Pope Francis trashes the ‘prosperity gospel’: Pompous Christians are ugly pagans

[DonViejo]

By Eric W. Dolan
Wednesday, December 18, 2013 11:25 EST

At his weekly General Audience on Wednesday, Pope Francis urged Christians to imitate Jesus Christ by being humble and “small among the small.”

“It is an ugly thing,” he said, according to Vatican Radio, “when you see a Christian who doesn’t want to humble himself, who doesn’t want to serve, a Christian who struts about everywhere: it’s ugly, eh? That is not a Christian: that’s a pagan!”

He warned Christians against placing themselves above others and called on the faithful to be in solidarity with the poor.

“Jesus Himself reminds us: He who has fed, welcomed, visited, loved one of the smallest and poorest of people, has done it for the Son of God,” the pope said.

Watch video, uploaded to YouTube by Rome Reports, below.

###

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/12/18/pope-francis-trashes-the-prosperity-gospel-pompous-christians-are-ugly-pagans/

Full article posted with permission of Raw Story

[PM Martin]

1. The prosperity gospel is John Calvin's false cult.

[Leontius]

19. Can you explain how it's related to Calvin and his doctrine.

[okasha]

68. If you're saved, supposedly,

worldly prosperity will follow.

[hollysmom]

2. as it should be.

I have more respect forthe Christians who practice this way than the let them starve, it will make them work harder.

[MellowDem]

3. Nice trashing of Pagans there Frankie...

It might be hard for a moral dunce like Francis to understand or see beyond his bigotry, but there are pagans and others out there who not only already hold the same positions he does on poverty, but they do it based on empathy for fellow humans rather than a belief in an authoritarian supernatural being.

Oh, and they aren't homophobic or sexist like Frankie is either.

Francis might also want to look up the no true Scotsman fallacy. Can't just pretend that all bad. Christians are really pagans or otherwise.

[Angry Dragon]

29. +3327

[okasha]

69. The problem with your post

is that you regard all believers--including pagans-- as deluded and mired in cognitive dissonance. You have no room to complain on this point, given that you and "Frankie" agree here.

[MellowDem]

78. Nope

Many pagans have no belief in the supernatural. And some definitions of pagans include atheists. Indeed, much like "barbarians", "pagan" is a word that was used as an epithet by the Catholic Church for centuries in its wars to kill and slaughter others that didn't adhere to the One True church. It just throws all "nonbelievers" into one giant, convenient, and easy to demonize pile. Frankie using it is just continuing the usual. Kinda like his opinion that Hillary could never be a priest because she's a woman, or his belief that the drive for gay marriage is being orchestrated by the devil. I mean really, what a dick, but look at the organization he leads. He and Duck Dynasty have a lot in common.

Are all people who believe in the supernatural (whatever variety) deluded and often mired in cognitive dissonance? Yes. By their own admission and by the very definition of words they are.

Delusion: an idiosyncratic belief or impression that is firmly maintained despite being contradicted by what is generally accepted as reality or rational argument.

I can't think of any reality or rational argument for believing in the supernatural. In fact, the very definition of supernatural makes it impossible, because it is beyond our reality of understanding. None of our rationals apply.

Religion is just a sort of normalized delusion, though it is becoming less so bit by bit. It takes a while for the privileged to see past their own entitlement. Religion has been shielded from criticism that any other idea rightly receives for thousands of years, and even now it gets the benefit of the doubt from the leftover of religious privilege.

[freshwest]

4. 'a Christian who doesn’t want to humble himself...'

I saw a lot of Republican Xtians on CSPAN during the Bush era.

Two I never forgot:

One was some of them with a cellphone, pretending that God was on the other end of the line. They said, 'Oh, sir, yes sir, we'll do it! And don't worry, sir, we'lll stop that! And we'll fight those Democrats, oh yes, we will!'

All of them laughing racously at the joke, reminded me of damn gang of klansters talking about lynching someone. And their base may or may not have seen that and approved.

Another one was the infamous James Dobson. He was being very contentious about those who criticized him (none of those were in the audience) but there were a bunch of fawning women waited with bated breath on every piece of dung that fell from his mouth.

He told about spending time in a cabin in Colorado in the mountains. He arose to stand on the porch, and saw a bear in the yard. So he got a gun and shot it.

Then said something to the effect that anyone who didn't like it could fuck off. I don't recall the exact words, but that was close, and it was the sentiment and tenor.

We wonder why women that vote with this group and are Tea Partiers and 'patriots' can be so vicious. This is what they are taking as the word of God, with no compassion or respect involved.

The Pope has seen them, too, and it's about time they got called out on it by the people who think they can count on an ultimate authority figure to be in their corner. Good bye to all these frauds who hate the poor and hurt others.

A person who believes in the only real ideal that set the USA apart from the time it was founded, that all are created equal, and looked to see that ideal taken further with the Constitutional amendments, would never even indulge in the kind of thinking, much less utter the words we have heard from the rightists repeatedly.

[Squinch]

5. Do y'all think he will change anyone's behavior? I'm asking seriously.

I am interested to see if we see any political changes over the next couple of years that increase socially responsible behavior.

[trotsky]

24. Let me answer that question with another one:

The Catholic church teaches that using birth control is a sin. How much has that altered people's behavior? The same liberals who cheer the pope's statements critical of capitalism and greed quite proudly disregard him on other stated positions.

[Squinch]

25. Yes, but at least on some topics, he is asking his followers to respect their better natures.

And please don't misunderstand: I disagree with him in many areas. But he is appealing to empathy for the poor, as no pope in my memory has. I wonder what effect that will have.

[trotsky]

31. No pope in your memory?

So you don't remember the last one?

Benedict XVI’s Plea: Put the Poor at the Heart of Catholic Life
http://usccb.wordpress.com/2008/03/25/benedict-xvi%E2%80%99s-plea-put-the-poor-at-the-heart-of-catholic-life/

Pope Benedict XVI clearly puts care for the poor at the heart of the Catholic Church. In his first encyclical, Deus Caritas Est (God is Love), he said three things make the Church the Church: Proclaiming the Gospel, celebrating the Sacraments and caring for the poor. This love of the poor is an essential and defining activity of the Church. Benedict declares, “Love for widows and orphans, prisoners, and the sick and needy of every kind is as essential to her [the Church] as the ministry of the sacraments and preaching of the Gospel. The church cannot neglect the service of charity anymore than she can neglect the sacraments and the word” (#22).

This emphatic call is an extension of the great commandment to love our neighbor. In fact, Pope Benedict insists: “Love of God and love of neighbor have become one: In the least of the brethren we find Jesus himself, and in Jesus we find God.” And, our neighbor is anyone who needs our help and whom we can help (#15). In this encyclical, the pope states that today loving our neighbor has global dimensions since we see and respond to people’s struggles and needs almost instantaneously .(#30).

Pope urges international leaders to tackle poverty with courage
http://www.americancatholic.org/News/BenedictXVI/poverty.asp

Pope Benedict XVI urged international leaders to tackle global poverty "with courage" when they meet at the United Nations to verify implementation of the Millennium Development Goals.

...

The pope spoke four days before world leaders joined the U.N. General Assembly to check progress on the anti-poverty program adopted eight years ago.

"On the occasion of this important meeting...I want to renew my invitation to adopt and implement with courage the measures needed to eradicate extreme poverty, hunger, ignorance and the scourge of pandemics, which strike above all the most vulnerable," he said.

[Squinch]

35. I don't read American Catholic, or the reports of the Catholic Conference of Bishops. Neither do

most people. Many Popes in my memory have paid lip service. This guy is saying it in ways he knows will challenge those who can actually do something about it.

I am not challenging your church. But you have to admit, this guy is getting the word out in a way no one else has.

[trotsky]

44. LOL

It's not my church. I don't have one. Just pointing out that there is nothing new in the new pope's message, this one is just much better at PR.

[Squinch]

61. Whatever, dear. How many of the others made the general public discuss these issues?

None.

[trotsky]

62. Your use of condescending language is noted,

as is your moving of the goalposts and admitting your initial claim was wrong. Thanks!

[Squinch]

63. And your refusal to engage in anything resembling an actual discussion.

[trotsky]

64. You made a claim.

I showed it to be false.

You admitted your initial claim was false by changing it to a new one. Good discussion, I'd say! False information was corrected!

[Squinch]

65. Truly ridiculous.

[Act_of_Reparation]

71. Obviously you don't remember John Paul II n/t

[Squinch]

72. I certainly don't remember him taking on Wall Street.

[Act_of_Reparation]

74. Oh, I see

Taking on Apartheid, the Soviet Union, capital punishment, two wars in Iraq, the Rawandan Genocide, and organized crime is small peanuts.

Never you mind he once wrote of wealth, "On the contrary, it has always understood this right within the broader context of the right common to all to use the goods of the whole of creation: The right to private property is subordinated to the right to common use, to the fact that goods are meant for everyone".

But he didn't take on Wall Street!

Looks like all those Catholics call him "The Great" for nothing...

[Squinch]

75. Well, so I suppose that answers my original question:

you are telling me he was effectively speaking out against all those things, and yet the wars in Iraq weren't stopped, capital punishment wasn't ended, it was the efforts of others that were primarily responsible for ending apartheid, and the Soviet Union certainly never listened to him.

So I guess the answer to my question is that this pope probably won't change people's behavior either.

[Goblinmonger]

66. "in ways he knows will challenge those who can actually do something about it"

He's the Pope. If anyone can do something about it, it would be him.

[goldent]

85. Yes, he will change some people's behavior

He has probably changed mine to some degree, and others without doubt. But it might not be a large group, and I don't see this having too much of a political effect.

But there is no doubt that it is good for the world, that someone like him is an outspoken advocate for the dignity of man. He and Vatican see the reaction to his words and action, and I'm sure will try to manage it for maximum effect.

[Squinch]

87. I posed the question thinking that would be the case, but seemed to get a lot

of anger from the posters here for even asking.

I agree with you. I am a "fallen Catholic," and have very mixed feelings about the church, but he is saying things that I actually believe and that the church previously seemed to ignore or act in opposition to. I won't return to the church because of its position on women and gays (though my gay cousin is a very devout Catholic. I can never figure that one out!), but I think I could work with them on these issues.

[trotsky]

88. No, the "anger" you encountered was people correcting your false statement.

Previous popes have said the same things the current one is saying, they just didn't have as effective PR.

[Squinch]

89. Case in point.

[trotsky]

90. You have yourself a wonderful Christmas, too!

What great holiday spirit.

[rug]

91. +10

[okasha]

93. The difference between Francis

and Benedict is not in their doctrine concerning the poor but in their actions. Unlike Benedict, Francis lives humbly. No palace apartments, no monster limousine, no red slippers, no fur hats. It's the same way he lived as Bishop and Cardinal. It's teaching by example. To quote his namesake, "Preach the Gospel every day Use words when necessary."

As for the handful of folks here who just can't face the day till they've chugged a quart of vinegar, ignore them. If Francis created a lesbian cardinal tomorrow, with her wife concelebrating the Mass, their responses would be no different.

[skepticscott]

94. You know that's false, but I guess it makes you happy.

The fact is that you're the one spitting vinegar at those who do no more than advocate equal treatment for gays and lesbians and decry those who speak and fight actively against it. And on a progressive web site, too...some nerve we have.

Be a defender and apologist for anti-gay bigots if you must, but don't try to project onto those of us on the other side. And do let us know when Francis takes "actions" anything like those you describe. We'll be waiting.

[Squinch]

96. That was what I noticed. He appears to be

"walking the walk." Without that, the words don't do much. He also seems to have the capability of saying, "you and I will never agree on X. I still respect you, and can work with you on Y and Z."

I had an aunt who was a very devout Catholic, and very well educated, and a kick-ass organizer. She worked within a Catholic organization to set up practical programs for the benefit of the indigent and the working poor. She was very good at it, and created a lot of them, but I think she always felt she had to work around the bishops. She never came out and said it, but I think she thought they tended to be clueless about what she was doing.

She died just before Francis came in. I think she would have liked him.

[cbayer]

95. Small but loud group. Thanks for posting this and I hope you will continue

to participate.

[Squinch]

97. I'm not bothered.

If I identify with any religious group, it would probably be called pagan by Christian people. And as you can see by my post, I come from a family that was originally very Catholic, but where everyone has gone in different directions. I am used to a certain amount of emotionalism around these issues, and a certain amount of, "how can I still love you so much when you follow/don't follow a religion that says THAT??"

I have only cut ties with one, and only because she kept calling up the ones she didn't agree with in the middle of the night to rant about how they were going straight to hell.

Short of that, I'm good.

[cbayer]

98. You, like most people that post here, have a complex and very personal

space that you occupy which you arrived at on your own unique path.

That's one of the things I love about religion.

As stated in another article posted here today, it is the rigidity within religion held by some believers and some non-believers that is the real danger.

My own family is really complicated. My father is a minister and a rather radical political activist. I have a sister who is pretty mainstream christian, an atheist son who about to marry into a very catholic family and will probably convert and a daughter who has married into a devoutly muslim family. My husband was previously married into a highly fundamentalist family and we are very friendly with them.

We have what I would call robust discussions about religion, but everyone has a degree of tolerance and respect that is admirable. No one has cut anyone out, though there were some tough moments when our son-in-law told his family he was marrying a non-muslim.

[Squinch]

99. It's the way of the world these days.

I think wars of religion and race and class will end when we all are members of families which include all the warring sides.

Either that, or dinner tables are about to get really violent!

[cbayer]

100. I think it's one of the things that makes life so interesting.

I would hate to live in a society or culture that was homogeneous.

Here's hoping you have a wonderful holiday season full of love and free of food fights.

[Squinch]

101. You too! Have a great holiday.

[okasha]

102. My favorites among the small and loud

Last edited Tue Dec 24, 2013, 08:12 PM - Edit history (1)

are the heterosexual males who claim to be doing more for LGBT folk than we're doing for ourselves-- by posting anti-Catholic tirades in a remote corner of the Internet.

This Pope has come further in a few months than Obama did in three years. I contine to be hopeful that he will move further toward gender and orientation equality.

[cbayer]

103. Some points of privilege are so high that others can't even be seen.

I am also optimistic and hope to see some concrete progress when the Bishops meet next year.

As I have learned as a sailor, big ships take miles to make small turns. It can be done, but it's not going to be easy.

I hope you have a warm and loving holiday season, okasha. I just got some killer tamales from a street vendor that just scream christmas to me!

[okasha]

105. The original "barque of Peter"

is now aircraft-carrier size. But as we saw with John 23, a determined skipper can still steer her hard a-port.

And a marvelous season to you and yours! We've been eating tamales since Hannukah (kosher!) and will go on at least through el dia de los reyes magos (Three Kings Day).

[skepticscott]

106. Perhaps you'd care to point out even one

heterosexual male here who "claims to be doing more for LGBT folk than we're doing for ourselves".

We all know you can't, and your attempt at a smear rings pretty hollow, as you rip on people who are on your side on the issue while at the same time you're defending one of the most virulently homophobic institutions on the planet, and their leader. Who, by the way, has come nowhere that has made a difference that matters in the fight for LGBT rights and equality.

But hey, you just go right on slamming us, if it makes you feel good, and keep on waiting for the Wonder Pope to do anything of consequence.

[trotsky]

107. It's strange, isn't it...

that we have the facts, the quotes, the history of the Catholic Church on our side, yet we are the enemies because we aren't embracing the pope enough.

The passive-aggressive smearing doesn't bother me. I know I am standing with LGBT allies who haven't fallen for the pope's PR campaign.

[skepticscott]

108. And there are, I'm happy to say, plenty of those people

As the recent thread on the Advocate site showed me. But disappointingly few of them here, by comparison. Amazing to me that so many people on DU have been bamboozled by the same sort of PR campaign that they saw right through with GWB and the Repugs. Even if you don't believe that religion poisons everything, it can't be denied that it mucks with people's critical thinking something awful.

[uriel1972]

6. A vile slander on pagans... nt

[Marrah_G]

7. The pagans I know, and I know many, rarely strut around

They are rarely wealthy and they are generally humble. There are exceptions...we call them "assholes"

I would appreciate it if he didn't slander those in faiths like mine by labeling his own assholes with our name.

[Act_of_Reparation]

8. Nothing says "humble" like the Vatican

You tell 'em Frankie.

Nothing so needs reforming as other people's habits. -Mark Twain

[el_bryanto]

9. So what should the Pope do to be more Humble in regards to this place?

Should that cathedral space be torn down?

Or open to the public (as it seems to be) so they can appreciate the art and architecture?

If you were to advise the pope what would you tell him to do?

Bryant

[Act_of_Reparation]

12. A little honesty would be a good start

He could admit to his own organization's culpability in promoting Christianity as an ostentatious enterprise, rather than backhanding the Pagans, who, also thanks to his illustrious predecessors, aren't around to defend themselves.

There's a saying about people in glass houses... perhaps you've heard of it?

[el_bryanto]

14. I do agree the Pagan line was ill chosen

He should have gone with Babylon. As for the rest of your complaint, he's certainly talked about the Catholic Church getting back to serving the people - which implies he would like to see a change from the past.

Bryant

[Act_of_Reparation]

18. Like I said... honesty.

Does Pope Francis really believe previous incarnations of the church were but humble servitors to the general public? I have to assume he's an educated man, and unless he was absent the day they taught western history in western history class, he can't possibly be suggesting what you say he is suggesting... unless he's lying.

If he wants to help people, fine. I'm down with that. But he has no call blaming the Pagans--or any other religious or ethnic minority unfairly maligned by the church for time immemorial--for behavior the Catholic Church has epitomized for over a thousand years. It's not just factually wrong, it's shamelessly hypocritical.

If he really wanted to wag his finger at someone, his own Cardinal Timothy Dolan is one of the largest landowners in New York City. Certainly he's more relevant to modern Catholics than are ancient followers of ancient religious, both of which his esteemed church eradicated a millennium ago.

[notadmblnd]

28. Pardon me, but I think that's exactly what he is doing.

Recently I read something to the effect that there was some Cardinal in Germany whose opulent abode was turned into a charity outlet of some kind at the Pope's behest.

[Act_of_Reparation]

38. And I think not.

Bishop Franz Peter Tebartz-van Elst was not suspended because of his opulent lifestyle. If that were the case, the issue very well could have been resolved when the Vatican first investigated him this September. He was not suspended until he was shown, in court, to have repeatedly lied about allocations of church funds, and was brought up on perjury. Van Elst had been doing shit like this for years and had long incurred the ire of Limburg's parishioners; it wasn't until he became a media sensation--and, for that matter, a criminal--and a threat to the church's public image that the Vatican actually took action to correct it.

But this is only half of the problem. As I stated, the other issue I take with Francis' hollow speech is its inane finger-pointing at a people his own predecessors eradicated and repeatedly slandered for centuries. Hucksterism is not a Pagan problem, and hasn't been since the Pagans were so callously swept from the table fifteen hundred years ago. It is, however, a problem that's been endemic to Catholicism for the whole of its existence, and his refusal to accept any blame on behalf the institution is as deluded as is repugnant.

[okasha]

70. There are plenty of us pagans

around to defend ourselves.

[Act_of_Reparation]

73. Will you be hosting gladitorial games this Quinquatria?

If not, I think it is safe to assume you aren't the kind of pagan to whom Francis was referring.

[okasha]

76. So you're defending the Pope on this one?

It's a miracle!

[Act_of_Reparation]

77. Hardly

Merely pointing out that the classical religions slandered by Francis have no historical connection--and for that matter, exceedingly few theological connections--to modern practices, ergo my point that none are around to defend themselves stands.

[trotsky]

10. LOL

[trotsky]

11. What's wrong with pagans?

Gee, what a nice guy this new pope is.

[cilla4progress]

26. Yah...

that was unnecessary. He needs to do some research...

[Goblinmonger]

13. Interesting that the usual Pope cheerleaders

are conspicuously absent from this thread.

If Dawkins or Hitch or any other evil new atheist had made this statement about pagens, they would be in here in droves telling us how horrible that was. But apparently the Pope can bash pagens all he wants.

Not surprised, btw.

[rug]

22. Take comfort that the usual Pope haters are present and accounted for.

Most of them.

[Goblinmonger]

23. I generally don't like homophobes and misogynists

YMMV, I suppose.

And way to not address the issue by deflection. I expect nothing less.

[rug]

32. Is that your justification for, and admission of, Pope hating?

[Goblinmonger]

43. I don't like the Pope.

He is not significantly different from the last Pope that plenty of people at DU outwardly hated. They both talk about taking care of the poor. They both are homophobes and misogynists.

Is this your admission of liking this Pope even though he would be banned from DU for expressing the opinions he has?

[rug]

55. I'll take that as a yes.

And no, I don't think the DU ToS has anything to do with the Pope. Let me know when he joins. I wonder what his username will be.

[Goblinmonger]

57. Did I stutter?

I have a hard time thinking even you are going to try get a post juried by this. My thoughts on the Pope are pretty clear.

Do you support him? Do you appreciate this bigoted comment? Do you support his homophobia and misogyny?

The ToS has to do with his views. If he were a user, he would be banned for what he says about gays and women. And that's the guy you're supporting. I would hope that point is clear to everyone even if you are faining being obtuse.

[rug]

58. No, you made it quite clear.

You went as far as you could without providing an explicit answer.

And, frankly, your concern about a website's ToS while discussing the Pope is just, well, stupid.

Good luck with your alert.

[skepticscott]

36. Yes, no need to wonder where the room's most outspoken and self-righteous pagan

would be if an atheist had made such a bigoted and ignorant statement. We're only left to wonder why they're OK with the pope doing it.

[el_bryanto]

15. As a Pope Defender I want to say that while I generally agree with the Popes statements here

I think that the line about Pagans was ill chosen, and detracts from what is otherwise a good message. He might have used Babylon instead - as Babylon has been an example of the selfish world for a long time.

Bryant

[cbayer]

16. Agree that his use of the word pagan is misplaced.

I wonder if it might be a translation issue.

Pagano in Spanish can mean pagan, as we define it in English. It can also mean heathen or infidel.

Anyway, his point got lost because the word was used carelessly and without regard to those he might offend, apparently.

[Goblinmonger]

17. Oh, "heathen." Yeah, that's a lot better.

So he meant they are acting like an atheist. Cool.

I hope, in the future, you give the same level of latitude to the "new" atheists.

[trotsky]

20. Ha! Don't hold your breath.

The new pope says he won't judge gays as long as they don't BE gay. I.e., they'd better not live their lives with a partner of their choice nor dare to try and - *GASP* - marry them.

That gets translated and spun as "Oh this wonderful man, he's so kind and tolerant!" Pretty sweet for the popester!

Meanwhile, the corpse of Christopher Hitchens gets drug out to slap a manufactured quote on it and kick around, and since it's deemed "not much" of an exaggeration of what he actually said while alive, it's OK to bash him and all vocal atheists and by the way they should all go the way of the dinosaurs too.

Now that's some fine tolerance right there!

[DinahMoeHum]

30. I dunno, methinks "heretics" or "blasphemers"

would be a better choice.

[uriel1972]

33. As a heretic and a blasphemer I resent that:)...nt

[cbayer]

34. The point he was trying to make was that they are something other than Christian.

His choice of words (if the translation) is inaccurate was in poor form and I'm afraid his otherwise good message will be lost because of it.

[skepticscott]

37. Poor form?? Why are you afraid to call it what it really is?

Bigotry. And certainly nothing remotely like humility.

[trotsky]

47. Pathetic, cbayer.

It's bigotry against non-Christians, plain and simple. Your refusal to recognize it as such - to hope instead for some kind of translation error, where regardless of how one wants to translate, it still means a NON-CHRISTIAN - is extremely hypocritical, especially given your proven history of leaping to attack any "anti-theist" who has even a completely fabricated quote or position attributed to them. Oh, it's "not much" of an exaggeration, so you attack anyway. Even going so far as to wish anti-theists would go extinct.

No wonder you struggle to be taken seriously.

[Warren Stupidity]

81. Hmmm... I'd say Pontifex Maximus has it ass backwards.

They are the true Christians, he's the one out of step.

[cbayer]

82. Sorry, Warren. You have completely missed the point here.

I think he probably has more to say about what is christian and what is not than you.

And while I can't completely support his steps, I think they are more in line with what I see as christianity than those he is criticizing.

[Warren Stupidity]

83. He certainly has more words to say.

But wallowing in opulence is standard Christian practice and has been for at least 1700 years. Let me know when he sells off the Catholic Church's vast real estate holdings and countless treasures to feed the poor.

[Small Accumulates]

21. Pagan bashing, how refreshingly old-fashioned

Meet the new boss, same as the old boss. And you know how this goes: Won't get fooled again.

[JI7]

27. why Bash PAgans ? isn't this kind of like the white trash comment of duck dynasty

about how he could hang around with blacks because he was white trash. so he is implying being black is trash ?

[rustbeltvoice]

39. No, some here are confused by context.

'Pagan' is here really not used in reference to a group or individuals of current pagans of some sort of religious practice. 'Pagan' here is more like a comparison to what Christianity had replaced. Some of this is lost to history, but within the Roman Empire the forms of paganism were not benign as some projecting fantasy suggests. One novelty that marked the early Christians from their pagan neighbours was the charity/agape/love they showed each other. This was not the way of the world. This is the comparison Francis is making. It is the dance around the golden calf.

Now, i see if this is read by some of the thread commentators, they will object greatly. No defense, no rationale will be considered. Which is odd, for the gist of Francis' argument is against the non-humble, the extravagant, the self absorbed, self-satisfied, self-aggrandising whom call themselves 'Christian'. I will have to see how much good will there is out here.

[rug]

40. Pagan, as in Roman?

Interesting context.

Too bad it won't stop them from derailing the thread from the main point. Any thing handy will do.

[goldent]

41. I had the same reaction

In Catholic school, the term pagan was a generic term and not for people practicing a specific type of religion.

[trotsky]

49. Correct, a generic term for...

anyone who isn't a Christian.

It's still bigotry.

[Bradical79]

60. It is an anceint pejoritive

Yes, it is a bigoted term but an ancient one that applied to a various groups of non-Christian religious beliefs at various times. I don't know much about modern paganism, how large a group that refers to, or how they relate to the ancient religions the church referred to as Paganism. Most of the time it was basically a blanket term most of the time referring to any religious belief that didn't line up with church doctrine as far as I can tell. The interesting thing is that the term may have originated as a non-religious term whose earliest usage referred to Christians themselves (some sort of military term).

[goldent]

86. Well, I may be old, but not ancient

In my day and place, it wasn't perceived as a pejorative term, more factual. Much like Jew and Gentile. I remember I was surprised when I found out there are people who call themselves Pagans. This is just my experience, but I reckon I'm not the only one.

It is interesting how the meaning and tone of words varies in time and space. I find it fascinating that the term "middle class" in often used in a pejorative way in England. Opposite situation with the term "Oriental."

[Bradical79]

92. Anceint as in over 1000 years

I'm including the Latin version from the early church in that dating though. Interesting that you mention Middle Class, in that the Wikipedia explanation of Pagan goes far beyond the tidbits I've read in history books and mentions Pagan being used to denote "country bumpkins" hundreds of years ago, lol.

[uriel1972]

42. I believe the term used in the Bible...

For people calling themselves christian while strutting around dressed up to the nines was "anti-christ" as in "They are anti-christ" I forget the chapter and verse, but it is one of the few mentions of anti-christ in the bible.

As for pagan the term was originally used for crude and rustic folk and was initially used against the christians of the time by their sophisticated "pagan" neighbours. Once christian power was consolidated in Rome, the term was used against the remnants of the previous religions.

Yes not all 'pagan' worship was love and roses, but the do unto others was hardly unique to christians. Lest we forget Christianity has had more than a few episodes of grand slaughter and torture. Not to mention oppression and slavery and discrimination.

[Goblinmonger]

45. Lipstick on a pig, my friend.

He is basically saying that only Christians are good people.

And/or, conversely, No True Scotsman.

Either way, if an atheist had said this, they would be crucified here. But since it's the Pope, the apologists are out in force.

[el_bryanto]

48. No True Scotsman doesn't really apply

He's exhorting Christians to be more like what he thinks real Christians should be like. The "No True Scotsman" fallacy, as I understand it, means that no real person of the selected group could be capable of whatever bad action was committed; either the person didn't do it or the person isn't a real Scotsman.

Being a Christian is different because it refers to both a condition (that of belonging to a Christian Congregation) and an aspiration (that of living up to the ideals that Christ taught). By the latter definition, many would argue that there are "no true Christians" but that everybody comes short of the ideals.

In otherwords he was telling people to try a little harder to live up what he believes to be the ideals of their faith. This also applies to your suggestion that his point was that "only Christians are good people," as well.

Bryant

[rustbeltvoice]

50. No.

No, Francis has spoken often enough saying people other than Christians, and other than Catholic Christians are good people. Recently, he has been quoted in an Italian paper, “The Marxist ideology is wrong. But I have met many Marxists in my life who are good people, so I don’t feel offended.” I am sure many similar statements can be found on record.

And "Lipstick on a pig, my friend" is meant to be insulting and condescending. I do not remember all of the comments that i have read on Democratic Underground, but there are several people waiting to pounce on any item that can be used to attack. There are commentators here who maintain a bedrock antipathy. Francis, or any other individual as pope, will be suspect; and as with the criminal system in the US, once suspect, everything will be used to find the suspect guilty.

I do not want to get in a sparring match. I just have the indication, that you will not relent, or be appeased, or concede that an opposing view has any merit. I am also of the thought, that there are some whom are in complete agreement with you.

[Goblinmonger]

51. What he said was bigoted.

Why is that so hard for people to say? And it isn't shocking given his bigoted views on gays and women. No, I'm not going to relent on that. Why would I? Until he shows that he has changed his and his church's views on gays and women and people that aren't of his faith, I'm going to have the same reaction to him.

[cbayer]

52. It's a very small group in actuality.

Most people who post here are very interested in civil debate and discussion.

Welcome to the Religion group. I think you will find like minded people here and those of a different mind who will be fun to talk to.

Sparring matches can be found here regularly, but as they say, it takes two to tango.

[trotsky]

53. Well at least you make sure to get your personal attacks in.

That's good, I guess. It lets you dismiss all the viewpoints you don't like.

[skepticscott]

56. Speaking of attacking

How is "Lipstick on a pig" insulting and condescending? It is pointing out a failed and futile attempt to pretty up something that is fundamentally ugly, in this case, the pope's statement and underlying attitude. It is not a personal attack in any way.

And you can be very sure that if any atheist here had used the term "pagan" as the pope did, the religionists here would be up in arms over it, accusing them of gross insensitivity, if not outright bigotry.

[rug]

67. Not only that, but they're in agreement before he typed anything.

Prejudgment works that way.

[Act_of_Reparation]

46. 'Pagan' is here really not used in reference to a group or individuals of current pagans...

I think you'll find most of the criticism is tongue in cheek, as atheists who make general statements about religions based on their practices and dogma are commonly called "bigots". Apparently, the Pope gets a free pass, though.

[Bradical79]

59. Pagan has always been a pejorative, also what you say about charity is not accurate

"'Pagan' here is more like a comparison to what Christianity had replaced. Some of this is lost to history, but within the Roman Empire the forms of paganism were not benign as some projecting fantasy suggests. One novelty that marked the early Christians from their pagan neighbours was the charity/agape/love they showed each other. "

The very common fantasy is in fact that Christian charity is some unique novelty that differed them from their ancient peers and didn't exist among those practicing the Pagan religions. Charity in ancient Greece and the Roman Empire was in fact widespread, and even well organized by the state at times to a far greater extant than many Christian societies achieved.

[Trillo]

54. Pagan's winter solstice is about 25+ hours away.

...a Christian who struts about everywhere: it’s ugly, eh? That is not a Christian: that’s a pagan!”

He warned Christians against placing themselves above others ...

Those two statements contradict each other.

[uriel1972]

79. Taking it apart...

It seems the Pope is saying, 'If you do x you are acting like non-christians.' Which is saying that not just that x is an act performed by non-christians, but that x is a defining characteristic of non-christians.

Horribly offensive to all non-christians everywhere, I must say. How to win friends and influence people.

But I forgot, this is Super-duper-can-do-no-wrong Pope and I must regard him with an uncritical eye. /sigh

[Warren Stupidity]

80. I guess the pope is allowed a no true Scotsman argument, given the direct line to god.

[Marrah_G]

84. This pagan would like to tell him where to stick it

And as for the term meaning the pagans that Christianity replaced? often times replaced under threat of death from the Vatican.

Instead of saying they are something other then Christians perhaps he ought to say they are Christians who have lost their way and stopped behaving in a way that Jesus would have wanted. They are yours Mr. Pope, own them, then fix them.

[truebluegreen]

104. I generally like this pope, but lay off us pagans!

And as was said above, equating wealth with blessedness is Calvinist, or--even more openly--Mormon.