My Son Arraigned this morning on a drug paraphernalia charge

[rbrnmw]

They said they found a pipe in a bush he was sitting near after a Terry stop. I don't believe it was his pipe. These Terry stops are so crazy.

[bravenak]

1. They put it there

[rbrnmw]

5. I think that or some other person hid it there

but I am positive he isn't stupid enough to carry something like that to go buy cigarettes

[bravenak]

7. No need. Could just buy blunts too

[rbrnmw]

10. exactly the whole premise of the stop was fake

same cop has stopped him several times he know him

[bravenak]

14. Thats why i do not like cops. Like a mafia

[rbrnmw]

16. He said he stopped him cause he saw him throw something when he drove by

The street he was driving on it would be almost impossible to see someone throw something in that bush especially at night.

[bravenak]

17. Yeah right

That sounds stupid

[rbrnmw]

18. his attorney already said we should just plead

he will just get a fine I am not ready for that cause he will have a record and more reason for police to mess with him

[steve2470]

24. yea I would not plead either if I were your son

I've strongly emphasized to my son the necessity of having a clean criminal record, and if you can afford it somehow, I'd get the DNA test and maybe think about another lawyer. Lawyers are damn expensive I know, so, I can understand if you can't do that.

[COLGATE4]

28. I would seriously consider your attorney's advice.

I fully understand the reasons you would prefer that your son not plead to this. Our first reaction is generally to want to go the whole 9 yards and vindicate our rights in court. But you need to take into account some of the harsh realities of the situation. What is your son's exposure IF he goes to trial and is then found guilty. Many of us have unrealistic expectations about how a jury will behave, particularly in a relatively minor criminal case. Judges hate these cases, since they just add to an already bloated criminal docket. And the Prosecutor may well see the chance to pick up a new scalp for his/her collection, particularly if close to re-election.

Discuss all these issues with your attorney before you make any final decision, including his/her honest assessment of your son's likelihood of success if this goes to trial. Assuming you've selected an experienced qualified attorney his/her frank opinion about success should be given a lot of weight.

[rbrnmw]

35. We have a while before pretrial

I will certainly consider your input but ultimately it's up to him he is 21 he works and goes to college. He is basically a very honest good young man.

[COLGATE4]

37. Thank you. I'm sure he's everything you say he is.

But you and I were once 21 and I for one do remember being much more impulsive then than I am today. He's dealing with a whole bunch of unknowns here which involve his pride among other emotional factors. That usually doesn't help in making the best possible decision. A different point of view on the subject from his Father wouldn't hurt. But, as you rightly say, in the final analysis it's his decision.

[rbrnmw]

39. My husband will be here tomorrow

maybe he will have a different take on things than me. I hope this doesn't effect my son's ability to land a good job after college.

[bettyellen]

51. but then you taste like cigars. i never understood that....

[bravenak]

53. I used to. To look cool

Papers now, im old.

[bettyellen]

57. Papers and edibles. Edibles travel well.

[Kind of Blue]

2. I'm so sorry, rbrnmw.

[leftofcool]

3. I bet it was put there.

[JustAnotherGen]

4. Oh god

What happens next?

[rbrnmw]

6. we fight it

I am sure it wasn't his

[scscholar]

8. The Republican's thugs in blue...

don't even need PC for a Terry Stop!

[rbrnmw]

40. that's how they legally harass folks

it's nonsense

[1StrongBlackMan]

9. Were his finger prints on it, and/or ...

was he "seen" tossing the pipe?

Did he drop dirty?

In order to gain a conviction, the prosecution must prove possession or control of the location the pipe was found. Being here it, especially, in out door space, is not enough.

[rbrnmw]

11. supposedly seen throwing it

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

26. Well, if he wasn't wearing gloves at the time

they darn well better find his fingerprints on it, to show that he was the one that 'threw' it.

And how convenient to be stopping people by bushes that just might happen to have pipes in them.

[rbrnmw]

29. yes quite convenient

he was wearing gloves cause it was cold out but if he had it before he left here his prints should still be on it

[LiberalArkie]

12. If it was not his, get a DNA test as it would have his saliva on it.

Only it he is really telling you the truth. You might just ask him "If we should get a DNA test on it?"

[rbrnmw]

13. good question to ask the attorney thank you

[LiberalArkie]

19. I would definitely run it by your son first. I was a young boy a long time ago :>

[rbrnmw]

20. well I already know he smokes

so he has no reason to lie about whether it was his or not to me

[LiberalArkie]

23. Great, just being slightly protective, I had too many of those "Uhh" moments when I was younger.

[rbrnmw]

41. thank you

I think we all had those moments

[1StrongBlackMan]

15. Good Answer ... Expensive; but, good answer.

[steve2470]

21. good advice here, and best wishes to you and your son

[rbrnmw]

22. thanks

[Recursion]

25. F'd up. The one time I was on a jury was a paraphernalia charge

Somehow the public defender got the paraphernalia itself excluded so I never actually found out what it was (the prosecutor actually kept going, and I'm pretty sure it's that the spoons in the guys kitchen were burnt). That was a pretty easy acquittal for all of us. Here's hoping.

So sorry.

[Deny and Shred]

27. I am so sorry

When we consider the limited funds for any investigstion, then consider the amount spent on this sort of ridiculousness, then the paltry funds for left for proper investigations of real criminal activity, then we see the true crime.

Many good practical suggestions upthread. My best, and my condolences.

[Half-Century Man]

30. FWIW, unless it was a glow int the dark pipe thrown several feet into the bush

the officer didn't see shit.

How far away was he?
How fast was he going?
How thick was the traffic?
How many other people were around?
Was the pipe photographed in place undisturbed?

Considering the officer already had repeated contact with your son...
What were the outcomes from the contacts with your son? Is there a pattern?
How many other incidents similar to this are in the officer's history?

[rbrnmw]

33. all good questions an attorney worth his weight should find out

I will be asking the attorney to ask these very questions. He is a PD so I am not sure how much time he will put into finding the answer to these questions. My husband wants to get him a paid criminal defense attorney.

[Starry Messenger]

31. God, I'm so sorry.

((hugs))

[brewens]

32. I was on a jury here in Idaho, that was almost unbelievably willing to give this accused meth dealer

the benefit of the doubt. We were questioning everything the cops had. It turned out the kid was running a clinic on what not to do when out on parole on a meth conviction! I mean he didn't give his lawyer a chance. The lawyer interviewed me after the verdict. They do that to help see where they went wrong. He picked me because he could probably tell I was somewhat sympathetic and taking notes and all that.

I told him he did a great job! He actually scored a major coup getting this k-9 officer to admit that sometimes a drug dog will give a false alert! That shook up the prosecution enough to recall the k-9 cop to come in and attempt to walk that back! I wonder how many times THAT has happened in a drug case?

If you took it to court and you had our jury, with what you're saying being true, no freakin' chance we convict. Unless the cops have a good match on prints from the pipe. That would be asking a lot from some styles of pipes I'm familiar with.

[rbrnmw]

34. this is a marijuana pipe

it had residue in it supposedly

[brewens]

36. I knew that. But a few pipes I have, would be pretty unlikely to yield a good matching print.

They are just that small. It's not like holding a wine glass or something like that. You'd only ever be touching them in the first place with a small part of two fingers maybe. No way they would lift a really sweet full print off of them under the best conditions.

[rbrnmw]

38. interesting

so they are just going to say they couldn't lift prints. I am sure the cop will be believed over my son.

[Bohemianwriter]

42. The war on drugs is not only a fiasco...

It's also a sign of moral bankruptcy.

And it's based on racism and social control in its entirety.
From the opium war against China, where East India Co. imposed China their opium as they seized the opium market. The drug of choice was opium among the upper cass. Gin was prohibited back in England at the same time as when Lord Byron was chasing dragons in his castle
to
persecuting opium smoking Chinese railroad workers (white, middle class women had their herion from the pharmacy)
to
Harry Anslingers war on cannabis in the 30s (after his failed crusade against booze in the 20's) to scapegoat Mexicans and African Americans
to Nixon's intensification of prohibition to rid himself of political opponents. Bringing down African Americans was to him just a bonus.
There was a thaw for a little while when Carter sought to decrimkinalize it and legalize it on state level.
Then we have Reagan who stole the election in 1980 (same tactics as Nixon in 1968) who spoke of "freedom and liberty" and "personal responsbility", "taking government off your backs" and really started the war on drugs while Bush srs CIA smuggled in tons of Cocaine, spread it in African American neighborhoods, and gave DEA a green light. Nancy Reagan had her own skit in this.
What Reagan and Bush did was practically promoting Cocaine by telling people about it before it became mainstream.

That war on drugs continued in the 90s, and "3 strikes, you're out" policy, effectivelly opening to incarcerate a pot smoker for being caught three times for the rest of his life.
And now, this...

If I didn't know better, I would think this is the kind of thing only happening in Stalin's Russia.

[womanofthehills]

43. You must live in a southern state

Residue of marijuana a crime?? It's almost unbelievable in 2016.

[SusanCalvin]

44. This stinks. I am so sorry. nt

[lovemydog]

45. I'm so sorry rbrnmw.

I suggest you make a checklist of questions to discuss with your son, the lawyer and your son's dad. Just the beginning of such a list, here's some things I'd want to know:

What percentage of those cases in your area actually go to trial?
Of those that go to trial, what percentage result in acquittals / convictions?
What's the likelihood, if he wants to go to trial, that the State will drop this stupid case?
Were there other people nearby who could have thrown the pipe?
Were there any witnesses to this incident and what do they say?
At what point are you entitled to review all of the evidence?
What is the possible composition of the jury, should it go to trial?
Is it the type of area where they are likely to disbelieve a police person's story, or disbelieve it? Many areas they tend to believe police. Some areas, they most certainly don't. Those latter areas, the district attorney's office is more likely to drop the case than proceed to trial.
It's important to get a decent handle on this because it's significant as to whether your son should plead out or not.
What exactly is the evidence besides just the officer(s) word? What is the physical evidence in terms of fingerprints, dna, potential witnesses, etc.
What is all the reasonable doubt that can be brought forward to convince a jury to acquit, or more preferably for the State to drop its case?
Do the specific police officers involved have any record of bad dealings in the past?
How is the public defender, in terms of what others say about him or her?
What does the public defender recommend, in terms of pleading out or going to trial, about all the possibilities above?

That's just a few things I'd want to know before hiring a private criminal lawyer.

And when considering hiring a criminal lawyer, before hiring him or her I'd want to know:
Can they limit their costs? If so how?
What is their advice?
What is their success rate?
Can the dad reasonably afford it?
If the answer is yes, what can the criminal attorney provide that the public defender can't, especially in terms of likelihood of getting all charges dropped?
What is their answer to all the questions above?
Make sure you get a free consultation first before deciding to hire them.

There's a lot of other good advice on this thread. I hope this helps a bit in formulating questions that help you and your son and his father make some good informed decisions. The more informed you are, the better you can weigh your options and reduce the risks.

Good luck!

[Number23]

47. Stuff like this is why I freaking love this forum.

This is so incredibly kind of you. All of the advice here is so wonderful. So freely given and so generous.

[lovemydog]

48. Same here.

Many excellent thoughts on this thread.

[bettyellen]

56. Wonderful post. Great to see this here- thank you!

[lovemydog]

58. Thanks for all the great posts in this thread.

We're not criminal lawyers in his jurisdiction. But we are friends who can share what we know and provide friendship. I'm furious that these ridiculous cases even exist. Thankfully there's many out here in cyberspace who feel the same and can offer words of support & encouragement.

[bettyellen]

59. I symbolically bestow a bazillion hearts on you for your contributions here!

:loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya:
:loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya:

[JustAnotherGen]

49. This is excellent!

[lovemydog]

54. As is all of this thread.

Thanks JAG.

[JustAnotherGen]

60. I wish I coud add more

I can only offer my support at this time.

[Digital Puppy]

52. This post right here is worth it's weight in gold...thank you for this! n/t

[lovemydog]

55. Thanks DP.

So many great responses in this thread.

Thanks for all the friends in this great group!

[Kind of Blue]

64. Wow, I sure wish we had someone like

for advice like this. It would have helped to keep better organized in many areas. This is priceless information.

Thank you.

[lovemydog]

65. ...

You're welcome KoB.

Thanks to everyone in this thread and group. I'm grateful for the warmth & camaraderie here.

[Number23]

46. Good Lord. I am so sorry about this for you and your son. What happens now?????

[lovemydog]

50. A few more questions

he & you may consider adding to a checklist:

If your son pleads, can he plead down to something not involving a felony?
In other words, something that he does not have to put on a job application?
And if that occurs, can he get a written promise as to the exact date that it will be expunged completely from the record?
I suggest asking these questions because there may be some way that so long as there are no other incidents, for a certain period of time, he may have it completely expunged from the record.

Just an aside here rbrnmw. I've read and heard people say that if every one of these stupid cases were taken to trial it would clog up the court system and that would be great. But it's easy to sit here encouraging this because it's easier said than done, because we're not the ones taking the risks. I know you and your son and his father will gather enough to make reasoned & strong decisions. Especially your son.

The more information he can gather, especially from the public defender and a possible criminal lawyer and anyone else who is most familiar with your jurisdiction, the better he'll be able to make good decisions that minimize his risk and be confident with his decisions going forward.

That's not to say he shouldn't take it to trial and hope for dropped charges or an acquittal. There might also be a way to plead nolo contendre (not admitting guilt or innocence). Things are negotiable in different ways in different jurisdictions, depending on the court backlog, the budget and political nature of the district attorney's office, the tenor of what happens if these cases are taken to trial, the nature of how charges can be dropped and other factors he can and should research before making well-informed decisions.

[gollygee]

62. Love to your son

And your family <3

I did not even know what a Terry stop was before today and I am disgusted by that. It's a green light for cops to do whatever they want.

[Lisa D]

63. I'm so sorry your son and your family are dealing with this injustice.

Please let us know if there is ANYTHING we can do to help.