Scalia: 'Most black scientists in the U.S.' benefit from not being admitted into top programs

[Digital Puppy]

During Supreme Court hearing on affirmative action, Justice Scalia claims that 'most black scientists in the U.S.' benefit from not being admitted into top programs

During oral arguments in a critical case about affirmative action Wednesday, Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia suggested that "most black scientists in the U.S." benefit from not being admitted into top-tier programs.

"They're being pushed into schools that are too advanced for them," Scalia said of African-American students accepted under affirmative action programs.

"Most of the black scientists in this country do not come from the most advanced schools," Scalia, a noted opponent of affirmative action said, according to reporters present for the case.

Scalia added that many such African-American scientists actually benefitted from a "slower track."

"It does not benefit African-Americans" who don't succeed academically in schools that accepted them under affirmative action policies, he reportedly said.

[Snip]

So much stupidity from a Supreme Court Justice...

AA do better at "lesser colleges"?? Really? I guess the best thing to do is roll back time to pre-Brown versus Board of Education and make everything separate but equal!

Full article here: http://nydn.us/1HUUCri

[Recursion]

1. Neil Degrasse Tyson went to UT Austin, I think

RBG makes the excellent point that the only research institutions with enrollment parity are HBCUs...

[Manifestor_of_Light]

2. Yep, got his Master's degreee at UT-Austin.

[KT2000]

3. the is outrageous

can't we impeach him?
And what did Thomas do when he said this because he was essentially saying that African Americans are not smart enough for the better colleges.

[Moliere]

5. Haha, CT didn't do anything

Why would he when he self identifies as Caucasian?

[Depaysement]

4. There's a college in Massachusetts

The first African-American graduated in 1892.

The college is the Massachusetts Institue of Technology. Have you heard of it, Justice Scalia?

[Starry Messenger]

6. I cannot wait to read his obituary.

I wonder what this Harvard grad would say about that crap:

[1StrongBlackMan]

7. Why is the number of scientists even relevant? ...

This case is about entry into an under-grad program ... and I'm pretty sure, UT has more than science studies.

Scalia should be a legal pariah and the subject of some really bad words.

[The Polack MSgt]

8. Fat Tony Scalia

Is a paid shill. An Opus Dei cultist and reliable rubber stamp for any and all John Birch Society racist nonsense and he has been from the 1st moment he put on that black robe.

Hate is corrosive and I am generally opposed to trivializing it by constantly saying I hate this or that or them.

But I fucking hate Fat Tony so hard my eyes cross when I think of that slimy toad of a man.

[3catwoman3]

51. The presumptive neck size that his shirt collars...

...must be to fit around his corpulent neck suggest that his heart attack is LONG overdue.

[ismnotwasm]

9. Saw this on Facebook

It reminds me of "The Bell Curve" nonsense. It also makes me sick.

[Kind of Blue]

10. I should have known it was the Abigail Fisher case.

God, this turns my stomach. Once again nothing but beliefs!

Fisher fails to mention that 5 PoC and 42 white students had lower test scores got in the same year she applied, but no mention of the 42 white applicants. Or even the 168 PoC students denied entry that year who had grades as good or better than hers, nor that she was offered and turned down a standard UT offer allowing her, if she got a 3.2 GPA, at another Texas university school in her freshman year. http://www.propublica.org/article/a-colorblind-constitution-what-abigail-fishers-affirmative-action-case-is-r


"What unique perspective does a minority student bring to a physics class?" Chief Justice John Roberts asked at one point, challenging a part of Texas' argument that says their program is needed to increase diversity at the classroom level."

What unique perspective would a student like Fisher bring who failed to enter on academic merit alone though her demographic is one of the largest at the school?

[JustAnotherGen]

11. Thanks - I was going to post that

Abigail Fisher just wasn't competitive enough.

There's a certain point where if you aren't good enough and you keep getting 'ushered' along you will encounter people who actually deserve to be in certain places - and who will throw every elbow they can at you until you give in and leave.

The university did Abby a favor but she really just wants what? The bmw and the corporate job? And to not have to earn it?

[brer cat]

13. She needed an excuse.

She won't accept that it was her deficiency so she maintains that the system is unfair...some "undeserving" person of color took her place.

[Kind of Blue]

42. "What defiency," asks the unreflecting Fisher in my...

imaginary Fisher's voice and from the article, "I hail from a wealthy suburb of Houston called Sugar Land, that I was deprived of my rightful admission at UT Austin because, in my view, some person of color who didn’t deserve it stole it from me." Besides, in other reports, my family has a long tradition of attending UT Austin and some underserving PoC ripped our heritage from us - oh, the inhumanity.

"Throughout her now seven-year campaign to make the school pay for not letting her in, Fisher has never been able to produce any evidence that the school tossed her application to make room for a less qualified minority applicant. That’s because, as UT Austin has maintained throughout this ordeal, Fisher was never getting in to their school. Fisher’s GPA and SAT scores weren’t high enough, and she didn’t have enough external accomplishments to convince the school to give her a shot otherwise.

Fisher’s case only makes sense if you assume that people of color are inherently less worthy than white people. How else do you justify an argument that assumes that every white person should have been given a shot before minority students do?"

http://www.salon.com/2015/12/09/abigail_fisher_deserves_an_f_for_her_race_baiting_supreme_court_case_aimed_at_boosting_subpar_white_students/

[Kind of Blue]

41. Stuff we already know and stuff said better than I could

and agrees with you, as I do!

"Instead of telling her where to shove it, the Supreme Court sent Fisher’s case back to the appeals court. Now she and her lawyers are back again. This time, they’ve tweaked their argument a bit, trying to argue that diversity itself is an illegitimate goal for schools and, to add a bit of extra nastiness sauce to it, they’re claiming that diversity is bad for students of color.

In other words, Fisher and her lawyers are concern-trolling the Supreme Court.

Most of UT Austin’s admissions are on the basis of high school class standing — about 80 percent of its class in the year that Fisher applied. But the other 20 percent are determined in a holistic fashion, by looking at grades, extracurricular activities, test scores, writing samples, the usual stuff. Because of the school’s commitment to diversity, race and class background is also taken into consideration. Someone who shows potential but faced some obstacles gets a closer look than someone who hasn’t had similar obstacles.

When you read about this case, it quickly becomes self-evident why the admissions committee didn’t think Fisher had some hidden potential that wasn’t reflected in her grades. Fisher, however, has decided her unparalleled genius is going unnoticed because of the notorious racism against white people. But since that argument hasn’t gotten her very far, her lawyer, Edward Blum, is now trying a different tactic to argue that schools should admit mediocre white people over talented students of color: His claim is that giving students of color an opportunity somehow hurts them."

http://www.salon.com/2015/12/09/abigail_fisher_deserves_an_f_for_her_race_baiting_supreme_court_case_aimed_at_boosting_subpar_white_students/

[1StrongBlackMan]

12. I posted the same thing when the case went before ..

The SC 2 years ago.

You'd be surprised how many DUERS didn't want to here it. Some even argued that affirmative action is no longer necessary.

[Number23]

16. White denial is an incredibly potent force. And it is taught to people every bit as much as

reading, writing and 'rithmetic.

I remember when I was in grad school taking a course on cyber-security. The professor admitted his undergraduate students to the class that day and I was the only black face in that room. The shit those people spouted off, I was like this every eight minutes

This was one of the top private universities in the country. These kids had money falling out of their asses, had been to the snobbiest private schools their entire lives and they were DUMB AS FUCKING ROCKS. The topic somehow went to America's history and they were commenting that dealing with the public was the best way to deal with an issue because the people were the best way to deal with something (I can't remember what the issue was) and I commented that "yeah, the people! If it was up to "the people" we'd probably still have slavery!" You could have heard a damn pin drop. I still remember the stammering and sputtering to this day.

[1StrongBlackMan]

20. Yeah ... I know ...

I was surrounded by these know-it-all-kins in, both, Law School and grad-school. As one of the few Black folks, and generally, one of the older students, not a single day went by without me wanting to say, "Shhhh. Just hush the f@$# up!"

I remember in a Criminal Procedure course, the Professor laid out a fact pattern involving a search of a vehicle driven by the student. All the white students declared they would not consent to the search under any circumstance. (Even though the fact pattern indicated the student was clean.)

I, and the other Black student, laughed out loud. The Professor, a prominent Defense Attorney, asked me my thoughts ... "after all, citizens have an absolute right to not consent to a search of their vehicle."

I said, "that is true; but, then you get arrested and they search your vehicle, anyway. My aim is to avoid being arrested, as it is an employment disqualifier, in many job recruitments."

The Professor conceded that, "the rules for the exercise of a right, are different for some."

That Professor turned out to be my favorite L-school Prof and helped me get my first post-law school job.

[Number23]

23. That is an awesome example, 1SBM of the many differences that we face

The Constitution and citizen rights ain't no kind of protection from a boot in the face.

And yeah, it would be great to have this whole pie in the sky "everyone is equal" belief but we know better. We've had no choice BUT to know better.

[1StrongBlackMan]

27. And those who thought they knew better ...

We're shown differently.

I had a white co-worker that always told me how he would back talk and resist L/E, if he was Black and confronted.

I would tell him he had the luxury of that fantasy.

[Kind of Blue]

45. I.Love.This.Story!

Last edited Thu Dec 10, 2015, 11:33 PM - Edit history (1)

"The shit those people spouted off" And I bet there's not many of us who don't have one or several stories exactly like yours. We could probably write a handbook of what you might expect and how to deal with it.

[Number23]

50. Oh my goodness, one of the many, MANY things I love about this forum is the shared experiences

so many of us have.

It doesn't matter what our field. It doesn't matter even what our level of education is. I have seen so many stories here about the issues with being black or even being black and female in Corporate America that make me go "oh my GOD! this SAME SHIT has happened to me!!!!!"

It is scary. And incredibly uplifting all that same time.

[Kind of Blue]

53. "It is scary. And incredibly uplifting all that same time."

Oh yes, SSDD. But so happy to see black UT-Austin female graduates actually celebrating themselves. That flavor extends to all of us and literally changed my mood about the whole thing.

[Kind of Blue]

43. I don't think anything will surprise me about the number

of DUers who didn't want to hear it. Economically, she's well-heeled so there's no good reason why she shouldn't have gotten in

[1StrongBlackMan]

14. "What unique perspective would a minority bring to ...

A physics class?"

How about showing the non-minority students (and the instructor, as well) that there really are "minorities" in this world ... and some of us are actually smart!

[Digital Puppy]

15. ^^^ This right there! ^^^

I know I make my work place diverse by just showing up. I also know that after people look at me it takes them a bit to get past the 6'6", bald-headed, black guy and actually listen to the things I am saying. I use that to my advantage to teach and get things done at work. For many of my students, I know that I'm the only Black professor they have, I'm certainly the only Black physics professor they will probably have in their life. I feel no pressure from this, but think that its a great way and opportunity to expose others to what POC can do.

For my students/co-workers/peers, KNOWING that there are Black professors/scientists/engineers in the world is not a myth or a story, but a reality. For those who have never met a Black doctor, or Black professional, etc. there might be doubt that a POC could actually do a particular job or that it only happens in prime-time (fantasy) or as the result of a LESSER institution....

[Number23]

17. "Black physics professor"

Oh, I am in love. Deeply, TRULY in love!!!!

For my students/co-workers/peers, KNOWING that there are Black professors/scientists/engineers in the world is not a myth or a story, but a reality. For those who have never met a Black doctor, or Black professional, etc. there might be doubt that a POC could actually do a particular job or that it only happens in prime-time (fantasy) or as the result of a LESSER institution....

You should read the Graphic Examples of a racially based caste system thread that's pinned to the top of this forum. It was started almost ten years ago by another exquisite brother, BrewmanJaxx, when he posted a story from a black doctor that talked about this very thing. It was called "My black skin makes my white coat disappear" and it is one hell of a read.

[Digital Puppy]

18. Thank you so much!!! Not sure my students feel that way right now since it's exam week!! :)

(I tried to read that story but the link is broken/old. Let me know if you have a different link, I would LOVE to read and forward!)

I know I'm not a high-volume poster, but I read everything that come through this forum and really couldn't contain my outrage at the direction the SC is going on an this issue. I will have to agree with Rev. Sharpton, it sounded like a Trump or KKK rally.

[Number23]

19. Yep, the link in the actual OP is broken but I'm pretty sure that kwassa found a more recent one

and posted it down the thread. Edit: Actually it was MADem who found it! He posted the link in the thread.

The SC has been particularly outrageous lately. First the attack on Voting Rights and now they are setting the stage to eliminate or dramatically change affirmative action. We'd better be ready.

[Digital Puppy]

56. I need to thank you....THANK YOU!!!

I just finished reading that article and I really felt a connection to what she wrote and to her experiences. Even though it's sad, I still feel we have a responsibility to 'keep on, keeping on" and try to educate as many people with our presence (and our successes) as possible.

I remember in college, my coach would tell us that when we represent more than ourselves to the rest of the world....we represent the institution, the team, our family, and our race. Is that too much for a 18-21 year old? If I were white would I feel that responsibility? Would I have received that message if I would have gone to a predominantly white institution?

I think the answers are obvious. My students are mostly POC, and most of them are Latino. I tell them the same things that were ingrained in me: Don't think people will just respect and like you because you have a degree...you need to earn respect and work against the stereotype - whichever stereotype - that you encounter.

I think when anyone reads Scalia's comments, you don't need an interpreter to figure out he is saying that Blacks have inferior intelligence and anything that isn't an "Harvard-Type" school is lesser....in fact, he probably censored himself because it widely known that HBCUs are responsible for at least 35% of Black STEM Ph.D's...and with this logic, HBCUs are "less rigorous" or "easier" for Blacks...

*sigh*

[Number23]

57. I'd love for you to write about the challenges you face dealing with your students

You don't have to give any specific info but you seem like such a dedicated and passionate brother, I'd love to know what you're doing to inspire that same dedication and passion in your students. And there are so damn many smart people in this forum and even some of your fellow teachers here.

I don't know if I agree with what you said about "working against the stereotype" because one thing I've learned is that bigoted people are going to hate you regardless so why spend one second worrying about them?? But I also know that your students are so lucky to have you, Puppy.

[Digital Puppy]

58. Thanks, 23...and you are right regarding bigoted peeps...

As I re-read what I wrote above, I guess I'm not trying to worry about the bigoted folks, but the ignorant ones. The ones who have never been around a PoC and assume one thing because of what they saw on TV or heard on the streets. I'm talking about a PoC in the work place not having the same benefit of the doubts that their white (or male) counterparts would get.

It's really not something that I think about doing for/to my class, but i guess I've been attempting to be an antithesis of a stereotype for so long, it comes out when I engage my class or team at work. You probably have me pegged though and I might be spending too much time worrying about it!

Like I said in different thread, I'm trying to be a bit more active here in DU:AA and with finals over and my grades turned in (hallelujah!!) I have time to get out of lurk mode. You guys are very inspiring in your knowledge and perspective...I also love how you handle stupidity and ignorance. I know it's something that I have to work on!

[1StrongBlackMan]

21. 6'6", bald, Black and educated ...

Damn, Son ... your existence threatens a bunch of folks ... before you even open your mouth.

[Number23]

24. Threatens some...

6'6", bald, Black and educated ...

Damn, Son ... your existence threatens a bunch of folks ... before you even open your mouth.

Titillates others...

[1StrongBlackMan]

25. Behave!!!!

[Number23]

26. Man, I'm TRYING! I am really, REALLY trying!!!

[1StrongBlackMan]

28. Well ...

I'm Black, bald and really, really educated; but, only 5'9" ... can a brother get some love?

[Number23]

29. Always!!

[1StrongBlackMan]

30. LOL. Where's the " aw, shucks" gif?

[Number23]

31. I like this one

[1StrongBlackMan]

33. Perfect ... if only I had a brown crayon. n/t

[Number23]

34. You... RACCISSSTT!

[1StrongBlackMan]

38. LOL ... Yes, I know. n/t

[Digital Puppy]

35. See!!! Getting me into trouble!!

I can't even let Mrs. Pup read this thread now!!

[1StrongBlackMan]

39. Just tell her you're safe ...

Number23 is married and half a world away!

[Number23]

49. For real! And for God's sake PLEASE don't let Mr. 23 come up in here!!!!

[randys1]

32. You are a physics professor?

Wanna know where I have learned more about physics than anywhere else?



http://www.cbs.com/shows/big_bang_theory/video/30F00889-61EE-2779-8136-EEC85955916C/the-big-bang-theory-the-mystery-date-observation/


I look up the stuff they mention in each episode.

I have a friend in show business and he got me tix to see a taping. I use CC when I watch it at home so I can see the spelling of the different stuff they mention....so I can look it up.

Kind of embarrassing to admit, but it works.

[Digital Puppy]

36. Hey, whatever works!!

One of the hardest parts of teaching is getting people to let go of the "Math/Science/Physics/etc. is too hard!!" "I'm no good at Math/Science/etc." "I had a bad experience in JH/HS/Col...so I know I'm no good at this...." Bleh!

I start many lectures out with things I call, "Topic Starters" that are video clips or examples that come from movies, TV, or pop culture. Students can understand - or at least view - the concepts which make them more comfortable with the material. It really makes teaching a sometimes tricky subject a lot easier. By the end of the term, students have a bunch of examples that they can call on.

So IMO, there is nothing at all to be embarrassed about! Using BBT (or Star Wars, or examples from Sports, etc) is the same sort of thing. The students connect to it better than just reading a dry boring textbook.

When I first started teaching at the CalState that I'm at years ago, I kept getting called to the Dean's office since my drop rate was much lower than other sections of the same subject. "You have 95% of the students taking the final where other sections only have 45%!" They must have thought I was giving away grades!!!

[randys1]

37. I find you people to be special, unique and I am very curious what is in your

brains.

Seriously.

The older I get the more I appreciate just how little I know and how much I am curious about what I dont know.

[Kind of Blue]

44. Gawd, having you as a professor in any capacity

would have shaved years of my fears of being dumb in math, because I totally agree that Topic Starters go a long, long way.

I knew that my math was horrible - I'm female and black so, you know, I've got 2 genes working against me that are inherently inferior Knowing this, I gathered every math book I could of my sister's, 16 years younger than me, beginning with 4th grade and studied knowing I'd probably never understand.

The HUGH shift came when in an elemenatary grade book, the chapters began with famous mathematicians. Lo! one of them was al Jabr, a Moor, who invented algebra and the etching/sketch was clearly of a black man. My God, I felt like I left my body in pure elation. There was no mistaking the connection between he and I. I aced thru physics I & II like nobody's business just because I knew of one black face saying I did this and so can you.

[Kind of Blue]

47. #StayMadAbby

"The facts of Abigail's case are dubious, and UT grads are clapping back epically with the #staymadabby.

If you're Black and any kind of exceptional, you've had someone question your accomplishments. Don't fall into the trap of defending yourself from people who refuse to acknowledge your greatness. That's the beauty of #staymadabby."

Cool


http://theculture.forharriet.com/2015/12/staymadabby-black-girls-are-clapping.html#axzz3tykPowxi

[zigby]

22. What a vile piece of rancid roadkill that man is

He makes my blood boil.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

40. Neil deGrasse Tyson said adults walked off when he said he wanted to be an astrophysicist.

Because he was big and AA he was assumed to be a jock, and that would be the career for him. He was on wrestling teams in high school and college, so he was a jock part of the time.
When he was nine he went to the Hayden Planetarium and decided he wanted to be an astrophysicist. The adults would just walk away because it wasn't appropriate.


Quote from his Ph.D. Convocation Speech at Columbia University in 1991:

"In high school, nobody asked further about how I became captain of the wrestling team. But when I became Editor-in-Chief of my school's annual Physical Science Journal, my qualifications were constantly queried. And when I was accepted to the college of my choice, I was continually asked for my SAT scores and grade point average. Indeed, one fellow student threatened to break into the school records to read my scores if I didn't tell.


When I first entered graduate school, (in an institution far from Columbia), I was eager to pursue my dreams of research astrophysics. But the first comment directed to me in the first minute of the first day by a faculty member who I had just met was, "You must join our department basketball team." As the months and years passed, faculty and fellow students would suggest alternative careers for me thinking that they were doing me a favor,

"Why don't you become a computer salesman?"

"Why don't you teach at a community college?"

"Why don't you leave astrophysics and academia? You can make much money in industry."

At no time was I perceived as a future colleague, though this privilege was enjoyed by other graduate students."

Read the whole thing here:
http://www.haydenplanetarium.org/tyson/read/1991/05/14/phd-convocation-address

It is truly inspiring. My husband and I met Dr. Tyson after a fundraiser he spoke at for my husband's alma mater.

He printed out a picture of Dr. Tyson standing in front of the planetary models at the Hayden Planetarium and put the last paragraph of the address on it in Photoshop: "it is remarkable what can be accomplished when you are surrounded by people who believe in you; people whose expectations are not set by the short-sighted attitudes of society—people who help to open doors of opportunity, not close them."

Dr. Tyson autographed it, we framed it, and it's up on our wall because we remember how many discouraging teachers we had, and how we didn't have enough encouraging teachers.

Everybody needs encouraging teachers.

[Digital Puppy]

46. Amen to that!

Thanks for sharing that story and the link. (I put together a bunch of different resources and links for the students in my class to give them at the end of the year - basically all the stuff I wanted to talk about but didn't have the time to during the year...) I would love to have them read up on NGT and this convocation address looks like a great resource!

[Manifestor_of_Light]

48. You're welcome.

And then there is that great picture of Neil deGrasse Tyson, President Obama and Bill Nye together at the White House.

You might want them to read up on Barbara Jordan from my hometown of Houston. She should have been a Supreme Court Justice.


There's another black astrophysicist I've seen on NOVA on PBS but don't remember his name.

[Number23]

52. Thank you so much for posting this

And I wish I could say that this kind of thing doesn't happen any more, only happens in the South, only happens when dealing with Republicans/Conservatives but that would simply be 100% untrue.

It happens every single day from every single type of person.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

54. Yeah. We all catch hell from people.

No matter what your color, gender, social class, or education, somebody will hate you for that.

Since DigitalPuppy teaches physics, I think he (and the rest of the people in this thread) will enjoy this story. Because it was a horrible attempted put-down and I WON.

I am a white female. I have 3 college degrees. An associate's in vocational school, a separate bachelor's and a doctorate.

When I was 19 years old, I had a summer temp secretarial job for a few days at the defense contractor across the street from NASA Mission Control in Houston. I had completed two years of college.

I had a boss who decided he was going to prove his superiority by showing me that I did not know jack shit about physics, because domineering white males know all little college girl secretaries are idiots. This was in the mid-1970s. Carl Sagan had been on Johnny Carson a lot but hadn't written books yet and wasn't quite as famous as he got after the COSMOS series.

So this jerk comes up to me and says:

He said: "Richard Feynman. I'm SURE you don't know who he is."

Me: "He wrote the Feynman lectures on Physics."

He: "Carl Sagan. I'm SURE you don't know who he is."

Me: "He teaches astrophysics at Cornell."

Well, at that, the domineering bastard gave up. I didn't tell him how I knew that. I was not a physics major. I was a biology major, but I had smart boyfriends who majored in physics, math, engineering and things like that, so I knew who those guys were. I didn't know what was in the Feynman Lectures, but knew it had a red cover and that it was probably the holy scriptures of physics. I'd seen Carl Sagan on the Tonight Show.

I did not tell him I was hanging out with guys who referred to Victor Weisskopf as "Vicki". And going with a guy who got a full grad school scholarship from MIT in Computer Science/AI, working under the famous Marvin Minsky.

The boyfriend said he changed his major from physics to math because it was easier.




That's the most blatant display of sexism and attempted domination by proving that I'm stupid that I have ever experienced in my life.

[yeoman6987]

55. I liked it better when we never heard from the justices at all

Now every other week one of them is in the press saying something. I thought discussing cases were to get all information facts among themselves and then decide.