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Joe Chi Minh

(15,229 posts)
Thu Aug 27, 2015, 11:29 AM Aug 2015

A wonderful, moving story of the powerful witness to Christianity afforded by a pivotal encounter

with an elderly African American woman, for a young Mormon missionary. I think he tells the story rather beautifully. Here is the operative excerpt and the link to the full article:

'It's impossible to communicate all the mounting evidence and experiences that led me to abandon the faith of my fathers, but let me relate a few examples: One day, while knocking on doors in a very poor area of Alabama, my companion and I came upon a sagging shack badly in need of repairs. We knocked on the door and were greeted by the bright eyes of an older African-American woman in her 70s or 80s. We told her we had a message about Jesus that we would like to share with her. As someone who loved Christ, she welcomed us into her humble home. As was our practice, we asked if she would like us to begin with prayer or if she may like to pray. As you can imagine, 99% of the time, people would agree to let us offer that prayer. This time it was different. She quietly bowed her head and began to pray.

I remember distinctly, as I heard her praying to God, thinking that if I looked up I would see Him sitting next to her on her worn couch. This was not just her God, but her best friend, her dearest companion who had seen her through a lifetime of suffering and prejudice. As her intimate conversation continued, I grew afraid, because I knew when she finished, I was expected to share with her a message about Jesus, but I knew that she really "knew" him, while I maybe only knew about him. I wanted that kind of intimacy she shared with her Creator, but for me God was distant and demanding.'

http://www.aleteia.org/en/religion/aggregated-content/a-mormons-journey-to-the-catholic-church-5792573591388160

I wonder how many old African American women there have been like that old lady. Not to speak of the old men, who I believe tend not to be as spiritual, as women, like the angels for better or worse, in the sense of being psychically tuned into the supernatural. I remember reading an excerpt on here from a book by an AA lady who told of the veneration and awe in which subsequent generations held their parents grandparents, great grandparents, who had been slaves. Also, that those older generations of AA's would talk constantly with the ghosts of their own family and ancestors evidently visiting them, whom they could see, though I believe perhaps not anyone else.

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A wonderful, moving story of the powerful witness to Christianity afforded by a pivotal encounter (Original Post) Joe Chi Minh Aug 2015 OP
Someone here posted a video of Hillary addressing the church in Charleston pnwmom Aug 2015 #1
Yes, the political/religious dichotomy could scarcely be more sad. Joe Chi Minh Aug 2015 #2
How wicked do you believe abortion is? Warren Stupidity Aug 2015 #3
Well, I have had good reason to trust the wisdom of the RC Church, my church, Joe Chi Minh Sep 2015 #6
"a kind of 'act of war' by the mother on her own" Warren Stupidity Sep 2015 #13
Very clear. qwlauren35 Sep 2015 #14
Pro-tip: If ever you wonder why Atheists have a generally negative opinion of Christians... Act_of_Reparation Sep 2015 #4
Me personally... qwlauren35 Sep 2015 #5
Post removed Post removed Sep 2015 #7
Never have wondered that. Agnostics can have greater integrity Joe Chi Minh Sep 2015 #8
Of course you haven't. Act_of_Reparation Sep 2015 #10
Saw the hidden post. qwlauren35 Sep 2015 #11
What you and the other poster don't seem to realise is that Christian faith Joe Chi Minh Sep 2015 #9
What absolute drivel. mr blur Sep 2015 #15
I should add. qwlauren35 Sep 2015 #12

pnwmom

(108,978 posts)
1. Someone here posted a video of Hillary addressing the church in Charleston
Mon Aug 31, 2015, 04:08 AM
Aug 2015

after the shootings.

Listening to her speak I suddenly understood why Hillary has such strong support in the African American community, particularly among the women.

Hillary sounded like one of the liberal nuns I had at my Catholic high school. Totally at ease using religious language to express her progressive beliefs. Skeptics here think any smart person with religious beliefs is a phony -- but Hillary comes across as very sincere. Just like one of my nuns.

I don't know how Bernie will deal with that, since he's made it clear that he doesn't have any religious point of view. But I know many of his strong supporters on DU are people who frequently denigrate Christianity. That won't help them get support from Christians -- and African Americans are the most Christian, and the most religious, group in the Democratic party.

Joe Chi Minh

(15,229 posts)
2. Yes, the political/religious dichotomy could scarcely be more sad.
Mon Aug 31, 2015, 07:33 AM
Aug 2015

Such a basic Christian requirement as observance of its social policy is only adhered to by the left (rather more sparingly in the US than in Europe, at least in terms of its effects), and with few exceptions, that only until such time as the socialist firebrands get their feet a few rings up the ladder, then they want to become gentleman farmers (in the UK, don't know the US equivalent). A bitter pill to swallo, in that the atheists have through the degeneracy of the monied Christians, been allowed to cloak themselves in Christian charity in terms of opposing the structural causes of poverty - while disowning its Divine Author.

It was not for nothing that, after referencing the First Commandment, Jesus immediately added that the Second was its like. He knew how we would 'monkey' with his words and teachings to suit our tastes. He had the Synagogue of his day as a sure template for his Church... and they didn't let him down - to put it extremely elliptically!!!!

I wouldn't know how to vote any longer in the UK, never mind the US, since the Labour Party gets ever more flakey and uninterested in labour, the very thing it was named after. I could scarcely begin to describe how wicked I believe abortion is, though I sympathise with some of its maternal victims, who would be as much victims of a host of ills that led to it.

In the UK, I believe the Tory party has become much more godless since Thatcher misrule, in terms of abortion and sexual libertarianism, but anti-abortion by the Republicans just seems to be a Christian front for a thoroughly Mammom and Moloch-obsessed catchment of ultra venal and materialistic Americans.

Hillary, I believe is in the pocket of the corporations, but Bill did a power of good for the country's economy, and he and Hillary have always seemed friends of the African Americans.

Joe Chi Minh

(15,229 posts)
6. Well, I have had good reason to trust the wisdom of the RC Church, my church,
Tue Sep 1, 2015, 01:08 PM
Sep 2015

in matters in which I would not have wished to decide, and in which the well-being of two people is at stake, but which might not be possible to resolve without pain of some sort to one of the parties. The parties of a mother and child, their mutual relationship, in the Christian tradition is very special. Since the earliest times, abortion and deliberate, neglectful exposure of a post-natal child to kill it have been absolutely proscribed.

There are times when I have wondered about, say, nuns being raped and the effects on them, the nightmarish questions it would raise for nuns concerned, should they conceive, when abortifacients might be used, to kill the first beginnings of the physical baby, when presumably no more than a cell or two, or perhaps several - endeavouring to make the best of a bad job, so to speak. However, I've learnt by experience to trust the church's decisions in difficult, spiritual matters, and the church - and I've read recently, scientists - believe life begins at conception. Sometimes grey areas do occur, and then you have to do what your conscience says you must in the circumstances and put your trust more the ever in God's mercy. Even the Apostles had to do their best, but then rely totally on God's mercy, because we're all a bad lot. We've inherited a virus called 'original sin'.

If in the case of those nuns, the Church aid that a nun or perhaps other such women, who took an abortificacient asap after the rape, that it would not lead to their being denied absolution - if that's possible - then that might make sense to this admittedly imperfectly-sighted soul.

Maybe because he knows what backsliders we are, Jesus tended to speak and proscribe in absolutes. I don't think he meant us to pluck our eyes out to make 'custody of the eyes' easier, although strictly speaking he was telling the truth. Better to be blind over a human life-span than to find your consistent choices have amounted to your choosing hell over heaven. So it would be dangerous for me to believe, still less, say, because the zygote is so inchoate, I don't think God will see a moral equivalence.

As regards abortions of formed or partly-formed babies, however, I don't believe there is any question as to its wickedness. And while I can't imagine that sucking, hoovering an embryo or small baby from the womb would have been less than horrific, a kind of 'act of war' by the mother on her own, unknown and innocent child. Wars are blunt instruments, but, given our fallen nature, generally, especially of the most powerful and worldly, they have been unavoidable. Abortions are not. If my wife and I had had a child, and it had been seriously deformed, I can't think of a more horrifying sight - having recently seen at a nuclear accident website, photos of babies deformed by radiation, before I realised and got out of the screen as quickly as I could - turning my eyes away. It wasn't the children of course, but the potential suffering those extremely hideous deformities constituted or would have for them, had they survived. I didn't study if they were aborted or what.

Nevertheless, I remember a young Irish couple on TV with recently born babies with the somewhat less horrendous Siamese twins with conjoined heads. Those parents were, on the face of it, just an ordinary Joe and Jane, but nobody is course, truly ordinary, least of all, those the world considers 'ordinary'. Quiet and humble in their demeanour, they took it all in their stride and were very loving to their two afflicted but happy-seeming children.

However, this live dismemberment of partly-formed and fully-formed babies is quite 'off the dial' for me in its wickedness. As a German 'tankie' said in a cable documentary on the Eastern Front of WWII, there were not many things they were scared of, but falling into the hands of the Russian partisans absolutely terrified them. The reason is very briefly mentioned, skimmed over, really. in a YouTube video, dismembered bodies of such unfortunate German soldiers were found by the side of the roads. However, an elderly German told me that they chopped their arms and legs off and laid the torso in the middle of the road, as a warning. Now, translate that to a mother and her child, as Wordsworth put it: still 'trailing clouds of glory', while that child is at its most vulnerable and needing its mother's love - bearing in mind, mothers often give their own lives to save a child of theirs.

One of the things I have learnt is that those in our church, Francis calls the Pharisees and Pelagians, think that everything is neatly laid out in the catechism and canon law. It has been my experience however that the more seriously you take your faith and develop your interior life of prayer, the more difficult the and perplexing will be the choices you will, on occasions, face: what to do for the best to avoid a greater sin or ill? However, the abortion of a mother's child does not present such a dilemma, with adoption agencies, orphanages and help available from Catholic church organisations. It is one of the great no-nos. And, as I say, I take it on trust that it holds from the moment of conception.

I pray with especial love for women who I knew had had an abortion while they were alive; an 'especial love', because they were very lovable people, and I know never ceased to regret their action on that fateful day. Our prayers are very precious to the souls in purgatory.

 

Warren Stupidity

(48,181 posts)
13. "a kind of 'act of war' by the mother on her own"
Tue Sep 1, 2015, 03:50 PM
Sep 2015

that is truly horrific. Certainly jail should be the appropriate punishment for these women if you feel this way. And certainly the health care providers participating in these acts of war should be punished as well, right?

qwlauren35

(6,148 posts)
14. Very clear.
Tue Sep 1, 2015, 04:59 PM
Sep 2015

You have laid out your beliefs very clearly. I can only hope that, despite your clear beliefs, you will not infringe upon others to practice the rights established by this nation as theirs.

I have had two abortions. You are welcome to pray for me, or think that I will go to hell. However, I will go to my grave believing that I did the right thing, both times, and that I was exercising a right granted to my by the Supreme Court, as to what I did or did not want inside of my body. I did not want anything growing inside of my body. I got rid of it. Perhaps it seems extreme to think of an embryo or fetus as cancerous cells. But frankly, that's what it boils down to. When a woman finds herself with a growth inside of her that she thinks is a problem, it is her right to get rid of it. And I do not ever want that right taken away, because I truly believe that it's nobody's business but hers.

You can go around telling people you have a benign tumor, but is it really anyone's business if you have it removed? NO. It's not going to kill you. It may not hurt you. But it is your right to have it removed.

That is why I agree with Ben Carson's statement that it's a war about what's inside our bodies. Yes it is. As far as I'm concerned, it's none of your business. You seem to think it is your business, because if I choose to let it come to term, then it will become an independent entity, a person.

I used to hope that RU-486 would end this madness. We could get it, go home, abort, and be done with it. I am so angry that ANYONE tries to tell me what I must tolerate in my body if I don't choose to. I know it's an embryo. It could be a person if I CHOOSE to bring it to term. But dammit, I want it to be MY choice. And no one elses.

And I am tired, tired, tired, of people interfering with a woman's RIGHT to get an abortion. Forget "right to choose"; if the choice has been made, and she chooses abortion, get over it and get out of the way.

Act_of_Reparation

(9,116 posts)
4. Pro-tip: If ever you wonder why Atheists have a generally negative opinion of Christians...
Tue Sep 1, 2015, 09:01 AM
Sep 2015

...even liberal ones, it's because of shit like this:

A bitter pill to swallo, in that the atheists have through the degeneracy of the monied Christians, been allowed to cloak themselves in Christian charity in terms of opposing the structural causes of poverty - while disowning its Divine Author.

qwlauren35

(6,148 posts)
5. Me personally...
Tue Sep 1, 2015, 10:20 AM
Sep 2015

Since I was 12, I have had a negative view of people who call themselves Christians, but are filled with hypocrisy and don't care, because they go to confession, or pray and "God forgives them". HOWEVER, I have also met some Christians whom I completely respect and find myself in awe of, because they exemplify people who are determined to be Christ-like. So, since I know some of these people, I try to be judgmental about people, instead of the religion. I fail frequently, but I try.

I also think Jesus was pretty awesome in his views on how we should treat people. If he called on God to justify it, I accept that, although it seems sad that you have to justify what is right with a deity.

So. When I see Christians bash atheists and atheists bash Christians, I am annoyed unless each admits that they have met some of the other who are worthy of being called selfless and loving.

To me, the bottom line is that these are two groups that will probably NEVER understand each other, much like extreme pro-life and pro-choice people. But we live in the same country, so we should do what we can to get along.

Response to qwlauren35 (Reply #5)

Joe Chi Minh

(15,229 posts)
8. Never have wondered that. Agnostics can have greater integrity
Tue Sep 1, 2015, 01:58 PM
Sep 2015

than many luke-warm Christians, but truculent atheism - which it generally tends to be - just seems the height of foolishness.

qwlauren35

(6,148 posts)
11. Saw the hidden post.
Tue Sep 1, 2015, 03:21 PM
Sep 2015

Didn't see why it was hidden but at any rate... I have absolutely no interest in being Christian. I think it's wonderful to meet nice people of any religion. Including Christians. By your logic, if I meet enough nice Muslims, I would become a Muslim, if I meet enough nice Buddhists, I would become Buddhist (I did for a while), etc.

What about you? If you met enough nice atheists, would you become atheist? If you met enough nice Muslims, would you become Muslim? If you met enough nice Jews, would you become Jewish?

Somehow I don't think so. There is what is within and what is without. In my thoughts, feelings, etc., I am simply not a believer. I'd like to believe that if you are Christian, it is because of what is inside of you, not the people you have encountered. In my view, to be Christian because you are surrounded by Christians, in America, is to have limited your viewpoint. There are so many other religious options. To me, all religions are both valid and flawed. No religion is perfect. But because people often find comfort in them, I respect what they do for people.

But I stand on the outside. I'm an agnostic. I neither believe nor disbelieve. I do not know if there is a God, I also don't care. I feel that to respect others and treat them with the highest regard is sufficient. So I respect you, I respect your choice to be Christian, and I wish you the best.

Joe Chi Minh

(15,229 posts)
9. What you and the other poster don't seem to realise is that Christian faith
Tue Sep 1, 2015, 02:04 PM
Sep 2015

is more about 'commitment' in the face of adversity than about 'credence' - still less credulity. 'The devils believe and tremble.'

 

mr blur

(7,753 posts)
15. What absolute drivel.
Tue Sep 1, 2015, 05:23 PM
Sep 2015

Added to your nonsense further up about atheists it just proves that there is no-one more ridiculous than a pompous Catholic pontificating on things about which they are woefully - and usually wilfully - ignorant.

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