet dared to take on the Holy See.

Victims and associations in the USA, Mexico and Europe have taken the opportunity to submit to the committee in Geneva reports with their collated complaints and documented cases of pedophilia. Mexico, from where 169 individuals and organizations will present more than 200 separate cases, has asked that the scandal be treated as a crime of state and the Vatican tried by the United Nations. Such a move would have to be taken in a separate process as the committee has limited itself to making an evaluation.

“Father, good luck with the UN,” someone this Saturday said to former priest Alberto Athié in the Coyoacán neighborhood in the south of Mexico City. Athié arrived in Geneva on Monday to meet with some of the committee’s members. This priest hung up his robes when his reports of pedophilia against Marcial Maciel, the founder of the Legionaries of Christ, fell on deaf ears in Mexico and Rome. He believes the UN now has “an historic opportunity” to see justice served. “The Church is responsible because there were indications that the highest authority sought to protect the abusers and cover up pedophilia, which led to more and prolonged cases,” says Athié.

http://elpais.com/elpais/2014/01/13/inenglish/1389611093_599772.html

[cbayer]

1. It will be interesting to see how the UN committee handles this.

I'm not at all familiar with their processes or what they can or can't do as a result of their hearings.

Anyone else?

[Warren Stupidity]

2. If they want to act as a state and hide their pedophiles using diplomatic immunity

then they need to also comply with the other responsibilities of nation states.

I doubt it will go very far. Too bad. There will be no justice.

[cbayer]

3. Where are you getting the information that they are not cooperating or participating in the

UN hearings?

[Warren Stupidity]

7. where did I say they weren't?

You seem to be reading something into what I said that is not actually there.

On the other hand I doubt very much that the Vatican will cooperate with rather than obstruct against any effort to bring charges against their 'state' in any international venue.

The history of Vatican obstruction against investigations into their pedophile problem is a matter of record. Certainly you can agree to that.

[cbayer]

9. The article is about a UN committee that is meeting this month.

One of the things on their agenda is looking at the Vatican's handling of the pedophilia issue. I've seen nothing to indicate that they are using diplomatic immunity or avoiding responsibility in regards to this specific committee. I would suspect that the committee would look at those issues as a part of their investigation.

You are then drawing conclusions about what will happen with this committee (won't go very far, there will be no justice).

[Warren Stupidity]

12. Again, where did I say they were using diplomatic immunity with respect to this committee?

I do indeed not expect this to go very far. That is not "drawing conclusions" that is "speculation".

You seem to be confusing two issues.
1. this effort to bring international charges against the vatican.
2. the Josef Wesolowski affair, which I posted about earlier, where the Vatican whisked this creep out of the Dominican Republic just before an investigation into his pedophile problem might have been able to hold him there, to the Vatican, where they have now informed Poland, of which country he is a citizen, that his Diplomatic status will preclude any extradition effort by either Poland or the Dominican Republic.

My speculation is based on the long, well documented, and continuing efforts by the Vatican to obstruct these investigations at every level.

[cbayer]

14. Gee, I don't know.

You were responding to my post about this committee, so I assumed your remarks were about this committee.



I don't think it is I that is confusing two issues.

[Warren Stupidity]

15. You turn every dialog into a fight.

Here is what I said:

If they want to act as a state and hide their pedophiles using diplomatic immunity

then they need to also comply with the other responsibilities of nation states.

Obviously this caused you some serious confusion. Sorry about that. I'll try one more time using multiple sentences.

The vatican is currently shielding a pedophile archbishop using diplomatic immunity.

There is an effort to bring international criminal charges against the Vatican, as a state, for its obstruction of pedophile investigations.

The Vatican cannot both use its status as a state to obstruct criminal investigations and avoid being held accountable, as a state, for violations of international law.

Is that clear enough? Are you still confused?

[cbayer]

17. Here we go.

Yes, you are again totally right.

I never have a conversation without it being a fight and am seriously confused. I appreciate your breaking things down to multiple sentences so that my feeble mind might understand it.

Again, I bow to your superior intellect. It's all become crystal clear to me now.

[rug]

4. Here's their website.

http://www.ohchr.org/EN/HRBodies/CRC/Pages/CRCIndex.aspx

Here's the pertinent treaty.

http://www.ohchr.org/EN/ProfessionalInterest/Pages/CRC.aspx

[cbayer]

5. Thanks for that.

I can't find anything specific to this issue on their agenda, but the site has scads of information, some of which is difficult to pin down.

[rug]

6. Yeah, I really don't want to spend the time to ferret out the information

just to rebut opportunistic flamebait.

[Warren Stupidity]

8. right, so sorry that this information disturbs you. I'll keep that in mind.

Wouldn't want to post anything here in the religion forum that the religious might find upsetting. That would set a bad precedent. In addition, why would an atheist post anything related to theism? It just seems wrong. Wouldn't you agree?

[rug]

10. Why on earth would you think I find this disturbing or upsetting?

The only annoying thing about it is your lethargy to provide any information or discussion beyond flamebait. It's like discussing flashcards.

"Pedophilia!"

"Boo!"

"Misogyny!"

"Hiss!"

And why are you deigning to speak for atheists? It's your flamebait.

[Warren Stupidity]

13. yes it is just so boring to keep bringing up pedophilia, homophobia, and misogyny.

Sorry. I'll try to ignore the news on these issues with respect to the RCC from now on.

[rug]

16. I guess the Crusades and the Inquisition have lost their traction.

I can't wait to see what the next one will be.

[Warren Stupidity]

18. It is likely to be homophobia, misogyny or pedophilia, until the church actually reforms

and stops practicing all three of those things.

[rug]

19. I really don't think it matters to you.

As long as there's something to use.

[Warren Stupidity]

20. Obviously it doesn't matter to you.

[rug]

21. Oh, but it does, as does honesty.

What I don't like is using it casually to promote pre-existing anti-Catholic bigotry.

[Warren Stupidity]

22. So I should shut up about the pedophilia, homophobia and misogyny

because, according to you, I am just biased against the church of my father, his father, his father's father and on through many generations of good Irish Catholics.

OK, your command is noted. It is another Irish part of my heritage that just doesn't give a flying fuck about requests to not speak ill of the church.

Not speaking up is exactly why generations of Irish women were hustled off into slavery, why generations of children all over the globe were routinely subjected to sexual abuse, and why the church continues to push its homophobia and misogyny, and continues to obstruct over its pedophilia problem.

[rug]

23. No, but you shouldn't be so clumsy about it.

Seriously, wouldn't you hold the same views about the RCC if there were no child abuse scandal?

[cbayer]

11. There is nothing upsetting about this at all, imo.

It's a good thing. I am sincerely interested in how the UN committee will proceed.