'Iowa’s Black Caucusgoers'

[Number23]

'Iowa’s Black Caucusgoers'
Charles M. Blow
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/01/opinion/iowas-black-caucusgoers.html?_r=0

As Wayne Ford, co-founder and co-chairman of the Iowa Brown and Black Forum, told me Sunday, the level of excitement in the black community is “nowhere near where it was 2008” when Barack Obama was a candidate.

Also, the preference for Clinton over Bernie Sanders was a two-pronged assessment; it was a sophisticated weighing of comfort and of policy without an absolutism of good vs. bad, but rather a matter of degrees better or worse, more real or more fantasy.

... For Sanders’s part, he seemed to be judged too unfamiliar and too absent, particularly down the homestretch. This feels to me like a terrible tactical error. No matter how much his positions and policies may benefit black voters, they are no more interested than any other group of voters in a long-distance love affair. You have to show up. You have to put in the time.

Money Quote:

On the policy front, many simply found Sanders’s policies unrealistically ambitious, an over-promising of giveaways. As one woman put it, “He sounds like Oprah: ‘You get a car! And you get a car! And you get a car!’ How is he going to pay for all that?

Not one. Damn. Word. in this piece will be of any surprise to any of the regulars in this forum.

The piece pretty much concludes two things: that Black folks even in freaking Iowa went overwhelmingly for Hillary and nobody black is even half as excited about this election as we were when Obama's name was on the ticket. Again, these are two things that everyone here already knew.

Not that it will do anything to diminish the "black folks just don't know who Sanders is yet" garbage that despite months of being told how ignorant and offensive this is, still floods this web site. And always seems to be inevitably followed by an embarrassingly idiotic "Black folks are feeeeeeling the BERRRRNNN!!!!11one" video that is as divorced from reality as it is quality production skills. This piece does nothing but corroborate what black members of this forum have been saying for MONTHS and we all know that it will once again be dismissed by the willfully clueless who are determined to see the world only as they want it to be and not as it is.

[Tarheel_Dem]

1. I have to admit that Blow is correct on all counts. Am I as OTT excited as I was in '08? No.

But do I recognize the one candidate who is most qualified, and best positioned to build on the successes of my most favorite President ever? Y-E-S!!!!!!!!!!!!

That poor girl from the Sanders campaign must be exhausted. They have trotted her all over the place to represent (or give the illusion of) the "diversity" of the BS campaign (how appropriate). She appears to be a staple on the MHP Show these days.

All that being said, the outcome of these primaries is well known. He's not connecting, and I don't care how many times it's denied here at BSU, the fact remains that there is no significant "Bern" among AA's. As a matter of fact, I suspect if there was polling data on a third Obama term, black folk would be in the 90+ percentile.

[Number23]

2. "That poor girl from the Sanders campaign must be exhausted."

Who? Nina Turner or Symone Sanders, the press liaison? As much as I love seeing sisters in the political spotlight and as eloquent and amazing as Turner is, only Bernie Sanders could get away with having someone as insignificant as a former State senator be designated an official spokesperson just because she has melanin. I sincerely hope that she uses the spotlight she's been given by this campaign to reinvigorate her own political career. And honestly, I have absolutely no idea why Keith Ellison has not been more prominent in this campaign.

But do I recognize the one candidate who is most qualified, and best positioned to build on the successes of my most favorite President ever? Y-E-S!!!!!!!!!!!!

And that's why you need to read Kev's latest piece because he is bang on correct. Obama's name will become a mantra to Clinton over the next month or so and for exactly the reason that you said. Obama is a force and is beloved among the Democratic base. Hillary will want nothing more than to tap into that.

[Digital Puppy]

3. Keith Ellison..one of my favorite politicians

And honestly, I have absolutely no idea why Keith Ellison has not been more prominent in this campaign.

It *could* be that he is Muslim and that fact might scare the 90%+ voters in Iowa and New Hampshire who are white.

[Number23]

5. He is one of my favorites too.

It *could* be that he is Muslim and that fact might scare the 90%+ voters in Iowa and New Hampshire who are white.


I honestly don't know what's going on there. But if what you're saying is true then that makes all of this even more pitiful than it is now.

[randys1]

6. Ellison is on Bernie's team? Didnt know that. Then you hit it on the nose, would translate that they

know who their supporters are, and dont want to scare them off.

[Tarheel_Dem]

8. Symone Sanders is the one I was thinking of. I'm afraid that Nina, much like Cynthia McKinney, may..

find herself without a home, politically speaking. She switched her support, and while she may see it as a political opportunity to be one of a handful of high profile black supporters, I see it as certain death. I have no doubt she will back the eventual nominee, and can be a formidable spokesperson, but she chose that limb she went out on.

You're right, Keith has not been the forceful front man I expected. He may be keeping his powder relatively dry for the MN caucuses. Who knows? But both Keith & Nina are in "sketchy" company AFAIC. I wouldn't want to be in the same state as Cornel West, let alone the same room.

[Number23]

10. Sanders if nothing else deserves serious props for putting alot of fairly low profile black people

on the national stage.

We would have never heard of Nina Turner, Symone Sanders or probably Killer Mike if it weren't for his campaign.

[Tarheel_Dem]

14. Nina Turner came to national notice when the Ohio S.O.S. was screwing with AA voter rules.

The other two, I had never heard of until recently.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

59. I didn't know about Symone. My understanding is that he grabbed her after the initial confrontation

with BLM because he needed one of us Negroes to him get us black folk in line.

Killer Mike has been around for quite some time. He came to prominence after the Trayvon Martin verdict. But he's a largely unknown rapper from Atlanta.

[Tarheel_Dem]

94. "Unknown" is right. I still don't know who Killer Mike is, and could care less. Hope that doesn't..

sound crude. Oh well....

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

98. You got it. :)

[Number23]

60. And wasn't it a black SoS that was doing the screwing??

[comradebillyboy]

92. I remember that guy, he was black and very very partisan.

It was Ken Blackwell if memory serves me right.

[Number23]

101. Yep! That sounds right

[Tarheel_Dem]

96. I think it was Ken Blackwell (who is black), and then his successor took it to new heights. n/t

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

57. One of the podcasts I listen to had a segment that allowed callers to share their experiences workin

on the respective campaign. A black gentleman from Alabama called in to share his experiences about how the white volunteers for Sanders have been discriminating against him and other black men who were volunteering. He recounted a scenario where white volunteer directors would give all the manual labor and heavy lifting tasks to the black gentlemen while the white volunteers got to do the desk work--the fun stuff...the "in the weeds" stuff. He also told of how he and other black volunteers were being shut out and disrespected. They also felt segregated from the rest of the team while the white volunteers would go to lunch and dinner and hang out in groups. None of the blacks were invited to join them.

The host of the show asked the gentleman to call in frequently with updates.

[Tarheel_Dem]

95. I don't need anymore proof than what you've just told me to know that black folks are nothing....

more than props in the BS campaign. Nina Turner should hear about the black volunteer experiences, I have no doubt she would raise a stink you wouldn't believe.

I've maintained that BS' campaign is full of young white male testosterone, much like Silicon Valley & the gaming industry. Their goal isn't really inclusion, it's the same as Donald Trump. I heard a Trump supporter this morning talking about "political correctness run amok", and that's the same feeling I get from the BS'ers. They're flipsides of the same racially insensitive coin.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

99. Is "BSr's" a Freudian slip? LOL!! BTW, the Bernie volunteer called back into the program...

...and reported that he has not returned to the local Sanders campaign to volunteer. However, he did not report whether or not he kept in touch with the other volunteers.

[Tarheel_Dem]

103. BS'ers are followers....er, I mean "supporters" of BS.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

105. Indeed! ;)

[randys1]

4. If you know who would pay attention to what you have said here for months, if it

managed to filter out into the atmosphere and Bernie's campaign, things might be different.

I have sat here and watched day after day you know who lecturing Black folk here, but when I observe this out loud I am silenced.

If I wanted a certain group to warm up to my candidate, I would talk to them, not about and at them.

[Number23]

7. They are all too busy high fiving idiotic videos that deliberately antogonize black people

And then when they're done with that, they'll dismiss every single poll or takeaway from black people that attempts to tell them they have no fucking clue what is going on or what they are talking about, and after they're done with that they'll then post open-mouthed astonishment as to why more poc aren't joining in their "revolution."

Next day, rinse and repeat.

[randys1]

9. And what angers me to no end is this really is our only chance to see

the kind of change that must occur at least in my lifetime.

And Bernie does NOT have to win the election to effect the change.

To get single payer and other stuff that is necessary all that is needed is for the moderates of the party to realize they must be the agents of this change.

Obama started it and now Hillary must complete it (assuming she wins)

They wont have a choice if we demand it, but first there has to be a resolution to the racial issue and that is reparations for me (not reparations for me, but you know what I mean)

I dont deserve nor expect ANY of the things I know I should have by default, whether that is single payer, education, and so on until those who have been wronged are righted. AA NA JA, all 3 groups...

[PragmaticLiberal]

93. It almost seems like they'd rather "be right" than see Bernie actually win.

[emulatorloo]

11. Very good Op-Ed, thank you so much for posting it.

[Number23]

12. You are more than welcome. I thought it was an interesting read myself.

[Number23]

13. Related: "among the 9 percent of non-white Democratic caucus-goers in Iowa on Monday...

...Clinton won by a wide margin, 58-34 percent"
From http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/schisms-carve-iowa-contests-leaving-murky-political-calculus/story?id=36656482

An interesting extra to add to Blow's account.

[Cha]

40. So interesting, 23. Good to see this. I've seen the stats on how the Dems &

Unions were more for Hillary but not these..

A majority of Democratic caucus-goers, 55 percent, said the next president should generally follow Barack Obama’s policies, rather than pursue more liberal or less liberal approaches. And those who lined up with Obama were an especially strong group for Clinton, 68-26 percent vs. Sanders.

LOve it!

"Finally in the Democratic contest there’s the question of race. Whites accounted for 91 percent of Democratic caucus-goers – a lot, even if low by Iowa Democratic caucus standards. Whites also dominate in New Hampshire. But they accounted for 65 percent of voters across all Democratic primaries in 2008. And among the 9 percent of non-white Democratic caucus-goers in Iowa on Monday, Clinton won by a wide margin, 58-34 percent."

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/schisms-carve-iowa-contests-leaving-murky-political-calculus/story?id=36656482

Unions~

Ari Melber
✔ ?@AriMelber
And Clinton beat Sanders among union households by 9 points, undercutting some conventional wisdom.
7:38 PM - 1 Feb 2016
189 189 Retweets 153 153 likes

SEIU
✔ ?@SEIU
@HillaryClinton won this close, hard battle with strong SEIU ground support & turn out! #ImWithHer #SEIUForHillary https://twitter.com/AriMelber/status/694394551327391744 …
4:05 AM - 2 Feb 2016
25 25 Retweets 34 34 likes

http://theobamadiary.com/2016/02/02/early-bird-chat-655/#comments

Thank you!

[Number23]

63. "Clinton beat Sanders among union households by 9 points, undercutting some conventional wisdom"

Yes, it most certainly did.

Those are great. Thanks, Cha!

[Cha]

66. You're Welcome.. thank you!

[Spitfire of ATJ]

15. A lot of people don't realize just how rich the rich actually are.

[Number23]

19. Do you have a point to make that relates to this OP?

[Spitfire of ATJ]

22. The part where there is a question of how Bernie is going to pay for it....

My mother was raised on a farm where money was scarce. It's hard for her to imagine someone making millions of dollars a year, every year. Much less every month.

There is a fear campaign to make people who are already pinched believe Bernie is going to make their live harder.

[Number23]

23. Gotcha. Understand now.

[MADem]

16. I keep hearing that if you're not on that BS bus, you're a low information voter!

And thus, under the bus!!!

[Starry Messenger]

17. I don't see how anyone Black or otherwise could have not known about Sanders in Iowa by 2/1

From what I hear, that state is pretty much carpet-bombed with ads for weeks. Sanders was doing massive ad buys. If people didn't vote for him, it wasn't out of not knowing who he was. Not everyone is a Paul Simon fan...

[Number23]

20. And that's exactly the point. Black people did know about Sanders and still voted for Hillary, even

in Iowa, by almost 20 percentage points.

If people didn't vote for him, it wasn't out of not knowing who he was. Not everyone is a Paul Simon fan...

Was that the music in the first Sanders ad that was pretty much panned by everyone under the age of 65?

[Starry Messenger]

25. The ad he didn't even talk in.

It's pictures of cows and Simon and Garfunkel. "America"

It is passing strange that Black people are singled out for "not knowing" about the candidate in this race...Iowa should put the lie to that crap.

[Cha]

41. Or if they were Simon & Garfunkel fans they still might have wondered how that related to

the Diversity in America which is what the ad was supposedly about. Did you see the Daily Show's take on that ad?

Whereas Hillary's ad was inclusive as it should be.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1107&pid=38007

Mahalo Starry~

[Starry Messenger]

46. No, I hadn't seen the Daily Show take.

Looked it up--haha! http://lastnighton.com/2016/01/29/the-daily-show-mocks-bernie-sanders-simon-garfunkel-ad/

I told another friend I thought it looked like an ad for artisanal goat cheese. I really didn't get the raptures over it.

[FrenchieCat]

48. It was an ad that was subliminal…

it was really promising 40 acres and a mule, without saying it.

[Starry Messenger]

52. Ouch! lolol

Zing!

[Chitown Kev]

18. I read this

Thing is, I know that Blow ain't all that peachy keen on Hillary, either.

But, apparently, we must get the message that Hillary Clinton is evil incarnate and, if not, well, we're Monsanto loving oligarchs too...sick of these entitled white Bernie supporters

[Number23]

21. That's the point! Most black folks aren't too peachy on Hillary. The enthusiasm in the black

community for this primary/election is at record levels.

And yet, even in tiny, white assed Iowa, a strong majority of minorities voted for Hillary. And I would think that living in Iowa would bring out the ummm... ADVENTURER in even the most pragmatic black person. And yet, black folks there went for Hillary.

But, apparently, we must get the message that Hillary Clinton is evil incarnate and, if not, well, we're Monsanto loving oligarchs too

Don't even get me started.

[Empowerer]

37. Black voters are very intelligent, informed and savvy - we're also very fair and don't like seeing

people picked on and bullied.

Many black voters may not be feeling overly enthusiastic about Hillary Clinton right now - it's hard to feel that way in the wake of Obama since anyone following him seems like a bit of a letdown. But black voters like, respect and appreciate her and her husband and have a strong connection to her, almost like family.

So let these folks keep beating up on her in the nasty way they have and see what happens. If people start to feel that she's being treated badly, watch out - we protect our own and we do it fiercely.

Hell hath no fury like black folk when we go into Mama/Papa Bear mode.

[Cha]

42. ..

Thank you!

[FrenchieCat]

24. If Obama would have ran on a socialist platform and call for political revolution

Last edited Wed Feb 3, 2016, 01:44 AM - Edit history (2)

He wouldn't have won Iowa....
or any other state for that matter,
even if the country was in financial freefall!
Obama would have been put under the floorboards about 8 months before any votes,
that's about all he would have got.

Instead,
President Obama had to be
perfect is so many ways just to win the election
and get elected....
had to be tall, dark (but not too dark), young, handsome,
Harvard educated, First Black President of the Harvard Law Review,
have a beautiful young family,
great Orator,
Best selling winning author,
Grammy winner,
Senator from one of the biggest state,
have center left policies,
sense of humor,
be a really cool guy,
and a super election organizer,
Keynote speaker of the 2004 National Convention,
win all of the newspaper endorsements,
have folks like Teddy Kennedy endorse him,
and prove both his patriotism and
his religious beliefs,
etc, etc, etc,


While Bernie can walk around being 75 years old,
at times appear disheveled,
have a family history that's quite complicated,
be non religious (even if he is Jewish)
have only a BA in Political science,
with Socialist affiliations going back decades
as he talks about redistributing the wealth,
and simply promises everything,

The guy can literally walk around any old way, and he's just great!

and don't let me get started as to what Hillary has to have done and been....
hell, from looking at Bernie, perhaps she's just too damn qualified!

Now.....that's some White Male Privilege!

[Tarheel_Dem]

26. ^^^ THIS ^^^

[ecstatic]

27. + infinity! nt

[Chitown Kev]

30. Two snaps in a circle

for critical and necessary reading.

[betsuni]

32. I was irritated at Sanders' after-caucus speech last night.

Because of this. Why do I have to think he's so great? Obama and Hillary are never given the benefit of the doubt, ever: have to watch everything they say and do, their facial expressions, every little thing. Obnoxious Sanders supporters make me think, "Who the hell do you think you are and why are you telling me what to do?" and I'm beginning to feel the same thing about Bernie.

[JustAnotherGen]

33. You nailed it

Excellence is meh -

Minimum is great.

I know he is just hated here - but it's almost as if in 2007 Obama said - "how can I out do Harold Ford?" I remember my father saying - "I though it would be Harold Ford". That will probably enrage some people at DU - and that's okay. He also said - "This kid would have been friends with my father." He was talking about Obama.

They don't understand how black politics, black organizations, and "Our Kind Of People" have quietly defied America. Obama was not "Our Kind Of People" - yet his Excellence immediately gave him entrance to the club.

The poorest black folks on the South Side of Chicago recognized it - and so did the third and fourth generation HBCU grads - and all that being third or fourth generation HBCU implies.

Neither Clinton nor Sanders has the background to trigger that admiration across all parts of black America. They just don't. However I'm faced with the devil I know vs the devil I don't know AS well.

The devil I know won't throw away SCOTUS appointments- to throw every single bank CEO in prison for breaking laws that don't exist.

[sahel]

34. Yes, but it cuts both ways

Obama generated huge degrees of enthusiasm and filled huge stadia with much the same crowds that Bernie is garnering now. in fact white, young liberals went strongly for Obama in Iowa back when Clinton was still outpolling Obama amongst AAs by a factor of two to one.

This was despite the fact that apart from the Iraq war vote, nothing about Obama or his platform was significantly to the left of Clinton. The enthusiasm from white liberals was because he was loquacious, he was Black and he voted against the Iraq war, that was about it. It was good enough for me and it still is, if the choice was between Obama and Clinton I would still take Obama in a heartbeat.

Being black enabled him to run as a centrist and yet still have a point of difference, whereas other insurgent candidates had to hold themselves out as leftists either disingenuously (i.e. Edwards) or legitimately (i.e. Kucinich). Of course, the flip side was that being a black man, he had to run as a centrist in order to not spook the horses as far as independents were concerned. I absolutely concede that.

Obama himself has been open about this, saying that being black gets him a little more mileage definitely with black people but also some white people, while it costs him some with others.

i still think that a politician from the black left could be successful, I think about Paul Robeson and the reverence that many people had for him, but it would be difficult.

[FrenchieCat]

36. How does it cut both ways?

You think that Obama's biggest advantage was that he was Black? My point was that he could only run while Black as long as everything else was damn near perfect. How is that an advantage? Being near perfect is quite a task! Even in his blackness, part of what made him that much more acceptable, was that he was only half Black!

But more to my point, white male politicians don't have to be even near perfect, and I used Bernie Sanders as an example. In more ways, Sanders is even less then what one would expect as a baseline for a politician aspiring to the highest office in the land... Especially these days. For starters, normally, a male presidential candidate is supposed to be tall, youthful, have hair, and that's just In the looks department. we are that type of a society.

example, although even now, few would admit it, John Edwards only got as far as he did based pretty much on his looks and one popular speech. If you recall he had also voted for the war, which didn't seem to stop an awful lot of the same liberals currently saying Hillary is terrible for the exact same vote. The only difference is that Edwards, like Sanders, understood that if you tell people what they want to hear, they will follow you.... Even if you end up delivering nothing. Now that's seems to be OK!

That's one of the things I've always admired about Obama. He had the tendency to actually not tell folk nothing more than he felt was possible. In fact, the one promise that he broke in reference to closing Gitmo, he has still not been forgiven for that! Even if there is a good reason, like Congress wouldn't let it happen.

I also find that to be the case with Hillary Clinton. She's not overpromising, and why should she? Should she actually lie or imply that she could get things done that she really couldn't? Oh, but of course, she is a woman, so no, she has to also be damn near perfect.

The biggest hypocrisy of all is that now we have Sanders running on an entire slate of policies, none which would pass Congress, but we're supposed to want to vote for for him anyway!

To me, that reeks of white male privilege.

[sahel]

44. In the way that Obama said that it did...

“There’s no doubt that there’s some folks who just really dislike me because they don’t like the idea of a black President,” Obama told The New Yorker’s David Remnick in the magazine’s Jan. 27 issue.

“Now, the flip side of it is there are some black folks and maybe some white folks who really like me and give me the benefit of the doubt precisely because I’m a black President,” he added.

http://www.msnbc.com/politicsnation/some-dont-the-idea-black-pres#49746

I think that's broadly accurate. I still think being Black is a net disadvantage, electorally, but I number myself as one of those white people who is more inclined to view Obama more sympathetically because he is Black. There are of course racist white people, but I think by this stage most of them have been voting Republican for some time now.

In fact, the one promise that he broke in reference to closing Gitmo

He broke plenty more promises than that.

To take one very small, but demonstrable example - as a candidate, Obama pledged to call the Armenian genocide by its name during his term in office. Seven years have passed since and he has broken his promise during each of those years. He can't use congress as an excuse, all he needs to do is "say the name", so to speak:-

http://edition.cnn.com/2015/04/24/politics/armenia-genocide-obama-broken-promise-jake-tapper/

He had the tendency to actually not tell folk nothing more than he felt was possible.

Most of the time he failed anyway.

Obama supported a rise in the federal minimum wage to $10. He failed. He supported a public option. That failed. He supported background checks on assault weapons purchases, which also failed. Thats the nature of a Republican congress. They're going to oppose a rise in the minimum wage whether its $10 or $15.

Of course Sanders will fail at trying to get some of his agenda through congress, just like any President. But if we're going to excoriate Sanders for being a potential failure then we should at least, for consistency's sake, excoriate Obama for being an actual failure.

The biggest hypocrisy of all is that now we have Sanders running on an entire slate of policies, none which would pass Congress

I doubt that any policies of Obama, Clinton or Sanders would pass the current Congress.

[Empowerer]

38. Absolutely brilliant - even more so than usual, Frenchie! You should publish this!

[FrenchieCat]

70. You are too kind my dear!

[Empowerer]

39. Can you imagine Obama having even one of piece of history that is seen as "quirky" in Bernie?

Imagine, for example, if he had a child out of wedlock.

He could never, ever have run for President, much less been a serious contender.

And let's not even talk about being a Socialist. He's been the Democratic president for 7 years and STILL is beating back accusations that he's a Muslim Socialist.

White male privilege indeed.

[Cha]

43. Love it, Frenchie!

[BlueMTexpat]

47. Someone already used "+infinity"

and that is as close to a summing up of your wonderful response as I can get!

[Quayblue]

54. Speak! eom

[brer cat]

80. Perfect!! nt

[lunamagica]

90. + A million!

[Digital Puppy]

97. Yup!! Thanks for this!

[uponit7771]

108. Amen!!

[kcjohn1]

28. Curious

How old those people who where quoted in that piece. IMO the big delta is more do to with age gap vs racial. Bernie lost huge with white older voters (65+) to.

One thing I can believe is that enthusiasm in the black community will not match 08/12. It may even lower than 04.

[Number23]

29. The race gap has been discussed a hundred billion times

There may also be an age gap as well.

[1StrongBlackMan]

51. See Post #50 ... I think this may exlain the age gap. eom

[FrenchieCat]

31. Oh....Sanders may carry some of the young Black voters certainly....

especially the ones in college,
as they are very similar in their upbringing
to young White Voters,
some who don't quite totally get yet how our government doesn't work,
with a frame of reference where some might only remember that Bush was an asshole,
and its' been pretty good in the era of Obama. They think...Obama had no problem winning,
so why should this guy?

Some haven't gotten to the part where they ain't really gonna get free college,
free healthcare,
a big minimum wage, etc....
anytime soon.....

But they, just like the White youth counterparts loooove what Sanders is promising...no doubt!

[sahel]

45. Thank God liberals in other countries have more backbone than we have

or single payer would never have gotten off the ground anywhere.

Some haven't gotten to the part where they ain't really gonna get free college,
free healthcare

The US government is already spending at least two-thirds of what it would need to spend to provide universal health coverage. Right now you have a whole raft of schemes.. Medicare, Medicaid, Tricare, VA, S-CHIP, etc etc. It would be more efficient to have one.

Currently, the government pays for the healthcare of the most expensive people to insure - the poor, the old, veterans and children. Pound for pound, the cost of insuring the other sectors of the population is fairly modest.

[FrenchieCat]

49. National healthcare in other countries

Came about incrementally, and not in one fell swoop. The same can be said about Social Security that we have today. We are a country of 300 million people, not 50 million, or 12 million, etc. etc. etc.…

That's what the ACA was, a start. To propose to basically gut it and have it replaced with something else all of a sudden considering that even the fight to keep the ACA is really not even over. That doesn't even compute.

The False Lure of the Sanders Single-Payer Plan
http://prospect.org/article/false-lure-sanders-single-payer-plan

[sahel]

55. Completely false

The NHS in the UK came about in one fell swoop. Admittedly Medicare in Canada started in Saskatchewan before being adopted federally but in Australia, New Zealand, etc it came about because liberal politicians in those countries were not as worthless and cowardly as ours.

Remember, until teddy Kennedy died the dems had a filibuster proof majority in the senate. The democrats could have passed any agenda item that they liked. They passed virtually nothing in that time. You can bet your arse the republicans wouldn't have passed up an opportunity like that.

[FrenchieCat]

58. No...not false at all....

The UK NHS came about in 1948, after world war II, and after England had been bombed and survived war. Since then, many tweaks have been made to it, from 1984 onwards. current population of England is 53 million
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_National_Health_Service_(England)


New Zealand, with a current population of around 4 million, was one of the first countries in the world to provide universal health care. Under the Social Security Act of 1938, the government began funding hospitals, although medical and pharmaceutical benefits were not fully effective until 1941.... (In contrast, Germany, France and Japan guarantee universal health care but employ “mixed” systems relying more on non-governmental funding sources, primarily employers and individual patients). 1
http://www.pnhp.org/news/2003/january/the_new_zealand_heal.php

Democrats have always had a big tent....and one of the reasons they had majorities in years gone by was that many of the ones from the South considered themselves as "Dixiecrats".....most since have died out or have since become Republicans.

The reason that we are unable to regain majorities in the House, apart from the gerrymandering, is precisely because there are fewer moderate Democrats in the house, as most have been replaced with Republicans. The only way to take back the House would be to have voters choose to vote for Moderate Democrats rather than Republicans in conservative areas, but the purists don't want moderate center Democrats in the party anymore.....which leaves us with Congress that is majority Republican.

[sahel]

68. And this is the annoying thing about internet debate

the stubborn, about-faced refusal to acknowledge error.

The UK NHS came about in 1948, after world war II, and after England had been bombed and survived war.

Yes. In one fell swoop, contrary to your earlier assertion. The conservatives started chipping away at it during the Margaret Thatcher years, but that doesnt do anything to prove your point.

New Zealand, with a current population of around 4 million, was one of the first countries in the world to provide universal health care.

Again in one fell swoop. It took three years to phase it in, of course, but there's nothing particularly incremental about that. Obamacare took just as long to introduce.

The reason that we are unable to regain majorities in the House

That would be true, most of the time, but not now.

Most of the pundits expected Sanders to sink like a stone. I certainly did. I expected Sanders to do about as well as Denis Kucinich did in years past. I was wrong.

It appears that the people, or at least some of them, are in an insurrectionist mood. It seems that way over in the Republican camp as well. The voters keep refusing to accept the establishment candidates that the GOP elders are unsubtly shoving down their throats.

We see this in Greece, where the contest is between the socialists (Syriza) and the fascists (Golden Dawn). The stand-for-nothing establishment politicians have been shoved to the side there. There is nothing new about any of this, of course. The voters in 1930s Germany were faced with the same contest. I made a post about this once:-

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10027375129

Eventually this will come to pass here. If not in this political cycle, then in the next. The choice will be between Sanders (or someone like him) or Trump (or someone like him).

I accept that Black voters, at this point in time, seem relatively more content to support the establishment candidate. Perhaps this is because Black voters have been treated like crap for so long that they are inured to it, whereas whites are still relatively new to the experience. But there are also logistical reasons for this that I have alluded to before:-

A century ago, Irish Catholics were the keystone of the Democratic party base. They voted 85%-90% Democratic, year in year out, at a time when AAs were still voting for the Republicans.

Of course you don't get that level of support in a vacuum. An Irish Catholic going to church would listen to the priest telling him to vote the straight ticket (ie, for the establishment Democratic candidate). There would be vague allusions to the Republicans being a nest of nativists and anti-Catholic Freemasons, and equally warnings against supporting the godless Communists on the left.

He would work in a city job, or at least a union job. The union rep would visit the boys from time to time and tell them to vote the straight ticket, amongst other things. Even when he knocked off work for the day, the saloon or speakeasy that he frequented for a beer or two would have posters extolling the establishment Dem candidate, since a lot of the saloons were actually owned by city bosses.

Of course you had Democratic party operatives on the ground as well. Then you had fraternal Irish organisations, city machines like Tammany Hall, friends and family who worked for these various entities, all instilling in you the importance of voting the straight ticket. If you were illiterate, the newspapers helpfully printed out a ballot sheet showing you just how to vote the straight ticket, and you could take that to the polling booth.

Was it any great surprise, then, that Irish Catholics went to the polls and voted the straight ticket in the numbers that they did?

[Chitown Kev]

71. Take this veiled "Stockholm Syndrome" BS somewhere else

Perhaps this is because Black voters have been treated like crap for so long that they are inured to it, whereas whites are still relatively new to the experience.

Black people know what presidential candidates say and we know what elected presidents (and other public officials) do in office.

Bernie Sanders will not be an exception to that. Hell, he's not even an exception to it now, if one looks at his record

And people know how I feel about this, if Bernie is serious about the revolution, then I would appreciate it more if he brung the serious shit as opposed to this milquetoast shit.

[sahel]

73. Veiled?

Ive never been accused of being veiled before. I am generally exceptionally blunt.

Perhaps this is because Black voters have been treated like crap for so long that they are inured to it, whereas whites are still relatively new to the experience.

This was a reference to the J-curve:-

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Chowning_Davies

James Chowning Davies (May 6, 1918 – March 30, 2012) was an American sociologist and professor emeritus of political science at the University of Oregon. Davies is perhaps best known for his so-called "J curve" theory of political revolutions, which seeks to explain the rise of revolutionary movements in terms of rising individual expectations and falling levels of perceived well-being.

Political revolutions rarely start with the most immiserated section of a population, although they generally get swept up in it eventually. They generally start when people who are accustomed to having it relatively good suddenly find their fortunes have precipitously reversed.

In this category I would put young, tertiary educated whites (who a generation ago would have been assured of a broadly comfortable and prosperous existence) as well as some sections of the skilled working class.

Black people know what presidential candidates say and we know what elected presidents (and other public officials) do in office.

Agreed. Black people tend to have a fatalistic view of elected officials (which is admittedly almost always borne out). This probably feeds back into what I said above. Again, it probably explains why Black people are generally content to support the establishment candidate (better the devil you know), while the whites on both sides, or at least some of them, are agitating for something else.

Consequently, if some sort of revolution does start (and we are obviously not there yet and may never get there anyway), it will probably start with the disaffected whites.

Bernie Sanders will not be an exception to that.

And neither was Obama. Hope and change, anyone? As I said, we are not there yet, and may never get there.

[Chitown Kev]

75. Please.

it will probably start with the disaffected whites.

And black folks always wind up on the front lines, regardless and that goes back to Crispus Atticus.

This is (still) a majority white country. This country rarely has given a good goddamn when black people get "disaffected", so NOW white folks want to get (rightfully, IMO) "disaffected" and black folks are supposed to say "right on" and "power to the people" instead of throwing sideeye?

Please take that batshit commentary and ratonalization somewhere else.

[sahel]

77. "it will probably start with the disaffected whites"

This is (still) a majority white country.

True.

This country rarely has given a good goddamn when black people get "disaffected",

True. And even when they do its self-limiting. Even if every black person was on side you've still only got 13% of the population.

black folks are supposed to say "right on" and "power to the people" instead of throwing sideeye?

That part I don't know. If what you are saying is correct, then if and when the whites get seriously disaffected, Black people are simply irrelevant. I don't think thats true. But to a certain extent, yes, this is still a majority white country.

Incidentally, what do you think that the whites should do? Vote for Hillary and hope for the best?

The real failing of Sanders, as I think I indicated before, is not that he has failed to make inroads into Black voters (which were never really up for grabs), but that he has failed to make inroads into non-union, working class whites.

Please take that batshit commentary and ratonalization somewhere else.

Well, that part's easy. You simply stop replying to me and I stop replying to you.

But given your feelings on the matter, Im happy to leave it there. Bye.

[Chitown Kev]

78. Last reponse from me

Incidentally, what do you think that the whites should do? Vote for Hillary and hope for the best?

Whites can do whatever it is that they want to do but whites will never suffer from the consequences of a Republican Administration like black people.

Whites simply don't have as much to lose...and I think that you have read enough of the commentary here to know that, for the most part, blacks (at least here at DU) ain't feeling Hillary too tough, for the most part.

The real failing of Sanders, as I think I indicated before, is not that he has failed to make inroads into Black voters (which were never really up for grabs), but that he has failed to make inroads into non-union, working class whites.

I disagree with this...Sanders was never going to make a lot of inroads with the non-union Archie Bunker types (Donald Trump voters, in other words...and Sanders has made a play for that vote already)

He is capable of making inroads with black (and other POC) youth

[JustAnotherGen]

87. Chi - Back away - this is JAG

Nothing good comes from low post count folks who come in here.

i will ask him to depart

[Chitown Kev]

91. Thank you

[Number23]

100. Nothing good comes from alot of HIGH post count folks that have been straggling in here lately

either.

[Empowerer]

72. Black voters are inured to being treated like crap while white voters won't tolerate such treatment?

Are you serious? Do you have any idea what you are saying?

You're essentially saying that black voters are complacent wimps but white voters are fighters.

Please take this racist - yes, I said racist - crap somewhere else. You're trying to peddle this BS to a group of highly intelligent people who know better.

[sahel]

74. Or maybe the whites are the wimps?

and maybe the new urban white precariat will have to suck it up in the same way that Black people have had to do for centuries. To be honest at this point in time I still think that is probably the most likely outcome.

Obviously Black people had no choice in the matter. Its a bit like accusing the Jews of excessive docility for walking calmly into Hitler's gas chambers. What else could they do in the circumstances?

[1StrongBlackMan]

76. Didn't you know? Black folks are super-human and don't feel pain like white folks!

[Empowerer]

79. Oh, we feel pain - we're just docile . . .

[Recursion]

84. Just to be clear: you're actually explicitly telling black voters what black voters feel?

I mean, you're not even beating around the bush there, you're just saying it straight up?

I mean... props, I guess?

[sahel]

85. I am speculating

by all means, feel free to take issue with whatever you like. I'm not telling anyone what they do or should feel.

[Recursion]

86. No, no, those statements were in fact in the indicative mood

I may not know much, but language and computer networks I do kind of know. You stated. In a protected group for people of color (strictly, for African-Americans, though this kind of seems to be a home base for all people of color). You stated how black voters feel. I did actually study language, and I read what you wrote.

[JustAnotherGen]

88. Group Host - I'm asking politely

Please trash the thread and back away from the group.


I've received 4 private messages from regular group members and they are concerned.

We don't just (contrary to popular belief) block people at will - so I won't do that.



I'm asking you to respect the group and back away.


The people that PM'd me have not responded to you on this thread - so it is not them.

[Number23]

104. I second JAG's request for you to not return to this forum.

Thanks.

[JustAnotherGen]

106. Thanks n/t

[sahel]

35. Why would it matter?

Listen, from an electoral perspective there is no difference between losing amongst old people and losing amongst AAs. A lost vote is still a lost vote.

Obama lost handily to Clinton throughout the primary campaign in 2008 amongst Latino voters. This didn't mean that Latino people hated him or that Obama was racist against Latinos. It simply reflected the fact that Clinton was the establishment candidate and that the Democratic Party machines involved in mobilizing Latinos predominantly supported her. Of course once Obama was the candidate those same machines duly swung behind him and delivered him 75% of the Latino vote.

Polling numbers are not arguments of moral agency. Just because sanders does badly with AAs does not mean that he's a bad person. No insurgent candidate, apart from Obama and Jesse Jackson has ever put a serious dent in AA support for the establishment candidate, no matter how principled an anti racist they were or are. After all OMalley was something of a favorite of this particular sub forum and his polling numbers amongst AAs were always woeful. What it does mean is that he should do everything to try and contain the damage, the same as Obama did when he at least tried to chip away Clinton's advantage with Latinos.

a win is a win. Obama won without Latinos but it was still a win. If sanders wins without the support of a majority of AAs it will still be a win. Realistically I don't think that sanders, or any other white insurgent candidate, could increase AA support dramatically from the levels that we are currently seeing. It was always the case that sanders, if he was to win nationally, would need non Union working class voters that currently vote republican to vote for him instead. That remains the case.

[1StrongBlackMan]

50. It has dawned on me ...

Bernie lost/loses big with groups/segments of the population that have/had ...actually, experienced/lived a revolutionary movement, and therefore are unable to romanticize what was, or could be.

[Chitown Kev]

64. Yep.

I'd probably be a little more for bernie if I didn't think that all of his revolution talk was simply bullshit

[1StrongBlackMan]

65. LOL ... Well,there is that! ...

I'm old enough to remember, the formula is: Resist ... vote ... Fight ... (unfortunately) die ... keep resisting ... Keep voting ... keep fighting ... CHANGE ... keep resisting ... keep voting ... keep fighting ...

Not, elect someone ... magic ... problem solved.

[1StrongBlackMan]

67. BTW ... I heard an interview with an twenty-some Egyptian guy...

who was part of Arab Spring.

He said (something to the effect), "We were so naïve ... we thought once we revolted and toppled the government, we were done. Revolutions take generations."

I think that is the generational divide, we are seeing here.

[sahel]

69. You mean like his father's extended family

who were rounded up by the fascists and burned in ovens? That seemed like a fairly revolutionary moment to me. Probably more revolutionary than anything ever experienced by Hillary Clinton's extended family, anyway.

It struck me the other day that Clinton is probably the only WASP presidential candidate in either the Republican or Democratic camps. Go through the list if you don't believe me. Trump's German, Sanders is Jewish, O'Malley Catholic, Carson Black, Cruz and Rubio Latino etc etc. Even Jeb converted to Catholicism so he probably doesnt count any more.

As a member of the great American waspocracy myself, it does warm the cockles to see a good old fashioned white Waspy Methodist like Clinton get an easy ride to the big house. Here's hoping, eh?

[JustAnotherGen]

89. Please back away from the Group

Full STOP.

Thanks.

[brer cat]

82. nailed it, 1SBM! nt

[HassleCat]

53. Pretty much, yes

Black voters are comfortable with Clinton, and not so much with Sanders. That's just the way it is. Demanding a rational explanation does not work because voting is not rational. If it were, the Republicans would get about 20 percent in any election. Voting is emotional, and Clinton is emotionally connected with black voters, and Sanders is not, and probably never will be to any great extent.

[Number23]

61. There is a lot of truth in this post.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

56. Coming off from a temporary ban because I dared to assert how arrogant Sanders' fans are...

...this just proves to me how disconnected the candidate and his cheerleaders are.

I was around in 2007-2008 during the nasty Obama-Hillary primaries. And though I found many Hillary supporters abusive and downright incredulous, I've never seen anything like these Sanders' supporters. Never.

You guys know that I can't stand HRC. I loathe the Clintons with a hot passion.

However, she's coming across as more attractive compared to Sanders and his ban of delusional fanatics.

Thank you so much for sending this.

I love Charles Blow. He hit the proverbial nail on the head for sure.

[Number23]

62. I've never seen anything like them either. And you are at least the 4th black Sanders supporter

I've seen here that has said his behavior and that of his supporters has become such a huge turn off that you're having trouble supporting him now. I saw Blue_Tires, another black Sanders supporter, respond to the 497th "black people just aren't informed enough to know about Sanders" comment that it was shit like that that was actually starting to make him take another look at Hillary.

So if the 6 bajillion articles that have been written about how detrimental the behavior of too many Sanders supporters has been to his candidacy hasn't sunk in by now, I think it's pretty safe to assume that it's not going to. And astonishingly, he actually seems to be egging them on and fundraising off of this crap.

What are you going to do? I know you can't stand Clinton either. Are you going to just support whoever is on the Dem nominee like so many others are doing??

[Recursion]

81. ^^^ I wish the Sanders Brigade would read *THIS POST RIGHT HERE*

#62. If you're reading this post, stop reading it and read the post above it.

[brer cat]

83. The arrogrance is astounding.

You know they have also been trashing baby boomers. What a winning strategy: let's do this without AAs or those doddering old folks who hardly ever vote anyway!! Yay, young white people: we are pure, and idealism always wins!!! We can call it a "revolution"...nobody ever thought of that before!!!

[sheshe2]

110. Good post, brer cat.

[DCBob]

102. I think many feel that Bernie doesn't really care that much about issues affecting African Americans

He seems too obsessed with economics like that is a cure-all for all that's wrong with the country.

[uponit7771]

107. Did most DU AAs vote in IA primary!?!? It's like they said everything we said for the last 6 months

[Number23]

109. But according to conventional DU "wisdom," we don't know/understand/represent our OWN DAMN

COMMUNITIES because we have the nerve to get a bit of edumacation and ain't living solely off collard greens in the ghetto.

These folks around here are a fucking TRIP. And as clueless as they are (thanfully!!!) unrepresentative of the Democratic Party.