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hbskifreak

(57 posts)
Thu Jan 3, 2013, 05:20 AM Jan 2013

Bill of Rights

The Bill of Rights was written in a certain sequence for a reason. The First Amendment:

"Congress cannot make a law that favors the establishment of one particular religion; that prohibits the free exercise of religion; or that restricts freedom of speech or of the press, or the right of the people to gather and engage in peaceful demonstrations and to petition the government for redress of their grievances."

This is our most important amendment, yet America's Right doesn't seem to give a shit about it, nor of any other amendment, except number 2. Where was their anger when the police were pepper-spraying peaceful protesters during the UC Davis Occupy Movement? Was it because the protesters were hippie, communists who all clearly hate America? Love it or leave it, right...isn't that what they always say?

Where was their outrage when the patriot act (I refuse to capitalize those words) was gutting our fourth, fifth, sixth, and eighth amendments? Men in Black can now whisk any one of us away in a C-130 down to Git-mo and water-board our asses everyday, FOREVER, to death, just because THEY CAN. Our Glorious, Liberal, God-King-who-can-do-no-wrong Obama, can target a drone and assassinate you instead of arrest you. Yeah, America's Right is okay with our gov't blasting them with Tomahawks, as long as they can keep their AR-15s. It's bullshit.

"Because a well-regulated militia is necessary to national security, the right of the people to keep and bear arms may not be infringed."

It's not my opinion, it is clearly a fact that if high-capacity magazines and assault weapons were federally banned from public ownership, but all pistols, shotguns, and hunting rifles were not affected by said ban, the 2nd Amendment would thus remain intact, and anyone challenging that just plain doesn't know how to read. The ban would not take away ALL arms, only certain ones. The Right would have us believe that the sky is the limit when it comes to what kind of weapons they can own...wmds, javelin missiles, fully armed F-18s, all because the 2nd Amendment doesn't place a limit.

As Americans, we were all taught in High School Civics classes about the Bill of Rights and about how difficult it is to change a Constitutional Amendment. This is why in the 222 years since the Bill of Rights was ratified in 1791, we have only added 17 more amendments to it. The Constitution is our living, breathing, blood-red soul and it is NOT perfect, but it is more perfect than anything else on our planet...for the last 237 years and counting.

If someone feels threatened over possibly losing ownership of their AK-47, but doesn't give a crap about someone else's right to peaceably assemble being trampled on by the Police, then I say that person isn't patriotic at all. And here is where I invite them to eat their own words; Love it or leave it, and learn how to count...1 comes before 2, and without 1, there can be no 2, nor can there be anything else.



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Bill of Rights (Original Post) hbskifreak Jan 2013 OP
If this is what passes for reasonable, it's little wonder we'll never find common ground. loknar Jan 2013 #1
Military-Style semiautomatic rifles must account for less than 3% of all gun homicides. OneTenthofOnePercent Jan 2013 #2
Military-Style semiautomatic rifles with 30+ round magazines must account for less than .00001 % safeinOhio Jan 2013 #3
Since one need not actually shoot someone to have a succesful defense.... PavePusher Jan 2013 #5
AR15 best selling assault rifle in US jimmy the one Jan 2013 #4
7X more murders were committed with .22 caliber squirrel rifles than with AR15's. loknar Jan 2013 #6
Talk about logic fail. Clames Jan 2013 #7
Recycle it all you want. AtheistCrusader Jan 2013 #9
But what percent of _mass shootings_ do they account for? Gidney N Cloyd Jan 2013 #13
Mass shootings are a statistical outlier/anomaly. OneTenthofOnePercent Jan 2013 #16
If we recommend citizens demonstrate with their AR/AK's on their backs what feedback do we get? ileus Jan 2013 #8
Help me out here... hbskifreak Jan 2013 #10
The purpose of the AWB is to heat the water just a little bit. GreenStormCloud Jan 2013 #11
You've just about nailed 'the slippery slope' talking point the NRA always makes jmg257 Jan 2013 #12
That "talking point" was given great credence by Chas. Krauthammer when Eleanors38 Jan 2013 #17
Gun lobby weird logic jimmy the one Jan 2013 #14
camel's nose in your tent, comin' to getyer guns jimmy the one Jan 2013 #15
 

OneTenthofOnePercent

(6,268 posts)
2. Military-Style semiautomatic rifles must account for less than 3% of all gun homicides.
Thu Jan 3, 2013, 07:39 AM
Jan 2013

According to FBI/DOJ statistics, ALL rifles accounted for something like 3% of gun deaths each of the past few years - of which, these scary Military-Style rifles are only a fraction. It's a pretty steady makeup of gun deaths each year. In the realm of gun homicide, these AR15s and AK47s are not even close to being the problem with America's Gun Nuttery. They just look scary and the bedwetters want to ban them because it's easy to gin up support when banning a scary item.

I don't support you ban on the grounds that it is illogical. Spend your time trying to ban something more worthwhile.

safeinOhio

(32,713 posts)
3. Military-Style semiautomatic rifles with 30+ round magazines must account for less than .00001 %
Thu Jan 3, 2013, 08:33 AM
Jan 2013

of all self-defense shootings.

Most crime shootings do involve handguns, so registering them may be a good idea. The only people that would be affected would be those prohibited from owning a gun.

 

PavePusher

(15,374 posts)
5. Since one need not actually shoot someone to have a succesful defense....
Thu Jan 3, 2013, 09:42 AM
Jan 2013

(and that result is the vast minority of defensive gun uses), your premise is unsound.

jimmy the one

(2,708 posts)
4. AR15 best selling assault rifle in US
Thu Jan 3, 2013, 09:23 AM
Jan 2013

onetenth: ALL rifles accounted for something like 3% of gun deaths each of the past few years - of which, these scary Military-Style rifles are only a fraction.. In the realm of gun homicide, these AR15s and AK47s are not even close to being the problem with America's Gun Nuttery

Maybe not AK47s & AK74s, but the AR15 is a problem, a growing problem, and I believe is the fastest, or 'best' selling rifle these days, for gunnuts near & far (lindsey graham is a proud owner, ah bless).

(reposted): the {AR15} assault rifle is responsible for a higher proportion of yearly murders than it's percentage of total rifles.
As per below table, AR15 at 3% would be responsible for 13 of the 436 rifle murders for 2006 (table below). Already at the connecticut shooting there were 26 AR15 murders, & two more the firemen recently, & maybe a dozen or more last year scattered elsewhere, for a HIGHER PROPORTION of rifle-murder from the AR15.
IOW, the AR15 comprises perhaps 3 to 5% (with growth due 'best seller') of riflestock, yet is responsible for perhaps 10 - 15% of yearly rifle murders, in part due the hi-cap clip.

2006 data: http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2006/data/table_20.html
Total murders......14,990.....100.00%
Handguns............7,795.. ...52.00%
Other weapons (.....2,158......14.40%
Edged weapons.......1,822......12.15%
Firearms(type unk)..1,465.......9.77%
Hands,fists,feet......833.......5.56%
Shotguns..............481.. ....3.21%
Rifles................436.. ....2.91%
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/ycgii/2000/generalfindings

Long Gun Type and Caliber - All Ages
Shotgun 12 GA..35.5%
Rifle .22......21.1% Rifle 7.62mm....9.0%
Shotgun 20GA....6.6% --.410GA 3.2%-- 16 GA...2.1%
Rifle .30-30....3.2%
Rifle .223......3.1% <<<<<<<<<<< AR15
Rifle 9mm.......2.1% Rifle .30-06....2.1%
TopTenLongGuns..88.0% All Long Guns..100.0%

 

loknar

(33 posts)
6. 7X more murders were committed with .22 caliber squirrel rifles than with AR15's.
Thu Jan 3, 2013, 10:39 AM
Jan 2013

For that matter, Twice as many people were murdered with a 20 gauge shotgun-that's suitable for rabbits and pheasants. The AR15 accounted for less than roughly 2% of all firearms homicides in America. Only 13.5 people died by a .223 rifle in 2006. How is that the most pressing problem when you consider that 7,795 people were murdered with a handgun? 500 people were murdered in Chicago, the vast majority of which were gang related. Is that not a more pressing national problem?

 

Clames

(2,038 posts)
7. Talk about logic fail.
Thu Jan 3, 2013, 10:44 AM
Jan 2013

12ga shotgun kills 10 times as many and yet you rant about the AR rifle? Even .30-30 kills more and that caliber is chiefly found in lever action rifles.

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
9. Recycle it all you want.
Thu Jan 3, 2013, 12:45 PM
Jan 2013

That 3.1% does not represent AR-15's. It represents AR's, M4's, Mini-14's, and a whole host of semi-auto and bolt action rifles chambered in .223/NATO 5.56mm

 

OneTenthofOnePercent

(6,268 posts)
16. Mass shootings are a statistical outlier/anomaly.
Fri Jan 4, 2013, 04:08 PM
Jan 2013

Expending great deals of political capital to ban an item that accounts for less than a few percent of total gun-homicides in order to alleviate an extremely rare event (mass shootings) that accounts for an equally small fraction of total murders is not sound logic.

Also, CT has had an AWB since 1993. The "bushmaster" rifle used was catgorically NOT an assault rifle. It was legal during the OLD ban and it's legal under the current CT ban. Several other mass shootings have been successfully committed without assault rifles. Clearly a readily available substitute exists. How can eliminate mass shooting by banning Assault style rifles when they are evidently not the cause?

ileus

(15,396 posts)
8. If we recommend citizens demonstrate with their AR/AK's on their backs what feedback do we get?
Thu Jan 3, 2013, 11:08 AM
Jan 2013

Remember it's not about gun control, it's only about CONTROL.

We need to file 13 the shitriot act, but no one in government will ever give up that control. It's their power now...the greater good and all that crap.

hbskifreak

(57 posts)
10. Help me out here...
Fri Jan 4, 2013, 05:25 AM
Jan 2013

I admit that I am kind of ignorant to the stats of what weapons are generally involved in what crimes, although I suppose I could have Googled that if I had thought about it. I don't really hear a lot of hullabuloo from anyone about regulating pistols. Nothing about legislation from the left, and nothing from the right about them being worried about it. But the right sure does get their panties in a twist when someone brings up assault weapons.

So...what am I missing here? Is it that the assault weapons "fight" is really a red herring and we need to go after handguns in full force? If the stats that were previously brought up here are true, then why would anyone give a crap about AK-47s and AR-15s when it's the Glocks that are doing all the killing?

If we, as concerned citizens wish to end gun violence, I might think that the fight is going to be long and slow. However I would bet that getting assault weapons banned is an attainable goal in the immediate future, way more attainable than a handgun ban. Once the assault weapon battle is won, semi-automatic pistols could be the next goal, and so on. Guns are always going to be in private hands...law abiding and criminal, so obviously we should carefully consider which weapons should be removed from the picture and which ones we can "live" with, pardon the pun.

So please, someone help me out by defining a realistic path that can lead us to a safer future, that can be done incrementally in a way that can be accepted by a winning majority, since something like this would more than likely involve some kind of vote by someone.

GreenStormCloud

(12,072 posts)
11. The purpose of the AWB is to heat the water just a little bit.
Fri Jan 4, 2013, 08:31 AM
Jan 2013

The idea is to get the American public accustomed to some guns being banned, then expand the list of banned weapons until it is a complete gun ban. Those of us who support the RKBA fight the AWB because we realize that we must hold the line against any loss of freedom.

jmg257

(11,996 posts)
12. You've just about nailed 'the slippery slope' talking point the NRA always makes
Fri Jan 4, 2013, 09:22 AM
Jan 2013

against gun control...every "common sense" control leads inevitably to ones that aren't so "reasonable" (to them).

Tough call, as each and every step along the way would be fought tooth and nail.

IF we the people are serious about control (and not sure enough are, or enough politicans have the balls to do so), it would take some drastic measures to get done...just as well try to do it all at once.

I always contemplate that IF I was tasked with such controls, and IF the goal is to seriously reduce gun violence by controlling guns, that the only hope would be to ban and confiscate - to level the playing field, to help alleviate the fears of gun owners being out gunned, by removing most repeating type arms and/or drastically limiting their capacity...and not just for the people, but most LE too. Not something I would be looking forward to.


Or we could just severely crack down on gangs and drug related activities, and repeat offenders, and watch as many as 2/3 or more of the gun-related deaths disappear, and about 80% or more in places like Chicago.

 

Eleanors38

(18,318 posts)
17. That "talking point" was given great credence by Chas. Krauthammer when
Fri Jan 4, 2013, 08:41 PM
Jan 2013

a few yrs ago he said the AWB wasn't about reducing crime, but about conditioning the public to the notion of bans until there was complete prohibition. He is pretty far-right. And a gun-banner. NRA member? I don't know -- Ah! I know, a paid troll!

jimmy the one

(2,708 posts)
14. Gun lobby weird logic
Fri Jan 4, 2013, 09:54 AM
Jan 2013

clames: 12ga shotgun kills 10 times as many and yet you rant about the AR rifle? Even .30-30 kills more and that caliber is chiefly found in lever action rifles.

loknar: 7X more murders were committed with .22 caliber squirrel rifles than with AR15's.
Twice as many people were murdered with a 20 gauge shotgun-that's suitable for rabbits and pheasants.


Your 2nd Amendment Mythology doesn't hold water in the real world. There are roughly 80 million shotguns in america, maybe 2 or 3 million(?) AR15s, so of course there will be more murders done by shotguns; rifles as well fit this relationship.
You use figures which represent aggregate killings over a long period of time (year), the AR15 w hi-cap clip is becoming a choice for more killing power in a short period of time (minutes, hours), pretty much the rationale for assault rifles.

UK guardian: data shows just over 2m rifles produced for domestic use by these manufacturers from 2000 to 2010 .
..(nra,kopel): nearly a half million AR15-type rifles were manufactured(US) 2009.

.. ncjrsdotgov, albeit dated 1994: .. estimate for the total number of privately owned firearms is 192 million: 65 million handguns, 70 million rifles, 49 million shotguns, and 8 million other long guns(muskets etc). Of the handguns, 48% were revolvers, 40%semiauto, and 12% (other).. https://www.ncjrs.gov/txtfiles/165476.txt

The AR15 accounted for less than roughly 2% of all firearms homicides in America. Only 13.5 people died by a .223 rifle in 2006. How is that the most pressing problem when you consider that 7,795 people were murdered with a handgun?

It's become a weapon of choice for mass shootings, quick kill high kill. Your rationale that this statistic should allow for hi-cap clips & AR15 is, as usual, specious. The proper rationale is the same as for disallowing machine guns.
Imagine a car which was inordinately unsafe, as the corvair (naders 'unsafe at any speed') resulting in inordinately higher accidents & injury, it would be disallowed as the facts came in. Tractor trailers are exempt, in a sense, since they are needed & actually accomplish something useful to offset their higher risk of 'greater' accidents, but the AR15 w clip has NOTHING useful in civilian life to offset it's higher danger zone.

500 people were murdered in Chicago, the vast majority of which were gang related. Is that not a more pressing national problem?

Uh, you do know that the handgun ban in chicago was ruled unconstitutional in 2012 mcdonald case, don't you? Reintroduce handguns into chicago & murder goes up, quelle surprise.


jimmy the one

(2,708 posts)
15. camel's nose in your tent, comin' to getyer guns
Fri Jan 4, 2013, 10:06 AM
Jan 2013
The idea is to get the American public accustomed to some guns being banned, then expand the list of banned weapons until it is a complete gun ban. Those of us who support the RKBA fight the AWB because we realize that we must hold the line against any loss of freedom.

Oh barf, nra propaganda, you a wayne laconman fan?
.. gun lobby's been saying this for past 30 years, with each democratic candidate running for president, or congress, or state legislature. If clinton gets elected you can kiss your gun rights goodbye you'll be left defenseless in your home at the mercy of killers & rapists! Gun confiscation, jack booted thugs kicking your doors down to get your guns!

.. same thing with al gore, then with john kerry, then with obama, fearmongering appealing to gullible people who fall for that cock & bull hook line & sinker, even republican hwbush couldn't take it & resigned nra.
.. The nra is interested in making money so it can propagate & continue to spew it's garbage ad infinauseum, and how else can it do so without fabricating fear year after year onto democrats & batf?
.. clinton banned certain 'assault rifles' which comprised about 2% of national gunstock, & awban had support of large majority of americans. This '2% ban' left 98% of american firearms legal to satiate the mythological RKBA & 2ndA. Lapierre was wrong, misleading, obviously a BIG FAT LIAR, yet he does it again year after year with each election, & the TRUE PATSIES, are those who fall for his big fat lies.

.. watch out, the camel's nose is in your tent, hillary's nose next....
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