JRLeft posted an OP in the GD:P ...

[1StrongBlackMan]

Bernie Sanders is going to have to speak on more issues affecting black people. He's right on the issues, but he has to speak to black in a different way than white people or else he's in trouble. I'm a Bernie supporter, but I won't sugarcoat anything.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511188565

that I wanted to comment on; but, will not do so in that forum ... because, quite frankly, I am not interested in seeing responsive comments from Non-Black DUers that routinely express their belief that they know Black people better than we know ourselves and show hostility to African-American peoples.

JRLeft, I agree that if Sanders is going to have to speak on more issues affecting black people, he has to speak to black in a different way than white people or else he's in trouble. But I think it will be a tough row to row for him, in that I think he, like most white liberals, has a fundamental mis-understanding of the Black condition in America, including Black poverty ... and therefore, his solutions are, largely, unappealing to all (most) but the "youngest", among the Black electorate. (More on the "Black generational divide" to follow)

As Coates recently wrote (again), in his Atlantic piece entitled: The Enduring Solidarity of Whiteness ...

black poverty (is) fundamentally distinct from white poverty ... (And) The pervasive and distinctive effects of racism are viewable at every level of education from high school drop-outs (see pages 13-14 of this Pew report, especially) to Ivy league graduates. I strongly suspect that if one were to investigate public-health outcomes, exposure to pollution, quality of public education or any other vector relating to socio-economic health, a similar pattern would emerge.

And Coates, goes on to ask:

A useful question might arise from such awareness: Has the impact of “universalist social policies” been equal across racial lines?

The honest answer to which, exposes why Sanders' understanding of the Black condition must (from a Black perspective)
change ... which would allow his language to change.

Now, with that said ... I have stated before that the Sanders campaign appears to have made the decision/gamble, early in its formation, that he could make up for his inability to attract the Black vote by attracting more of the working class white vote ... and, based on the Iowa and N.H. elections results ... Looking behind the numbers, the Bernie camp's battle plan/gamble appears to be working ... he has demonstrated that he could attract the white working class vote in sufficient numbers to, effectively, replaced the Black vote.

Now, maybe, N.H. is unique in it's "live free or die", anti-establishment, motto (that I can only assume applies to the Black folks that choose to live there, as well).

The problem is, and much of the Black electorate recalls/knows, ... it has been the Black experience in America that when the white working class comes together, it doesn't work out well for Black Americans, even when the gathering is started, or joined, by Black Americans (see: the tenant farmers/sharecroppers movement, the labor movement, and more recently, the Reagan republicans).

Further, it has been the Black experience in America that the "free" social programming that creates white stability and wealth, rarely, is "free", or stabilizing, or wealth producing, for Black Americans (see: social security, VA benefits, the public housing movement of the late '40s/early '50s, etc.)

Lastly, what the white Left, recently (it seems), refers to as, "the Establishment", includes the "Federal Government" ... the same Federal Government that protected the Black Freedman during Reconstruction, escorted the first Black students into integrated schools, enforced anti-discrimination laws, and was, as an (imperfect) employer, a/the most powerful builder of the Black middle-class. In short, the Black electorate has never been antagonistic with the Federal Government.

These are history points that "young" Black folks are mis-remembering, if they ever knew.

So, will Sanders make head way into the Black vote? ... Probably, so. But if he doesn't examine, and change, his understanding of the Black condition (and express that change in his language), that in-roads will be, largely, limited to the Black "youth".

Then, (or maybe, now) the question becomes/is for the Sanders camp: Will that be enough?

... And for the Black electorate the question becomes/is: without the change, and with history as a guide, what will our future look like with a Sanders presidency.

One more point ...

Should there be an "unchanged" Sanders Presidency, and history does what unlearned history does, woe be to the white left, as the "young" Blacks learn (re-learn) the lessons of history.

[FrenchieCat]

1. Agreed!

My hubby is a bit fed up and has decided that young people will simply have to learn their own lesson...
and it will be the hard way.

Know you may have seen this already,
but just wanted to dovetail this conversation
as to what I believe is the problem with Sanders' approach.

It feels deceptive....
just like he actually doesn't have much good to say about Pres. Obama,
and when he does, it feels forced, IMO.

But perhaps he will be able to fool enough of the people enough of the time during the primaries,
until all gloves are off and at him later down the line.

my view.... http://www.democraticunderground.com/118739074

[Jarqui]

2. Ignoring the Violent Crime Act and Personal Responsibility and Work Opportunity Acts

also supported by Hillary in the 90s, what did or have Bill and Hillary Clinton done to address those issues you raise over their 23 or so years in Washington?

If Sanders must meet a certain standard as you outline above, things like:
"he has to speak to black in a different way than white people or else he's in trouble"
"Has the impact of “universalist social policies” been equal across racial lines?"
"understanding of the Black condition must change"
"social programming" "free", or stabilizing, or wealth producing, for Black Americans"

how did Bill and Hillary meet that challenge when they were in the White House?

[JustAnotherGen]

3. Take a step back

1strong wrote - and I thoroughly agree with:

Now, with that said ... I have stated before that the Sanders campaign appears to have made the decision/gamble, early in its formation, that he could make up for his inability to attract the Black vote by attracting more of the working class white vote ... and, based on the Iowa and N.H. elections results ... Looking behind the numbers, the Bernie camp's battle plan/gamble appears to be working ... he has demonstrated that he could attract the white working class vote in sufficient numbers to, effectively, replaced the Black vote.

Did the white working class - liberal and conservative come together to vote for Clinton in 1992 and 1996? Was that a part of Clinton's appeal?

Keep in mind - the Contract on America was inflicted on us starting in January 1995. I've always felt it was retaliation for winning in 1992. The idea that he would 'allow' his wife to push for Hillary Care. It was beyond them (Cons) that she didn't stay home and bake cookies - and I distinctly remember her getting in trouble for telling that truth.

Clinton ran a very different campaign at a time when Sanders was already in Washington DC. In spite of the riots in L.A. - the racial tension (I was 19 - first election what I voted for Bill Clinton) I don't recall the extreme anger towards black Americans that exists now. A lot of that anger now is simply because a black man beat a white guy two times for the highest office in the land. 'That One' as McCain referred to him - really truly showed me America's face - and it's a bunch of bigots who will smile in your face and put the knife to your throat at the same time.

There was a thread by bravenak yesterday in GD - I won't link to it or the post that triggered this but - we were challenged by a white Senator Sanders supporter - kind of snottily if you will - to 'go ahead and vote against your interests'.

Yet in his tone deafness - he really has no idea what our interests are.

Strange times.

[Jarqui]

33. "Did the white working class ... come together to vote for Clinton in 1992 and 1996?"

I'm not positive but I think they did to a degree. In both years, the GOP beat Clinton by 2pts among all whites. But the over $75,000 or $100,000 income brackets for the GOP beat Clinton by 12-15 pts - and that's the only place they won big. Therefore, Clinton had to win among lower income, working class whites in order to get within two pts of the GOP.

Therefore, in that scenario, Clinton didn't dominate white working class folks but he won them by a decent margin vs the GOP.

However, and this is where I feel my prior words are limited, if you take the entire vote, including Perot, and add Perot's votes to the GOP, then Clinton didn't win more than the other two combined. But I'm not sure that's a fair way to look at it either.

So it's a little muddy to me - not a clear mandate from white working class but enough that it was very key to his election, complimenting his bigger wins with African-Americans and Latinos.

Sorry for the lengthy answer but there didn't seem to a simple answer to your (maybe rhetorical in your eyes) question.

"Was that part of Clinton's appeal?"
I think it's the other way around. More white working class voters felt Clinton appealed more to them than Bush or Perot. I don't think that influenced African-American or Latinos to heavily support Clinton. They made their own decisions.

"I don't recall the extreme anger towards black Americans that exists now"

You're probably right about that. I've seen too many awful things in recent times. But I can tell you that in a number of respects, African-Americans had a pretty awful situation in the early sixties. I was around for that. African-Americans were not regarded as legitimate people - it felt more like they were regarded as second rate animals. So to me, there wasn't as much white anger against them then as there was aloofness "I'm better than you", lack of respect or caring, etc. White people treated their dogs better - I'm not exaggerating. No way a black man could become president - zero chance. etc

So it's different now in some respects. Certain gains have been made in civil rights. Some blacks have done well in today's society that wasn't possible in the '60s. A number of barriers got knocked down over time but there are still barriers to equality.

Sadly, this disdain from some whites seemed to morph into resentment and anger. I tend to see it among people who strike me as really ignorant.

We've seen it with Obama. One key reason the GOP won't work with him is because of the his color of his skin. I'm sure of it. It's hard to believe they could be that ignorant and put their bigotry ahead of the country but that's what they've done .. for 8 years.

That is part of my appeal to Sanders. A lot of those racists in congress are the rich, corrupt pricks Sanders is going after. Hillary is going to try to play ball with them to get little incremental changes to policies. Sanders wants to blow it all up and get rid of them. I know it's an uphill battle for Sanders - the odds are against him but I'm fighting for him. He's heavily on the side of right in this argument. If we can get him elected, then maybe we can get a few more like him elected to congress and end this obstruction BS and racism before country.

"Sanders supporter - kind of snottily if you will - to 'go ahead and vote against your interests'. "
I think that is just wasting our time. Unfortunately, no group of supporters can guarantee there won't be a few ignorant assholes.

From where I sit, I can't recall anything that special that the Clintons did for African-Americans. Between the job losses from NAFTA (that got everyone), the welfare and crime reform, I suspect African-Americans were worse off at the end of his eight years than they were at the start of them. But I could be overlooking things.

Likewise, when I go down the list of policies Sanders brings to the table compared with Hillary's, regardless of the words he chooses, it looks to me like African-Americans get a better deal with Sanders. But I can't tell African-Americans that should decide their vote. Like everyone else, they have to decide that for themselves. All I can do is encourage them to look at what he's about.

[JustAnotherGen]

40. It was anger - especially in the mid 60's and 70's

You're probably right about that. I've seen too many awful things in recent times. But I can tell you that in a number of respects, African-Americans had a pretty awful situation in the early sixties. I was around for that. African-Americans were not regarded as legitimate people - it felt more like they were regarded as second rate animals. So to me, there wasn't as much white anger against them then as there was aloofness "I'm better than you", lack of respect or caring, etc. White people treated their dogs better - I'm not exaggerating. No way a black man could become president - zero chance. etc

My dad came home on leave from Vietnam in 1964 (Alabama) and it was too dangerous for him to vote. That's insane.

Then my parents got ran off the road in 71.

In 78 - that's when we moved here from Germany and I encountered my first mean white person.

My dad grew up in Jim Crow south so I have a pretty good handle on that.



I spent my formative years amongst many elderly former Nazis in Germany - I'm telling you -

There is foaming at the mouth hatred out there - and sometimes it's quiet. It's why people make excuses for that little piece of crap that shot up that church in SC. Yep - even well meaning liberals want us to pity the poor little insance soul.

[Jarqui]

47. Ugh, Awful. Sick.

You would know better than me. I saw hatred, meanness, oppression, all kinds of ugly things but I didn't see the anger directed at blacks. Maybe it was because there was segregation and I lived in largely white areas. I'm not sure. But I'm in no position but to accept your word. I am sorry for your horrid, shameful experience.

[Kind of Blue]

18. 2016 Race "Like Choosing Between

Tuberculosis & Cancer" ~ Ralph Nader

I wish that you can understand that for many of us that is close to how this election season feels.

There was not one mention of Clinton in 1SBM's OP. I think that we are discussing Sanders right now so please stop assuming that everyone here is for Clinton and we need to answer to you.

[JustAnotherGen]

19. Fair point

I think it's becoming pretty obvious that I'm disappointed with both of what is left to vote for.

Who knew I'd ever agree with Ralph Nader. On ANYTHING.

[Kind of Blue]

22. I know! Sometimes politics makes

strange bedfellows

[JustAnotherGen]

23. I feel like I need to take a shower

yuck! Nader - ewwwwww

[Kind of Blue]

27. Oh, when I was coming up

Nader's name was golden. I remember my parents saying something like they've never seen anyone like him trying to protect regular people from the detrimental affects of big busines. He really did a lot of good.

[Number23]

112. Have you seen the numbers of people that voted in New Hampshire??

The number of Dem votes was down over THIRTY FUCKING THOUSAND votes. Meanwhile, Repubs lined up to vote in the Dem primary and quelle suprise! Guess who they voted for???! Even the numbers in Iowa were low.

Check this out. This grand "revolution" is already turning out to be a great big gigantic dud. http://bluenationreview.com/no-bernie-revolution-turnout-should-worry-democrats/

I think it's becoming pretty obvious that I'm disappointed with both of what is left to vote for.

You are most definitely not alone. As those voting numbers show.

[JustAnotherGen]

115. A poster came in last night

Another thread - and asked questions about the impact of the black vote for the states with the highest black populations.

1Strong directed him to Nate Silver.
I directed him to the top 20.

The top 20 is the real story.

We know what is on the line. My at the time of the election 23 year old and 20 year old nephews will show up to vote. They both shifted to Clinton after O'Malley dropped out.

They can't have their lives compromised.
I can't have mine compromised.
My sister can't.
My brother can't.
My mom won't - she's lived in a black family on the tail end of Jim Crow,

It has been awful in this country for black Americans the past few years.

That's not Obama's fault.

That's the attitude of a segment of white Americans who are starting to admit what they really think about us - just look at a Trump rally. They exist.

It's us against them.

I will show up in November. I like my house in my little town - but I know I have ways out of America. Even with ways out - I wil show up.

South Carolina - for Thse black Democratics which took two hits last year - one from the police and one from a racist domestic terrorist - those folks are going to show up.


Something about NJ Democratic party members - the excitement is there to thumb our noses at Chris Christie. We will have a high voter turn out. A vote for Clinton or Sanders is a "fuck you" to that idiot in his mansion in Chatham.

[1StrongBlackMan]

29. I was thinking of editing the OP to read ...

+++ ATTENTION: This OP is unrelated to Hillary Clinton, so if you feel compelled to include "But HRC ..." in your response, DON'T +++

[Kind of Blue]

35. That's a good idea. But she's too deliciously hated

to resist

[JustAnotherGen]

41. I quadruple

Triple

Double

Dog dare you to do it!

[pnwmom]

73. Nader was the one who said Bush and Gore were Tweedledum and Tweedledee.

So much for Nader's pieces of wisdom.

[Kind of Blue]

86. Continue to blame shift. It's easy

to blame Nader for what voters did, among other factors studied ad nauseum - and we know what those are - that led to Gore's defeat.

[pnwmom]

87. What does this have to do with shifting blame? Nothing. This is about Nader's poor judgment.

He said Gore and Bush were Tweedlee and Tweedledum, and therefore it didn't matter which one was President.

And he couldn't have been more wrong. Gore never would have brought us into the Iraq war, and would have had completely different appointees to the Supreme Court. We would be living in a different world if Gore had been President instead of Bush.

[Kind of Blue]

88. You explained exactly what I meant

by blame shifting in your second paragraph. But you attribute that Tweedlee and Tweedledum phrase to encompass everything that happened afterwards. I agree with you and don't like the statement either. But at the time, I took it to mean that both Gore and Bush worshipped at the altar of their corporate gods.

Yeah, we would be living in a different world if Gore had won his home state. We would be living in different world if the race wasn't razor thin in Florida. We would be living in differnt world if Bush's brother wasn't governor. We would be living in a different world if a bunch of people who thought they were voting for Gore picked Buchannan instead. We would be living in a different world if the AA vote in Florida was not 4 times as likely to be thrown out as whites. We would be living in a different world if the Supreme Court did not vote the party line. We would be living in a different world if the 1.3% people who voted for Nader did not vote at all. But all these things and more happened and to put the blame squarely on Nader is just too easy for me to stomach, too easy to look away from our own failings in the Democratic Party. I just can't do that.

[pnwmom]

92. You took Nader's comparison to have a very narrow meaning, but there was no reason to do so.

I took it to mean what he said. That they were essentially the same and it didn't matter which one was elected President.

But they weren't the same and it did matter.

So when Nader makes a similar statement about the current election, no one should listen to him at all.

[Kind of Blue]

93. I claim your view is narrow

and will leave it at that.

I'm happy that you've made your decision, but many people feel especially torn during this season, so I do agree with him that for me this election season feels like choosing between tuberculosis and cancer.

[1StrongBlackMan]

25. This OP has NOTHING to do with HRC, thank you for your attention. eom.

[Jarqui]

36. Sorry, didn't see this before my last post

Let me know if you want it deleted. I was just asking a question.

[1StrongBlackMan]

39. My point is/was you clearly did not read the OP ...

if you thought asking that question was in any way responsive to the OP.

[Jarqui]

43. The op laid out things Sanders needed to do and to me, it didn't seem

unreasonable given the primary candidates involved to ask if Clinton did those things. Anyway, dead issue in this thread. The op triggered me thinking of that question. Sorry.

[Starry Messenger]

4. This part has been puzzling to me too.

"the same Federal Government that protected the Black Freedman during Reconstruction, escorted the first Black students into integrated schools, enforced anti-discrimination laws, and was, as an (imperfect) employer, a/the most powerful builder of the Black middle-class. In short, the Black electorate has never been antagonistic with the Federal Government."

Socialism is increased governmental oversight (which I support) just like this. What then, is the appeal in the Sanders campaign to the anti-establishment? I've thought this was a bizarre line of reasoning, although it seems to have tapped into...something.

[azurnoir]

5. Ta-Nehisi Coates Is Voting for Bernie Sanders Despite the Senator's Opposition to Reparations

there is a long and worth reading discussion that is part of the transcript however the quote is here

AMY GOODMAN: Will you be voting for Senator Sanders?

TA-NEHISI COATES: I will be voting for Senator Sanders. I have tried to avoid this question, but, yes, I will be voting for Senator Sanders. I try to avoid that, because I want to write as a journalist—do you know what I mean?—and separate that from my role as, I don’t know, a private citizen. But I don’t think much is accomplished by ducking the question. Yes, I will vote for Senator Sanders. My son influenced me.

http://www.democracynow.org/2016/2/10/ta_nehisi_coates_is_voting_for

[JustAnotherGen]

7. I think this is the opinion of 1strongblackman

Even though he references coates.

I think you'll find many black Americans aren't follow the leader types - leaders always fuck us over.

[azurnoir]

11. which leaders are you speaking of?

[JustAnotherGen]

13. Politicians, Talking Heads and Journalist Wanna Be Politicians

You don't really expect a 43 year old black women to EVER fall for this 'but he's the only one' nonsense - do you?

I'm so sick and tired of this 'savior' bullshit - seriously can everyone grow up now?

[azurnoir]

15. who's speaking about anyone being savior, personaly I've never said that about any politician

simply that some are better than others

[JustAnotherGen]

17. I agree some are better than others

But it starts and ends at the radio station of 'WIIFM' - be right back with a link from this group.


ETA:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1187&pid=39083

I think we are backing the only candidate who is actually willing and able to understand that, and speak up against the systemic racism that runs through our society like endless diarrhea.

I addressed it at that thread.

Every time I read "so and so is the only candidate" or the "only one" I hear nails on a chalkboard and grit my teeth.

What the youth vote - in particular the black youth vote needs to get in tune with - is what is in it specifically for them and what guarantees there are that these programs are fully inclusive.

So if I'm an 18 year old high school senior at an inner city school who knows America cheated me and my first year at 'free college' (If I can get accepted) will be spent doing remedial work - WII FM.

That's the point 1strong ends with - and the Sanders supporters needed to hold him to any and all promises. Because we will be laying in wait to say, "I told you so."

[azurnoir]

21. I've got a couple of other questions for you

why is Hillary being excused by at least some Blacks for calling young Black men "superpredators"?

and what demographic in the Black community is the Republican party attempting quite unsuccessfully I might add, to tap into by running folks like Ben Carson?

now before you answer you should know I spent most of my adult life around my ex-husbands family a fair number of whom were and are ministers in the COGIC

[JustAnotherGen]

24. I don't know

I'm not a Hillary supporter. You will have to ask one of her supporters those questions!

Ben Carson is a Magical Negro - they needed him for respectability. No one thought he was going to win.

I have no idea what COGIC is. If it doesn't enhance my relationships, make me money, make me happy, or lead to pleasure - I don't pay attention.

[azurnoir]

28. well first off COGIC is Church of G-d in Christ

https://www.facebook.com/ChurchOfGodInChrist/

and it is that church going Black demographic I think Ben Carson was supposed to be tapping into, it didn't work

as to excusing Hillary's comment I'm going to go off into admittedly dangerous ground here because I'm white however to my observation it is because for my some of that Church going Black demographic she wasn't about their sons she was talking about the others the ghetto folk the gang bangers ect, there are divisions within the Black community that rarely if ever get addressed on a message board such as DU

[1StrongBlackMan]

31. Why are you in my OP, addressing everything accept what is is the OP?

[JustAnotherGen]

34. We're off topic aren't we?

I sorry Mr. 1Strong.

[azurnoir]

38. it started with my comment about Ta-Nehisi Coates

sorry didn't mean to offend

[JustAnotherGen]

32. Ahh -

I was raised a Baptist, went to a Catholic High School and I joined the UU Church in 2004 -

I went to a friends mom's funeral in 2005 (Pentecostal Church up in Rochester NY) and I had to leave after three hours and it was STILL going strong.

Yeah - I generally only discuss those kinds of divisions when I'm strictly around black people - or with my mom, husband, or best friend. All three are 'white'. Let me tell ya! The stories my mom could tell marrying my dad in 1969. Yikes! Yowza!

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

106. We discuss these things amongst ourselves. Black people try not to give fodder

to white racists by giving them the luxury of us airing dirty laundry.

In the pews of the churches, in the seats of beauty and barber shops, on discussion boards and blogs, black people talk and we talk about everything--good and bad.

[azmom]

9. Great news. N/t

[Number23]

113. I'm trying to figure out what that has to do with this OP

but it's been five minutes and I still haven't figured it out.

[1StrongBlackMan]

116. Coates.Is.Black ... that is all.

[Number23]

120. I was hoping there was something more but I think you nailed it.

[1StrongBlackMan]

123. You better than that! eom.

[mhatrw]

6. Yes. White people keep trying to ignore profound systemic differences between their own

experiences and those of black people.

But when the alternative choice is the folks who destroyed welfare and pushed the crime bill that made the US a virtual prison state for a huge swath of black males, perhaps it would be more productive to educate Sanders and the white left about these systemic differences?

Many, including Sanders, need to be educated about this. But why do Clinton and her army of white male neoliberal corporate lobbyists get a pass? Have white male neoliberal corporate lobbyists and the wars they foment also been a historical boon for the black electorate?

My take on this is that Sanders has a lot of work to do but does offer a unique opportunity for true social justice progress. In contrast, the Clintons have shown that they will betray or befriend black folks in America depending on their immediate political calculus.

[JustAnotherGen]

10. The white left does not want to be educated

They know what they know and that's that.

I tried the other day - a white female sanders supporter who told me she had a chinese best friend - I was just trying to tell her to stop using 'The Blacks' every other sentence.

She put me on ignore.


Just like Donald Trump - who is racist and uses the exact same phrase.

[mhatrw]

44. IMHO, Sanders wants to be educated, and deaf, dumb and blind on race is a white problem, not a

left problem.

[JustAnotherGen]

48. Sanders wants to win

And since this is a Democratic Site and run in Democratic circles - it's the left we are talking about.'


They think they are better than non leftist white folks - when many have the exact same issues. The difference is -

The candidate supporters on the Right aren't trying to smile in my face and get my vote - while clenching their teeth because it makes them miserable to have to do it.

[mhatrw]

49. All Americans want to win. But those who want a more even playing field

are better than those who want to protect their own privilege no matter what that costs others.

Bu, yes, many white liberals are annoyingly tone deaf on race because they think being better whites than in your face racists absolves them of all sins.

[JustAnotherGen]

50. Sanders is a Poltician who wants to win

You wrote:


44. IMHO, Sanders wants to be educated,

Sanders wants to win first. Pols always want to win.

[Kind of Blue]

8. "JRLeft, I agree that if Sanders is going

to have to speak on more issues affecting black people, he has to speak to black in a different way than white people..."

Sanders' gamble was obvious and his recent actions to make up for it, to me - i.e. every single thing BLM has called for - comes across as fantasy, given the nature of structural racism and history.

I was stunned by his repeated reaction and tried desperatedly to understand, after liking - maybe even loving - him for so long and also grateful for a choice. I wanted to listen and watch the progress of his campaign, so I've never shared this except with my husband. This is from Ted Brodek, a Viet Nam War vet, a staunch socialist, a white guy, an Atlanta activist who we followed around ten years ago when the military was trying to recruit in local high schools and he demonstrated vehemently against it. I needed information about this, especially with a kid in high school at the time and we were not far from Camp Pendleton.

I was surprised when Brodek's name popped up when researching Sanders last year. Here's his comment to an article...

Submitted by ted brodek on Mon, 07/27/2015 - 14:03

Regarding Sanders, a real incident in Atlanta. 3 years ago, Sanders spoke at the IBEW auditorium for the DSA and the AFL-CIO. Usual stump focussing on class solidarity, raising the minimum wage etc. When he was leaving, I went up to him and asked: "why (in Atlanta!) did you make no mention, not once, of the African-American community?"

Sanders replied: "They are not part of my constitutancy."

No black sheep in (h)is flock.

ted brodek

I think a lot of us understood this intuitively. He didn't have to come out and say it. His actions spoke volumes. He's just now learning to speak to us and I'm still listening.

[JustAnotherGen]

12. Are you kidding me with that?

They aren't "part of":his constituency?

[Kind of Blue]

14. Yes, and I believe Brodek.

I've kept up with him. Though I didn't particularly agree with him supporting Cindy Sheehan way back when, I understood completely where he was coming from.

[JustAnotherGen]

16. Yikes!

The Sanders campaign has to squash that NOW if he is the nominee. Like right this minute.

[Kind of Blue]

20. Oh, that was from last year

even before BLM encounters, and never gained any traction. And though it didn't, Sanders' reactions spoke volume. As we know, he's been trying to squash that perception for months.

[JustAnotherGen]

26. If he is the nominee

He's got to!

[Kind of Blue]

30. I agree completely, JAG!

[1StrongBlackMan]

45. That is disappointing, and unfortunate ...

Submitted by ted brodek on Mon, 07/27/2015 - 14:03

Regarding Sanders, a real incident in Atlanta. 3 years ago, Sanders spoke at the IBEW auditorium for the DSA and the AFL-CIO. Usual stump focussing on class solidarity, raising the minimum wage etc. When he was leaving, I went up to him and asked: "why (in Atlanta!) did you make no mention, not once, of the African-American community?"

Sanders replied: "They are not part of my constitutancy."

No black sheep in (h)is flock.

ted brodek

But not surprising.

[Chitown Kev]

85. That comment has been over at BAR for awhile, now

Sanders has a strange habit of making that comment (he said it to the people that were protesting the nuclear waste dump too).

[ismnotwasm]

37. As always, thought provoking

K&R

[Gothmog]

42. Great post

Well done

[lovemydog]

46. Posting to for later.

[randys1]

51. Per this comment

Now, with that said ... I have stated before that the Sanders campaign appears to have made the decision/gamble, early in its formation, that he could make up for his inability to attract the Black vote by attracting more of the working class white vote .

I really dont think Bernie

a. expected to raise a FRACTION of the money he did

b. expected to be able to do well in IOWA let alone tie and then win in NH

c. understands fully the urgency in addressing racism before class/economics; not because he doesn't mean well, but he is white, and us white folks simply dont get it no matter how well you explain it, and the reason is we have no fucking clue what a non white persons life is like and we wont ever know and our privilege allows us that luxury

Now, I dont think Hillary does more than Bernie in the area of race, but she articulates the issue better than most white people.

This election could NOT be a better template or example to WHITE LIBERALS what our fucking problem is when dealing with race.

Now, I wonder if other white liberals can respond and agree with me and point out our problems in dealing with this.

[Tarheel_Dem]

52. K&R!

[Depaysement]

53. Huh?

Lastly, what the white Left, recently (it seems), refers to as, "the Establishment", includes the "Federal Government" ...

I'm not seeing this at all. Bernie and his supporters want the Federal Government to provide free tuition and single payer, among other things, so I'm not seeing a white leftist assault on the Federal Government.

Read Michelle Alexander's mostly excellent piece today in the Nation. It's the smooth talking white centrist Clintons and others like them who not only didn't deliver but actually made things worse for many working class African-Americans.

I don't want to put words in your mouth but it seems like you don't want to join forces with the white left or working class whites because black folks got the short end of the stick in the past when that coalition was built. It's a historically informed perspective but I'm not sure that it is right.

I would postulate that young African-Americans no longer want to be chained to a history they didn't make. I think they want to be free of it. For them, the past is not prologue and they don't want it to be. And t's understandable that they shouldn't want that. They want a bright future instead.

[JustAnotherGen]

55. So black America

Still feeling the sting of FDR's housing policies - should let bygones be bygones. Interesting.

[Depaysement]

58. Exactly who said that?

Not me.

Who is defending FDR's housing policy? Not me.

[JustAnotherGen]

64. See bettyellens response 61

That said - the past is not past - it is now.

Past behavior is also a strong indicator of future behavior.

[Depaysement]

65. I read bettyellen's response

Not keen on why you're pointing there.

Past can be an anchor. Better to move up than be weighed down.

Don't sell the youth short. They get more than you folks think.

[JustAnotherGen]

67. I'm 42 - The Eternal Fairy Godmother

These people -

Include my black nephew who started on Wall Street last spring.
Another who is at Rutgers.
One in Rochester - Afro Latina finishing up PT education.
One eye balling Spelman in two years.
One is six a very very precocious. - that's the one who calls me Fairy Godmother.

I'm pointing there because this is my FAMILY - my flesh and blood.

They are real to me. The older ones are awoke.

They aren't a shiny new ball for someone to bounce and use for their own political gain.

I'm keen because I'm awoke.

Know who awoke me.

THEM.

Bettyellen has been reading my posts back here and out there. She knows precisely where I went with that.

Point Blank - Free College - will not be "given" to black people. It is a lie. This country deliberately and maliciously redlined black people into poor urban areas.

Now - pay attention: those are FDR policies that created Ferguson MO. That created the inner cities.

Your parents benefitted from that racism - as did you.

Your family had a 34 year head start (34-68) -

Wait. I'm not going to educate you. You have the head start. Figure it out yourself.

[Depaysement]

96. You know nothing about me

You"re making assumptions you know absolutely nothing about.

I was trying to engage in a discussion. It's too bad that's not possible.

Btw, I have figured it out. Without the head start.

[1StrongBlackMan]

75. Is this you saying,:"Get over it"? ...

It sounds a lot like it.

[Depaysement]

95. No

You're never going to "get over it." Go forward in spite of it. You already did that, didn't you? The youth want to do that too.

[1StrongBlackMan]

100. I don't understand? Are you talking about me, personally? ...

I moved forward BECAUSE I am firmly rooted in the lessons of the past.

[Depaysement]

101. Ok, that worked for you

You used that to propel you forward. Good for you - and I mean it. But times change. This is the next wave.

The youth need to know the history for many reasons, but they can't become its victim. And what gives me hope is that they don't want to be. Far more of the young have a confidence that I don't want to flush out of them with tales of struggle, woe, loss, as heroic as those struggles were and as necessary as it is for them to know about those struggles. They expect equality and liberty - now, in every way, not as some right they have to fight for, or that others had to struggle for, but as reality today. And frankly, I think they're right.

[1StrongBlackMan]

103. Okay. eom.

[kwassa]

110. How is one a victim of history?

Those that don't know the past are doomed to repeat is, as they saying goes.

Much of our present is the result of the past, the current problems the end effect of past problems. They are not disconnected from one another, but a continuum.

I don't understand your viewpoint at all.

[1StrongBlackMan]

56. Well ...

I don't want to put words in your mouth but it seems like you don't want to join forces with the white left or working class whites because black folks got the short end of the stick in the past when that coalition was built. It's a historically informed perspective but I'm not sure that it is right.

No ... I am explaining the reticence of Blacks to being enamored with the cries for unity and boat lifting. It is historical and it is correct.

I would postulate that young African-Americans no longer want to be chained to a history they didn't make. I think they want to be free of it. For them, the past is not prologue and they don't want it to be. And t's understandable that they shouldn't want that. They want a bright future instead.

Bright futures rarely result from ignoring the past. That is what the "young", in their optimism, have yet to learn.

[Depaysement]

60. Two points

Ok on point 1. I didn't read it that way but it makes sense.

2. Bright futures rarely result from being chained to the past. Many great, unheralded, unknown women and men gave their lives to get here. Don't snuff out their optimism.

[1StrongBlackMan]

62. it is the job/duty of elders and mentors ...

to constantly inform/remind the "youth" of the repeated past, and work with them towards their future.

[JustAnotherGen]

71. Like

What Sanders and Clinton do to me? They are my parents contemporaries.

[bettyellen]

57. When Bernie talks about free college but not inner city high schools or

head start it is an issue. It seems some things never occurred to him. I would love to see him tour some of the worst school in NYC. I bet he would be shocked.

[Depaysement]

59. You're right

Inner city schools in general are a more important fix than free college.

And white education about black history could use a lot of fixing too.

[bettyellen]

61. And it may not be sexy to admit it- but it ain't going to be easy, and it should be a top

priority.

[JustAnotherGen]

70. I'd like to see five years dedicated

To that first or - a money grab from wealthier districts to implement trade programs in poor performing districts. Do that first.

[bettyellen]

72. NY State tried to rectify it's formula to even things out through court cases, they won

and then it was overturned by a judge who said "we also need people to flip burgers".

[1StrongBlackMan]

63. No, he wouldn't be shocked ...

he would do what most of us do ... force it into his (classist) frame, confident that lifting up all schools would solve the problem.

[bettyellen]

66. I know he was utterly shocked to find out that people go to jail for not paying tickets.....

So, I figured he could not imagine how awful the schools are these days. I wonder if he knows about the
failed lawsuits trying to get better funding for NYC schools (where the judge said that some people were going to end up burger flippers)

When he did not know about the Ferguson PD's predatory policies, or that Mike Brown was headed to school soon... I had to wonder if he had done anything more than a cursory skim of the news from Ferguson.

[JustAnotherGen]

68. The schools are deliberate

He was in Congress when I was in high school.

He's not new.

He knows.

But it detracts from the political story line.

Compromises were made.

There wil be no more compromises at the expense of black children.

If he becomes President and makes one - we find someone to primary him in 2020.

[sheshe2]

82. "If he becomes President and makes one - we find someone to primary him in 2020."

Only if we can survive the four years. I have grave doubts.

[JustAnotherGen]

69. Which won't work!

My school district doesn't need help - Camden does.

[bettyellen]

79. which reminds me- I might have been in your neck on NJ last week.....

next time I might PM you first!

[JustAnotherGen]

97. Please do!

My parents gave us a wine fridge as an engagement gift.
Side door is always open.
There's always espresso.
There's always baked goods!

[bettyellen]

98. Nespresso and baked good are my jam! I am with Ms B getting lectured on "tactics" HA.

[JRLeft]

78. White schools receive newer books, and technology black schools get used shit.

[bettyellen]

80. or nothing. have had friends teaching english with no books- she paid for paper to make

copies of stories for them to read. many of her HS kids could not read, and the school was like 25% over legal capacity according to the fire codes. it was not just substandard, it was dangerous.

[JRLeft]

81. I remember my teacher charging us $00.5 for losing a page.

[JRLeft]

90. Sometimes black schools receive books that are 2-3 editions behind.

[pnwmom]

74. Of course the Federal government is a key part of "the establishment.' So why does

Bernie frame himself in opposition to "the establishment"?

[jonestonesusa]

77. Because the establishment is more than one institution, the federal government.

The Establishment is also a mind set, a collection of policies that favor moneyed interests rather than the majority of people, an explicit effort to minimize and ignore dissent and change in favor of the status quo. There's a difference between a senator like Mitch McConnell and a senator like Bernie Sanders when it comes to Establishment politics.

[JRLeft]

54. Agreed, that's why I said he needs to make inroads with black millennials.

He needs to lay the seeds for later, I see Clinton winning the nomination still.

[lovemydog]

76. Thanks 1SB and all posting here

for yet another fascinating thread.

[betsuni]

83. Very interesting thread, thank you! nt

[sheshe2]

84. KnR

[FrenchieCat]

94. Great conversation!

I miss that...a lot!

[1StrongBlackMan]

99. I wonder when the last time someone said that about a GD:P thread? eom

[bigtree]

102. these are my thoughts to a T

...you really captured what I was just now itching to write. EVERY one of your observations...

Let me echo/highlight just this one thought of yours and get it out of my system...

:...what the white Left, recently (it seems), refers to as, "the Establishment", includes the "Federal Government" ... the same Federal Government that protected the Black Freedman during Reconstruction, escorted the first Black students into integrated schools, enforced anti-discrimination laws, and was, as an (imperfect) employer, a/the most powerful builder of the Black middle-class. In short, the Black electorate has never been antagonistic with the Federal Government."

This occurred to me reading the negative responses to the Black Caucus support of Hillary, and a critique was made in DU's spectacularly 'revolutionary' fashion that the BC was 'establishment.' Bravo for your rejoinder, whether or not you were aware of those exchanges.

On a side note, I just read one of our prominent anti-Hillary crusaders griping that she couldn't attack black politicians because was sure she'd be called a racist. 'It's happened before,' she said, oblivious.

[1StrongBlackMan]

104. I was not aware of the CBC endorsement until just this morning ...

But, there appears little space between the anti-establishment left and right ... they both, love the Federal Government just so long as it is accomplishing their ends; but, the moment the Federal Government spends a moment on something else (not that it is harming them in any way, just not focused on them), the Federal Government is chock full of "establishment" lackeys, and must go.

[bigtree]

105. gotta love the tiff that's popped up about who's actually endorsing

...the PAC or the membership. Some Bernie folks trying to put a wedge between the 'leadership' of this group announcing the endorsement and the members.

Lol, the vast majority already on record identifying their support for her candidacy.

The establishment lingo is a throwback, ironically, to a time where there was only lonely Ron Dellums and a handful of other blacks in Congress (one republican). Black legislators being part of the establishment (or hoping they are) is a vehicle for empowerment of their black constituencies. The notion of tearing these folks down in a revolution which doesn't appear to be interested in your input may not be the best appeal for a candidate.

[bettyellen]

114. Could not agree more w/ " The notion of tearing these folks down in a revolution....

....which doesn't appear to be interested in your input may not be the best appeal for a candidate"

and am feeling a similar way about the OP out there now challenging Clinton people to SOLVE RACISM as if it is a monkey puzzle.

I am picturing the OP right now:

(gleefully) You didn't solve racism!!! (hits buzzer)

[aikoaiko]

107. I mostly agree with what you and JRLeft wrote

Its obvious to all that his message is not resonating broadly with the African American community. Or, which I think might be more accurate, the rate of switching from HRC or undecided to Bernie has been too slow. Many Black writers warned Bernie and while liberals this would be the case.

I doubt that Bernie or his campaign to made the 'calculation' to replace black voters. I think it is more likely that Bernie is dedicated to remaining true to his message which happens to function that way. By and large and I don't think Bernie has been opportunistic.

Nevertheless, if the majority of African American voters don't want Bernie's agenda it will be a learning experience for other liberals. Perhaps the next one, maybe Elizabeth Warren, will learn to incorporate more POC issues into their plans and build relationships with the Black community long before the primary (which is HRC's true strength).

[FrenchieCat]

108. I have to disagree on Bernie's calculations or lack thereof.....

He is making grand promises that he cannot keep....that in itself is a calculation,
as his only answer when he is asked how will you get anything passed under a
gerrymandered congress, he replies that he will be leading a Revolution.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/118739074

Add the fact that voting on our side was down in both Iowa and NH,
than it was in 2008...
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/02/10/democrats-may-have-an-enthusiasm-problem-in-2016/
http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511198171

People know the word "Bamboozled"
So if the Revolution isn't televised....
What is Sanders' Plan B to make good on what he has promised?

[1StrongBlackMan]

109. I would agree; but, for different reasons ...

The Sanders campaign has said, and done, things that can only be interpreted as having made the calculation ... early on, his language about Democrats losing, and his desire to win back, the white working class ... his speaking at Liberty Union ... even his more hot-headed supporters demonstrate they see it with their, "Who needs them?" comments.

[Number23]

111. This is wonderful! How the heck did I miss this??

I haven't been around as much lately. K&R

[1StrongBlackMan]

117. I loved the back and forth that the goes on in the AA Group ...

But, I'll tell you ... I'm going to take a break from this place after SC, as this place will be intolerable regardless of the outcome ... if (as I suspect) HRC wins big, and big among the Black vote; the Bernie fans' cries of conspiracy, rigged system, "stupid negroes, and just plain pissiness, will be over the top ... and, if Bernie loses by less than 22 points, their gloating and arrogant ignorance (and attacks on PoC) will blow the top off, especially if he loses the Black vote big ... and in the extremely unlikely event that Bernie loses by single digits (or, wins) and closes the Black gap to single digits (or wins the Black vote ... OMG!

[JustAnotherGen]

118. ITA

Oodles of scenarios.

I spent some time reading through DU2 around the Prop 8 time. Number23 had alluded to the "climate" at DU after that.

Multiply it times 10,000,000.

It's going to be ugly here.

I'll just read the jackass site to keep calm and laugh it on.

[Number23]

122. Prop 8 was so bad here it was ridiculous. Chitown Kev has even alluded to it and he wasn't even on

DU at the time. That's how fucking bad it was.

But it will be the same result. Black folks will be blamed for everything. Bet on it.

[Number23]

121. I'm way ahead of you on the taking a break thing. I've already started

After seeing people screaming as though Sanders' win in NH was the "beginning of the end" despite the incredibly low turnout of Democratic voters and the fact that independents and straight up Repubs were allowed to vote (and guess who they went for????) I've just lost all interest.

Add on the open, blatant and PASSIONATE racism that's been tossed at AA voters and activists from his supporters since July of last year and I just don't care anymore. This has been the most revolting primary I've ever experienced. I've gone from not being excited about either one but feeling that either would be good in the White House to not being excited about either one but feeling that Hillary is the one that needs to be there.

Somebody actually came into the fucking AA forum to post that unintentionally hilarious "AA's are BERRRNNNING for Sanders" idiocy. And you know that we'll be blamed if/when he loses. I'm just done.

[1StrongBlackMan]

124. I hear you ...

I've gone from not being excited about either one but feeling that either would be good in the White House to not being excited about either one but feeling that Hillary is the one that needs to be there.

And ...

And you know that we'll be blamed if/when he loses.

Yes ... we will, even though Black folks will do as we always do in the General Election ... vote for the Democratic nominee. And there will be not a peep about the millions and millions of "disaffected white working class" that were suddenly to appear; but, didn't ... as Iowa and N.H. has shown.

[Jamaal510]

119. K&R