Gun Control & RKBA
Related: About this forumAs a gun owner, these are the steps I support to reduce gun violence
1) I support intrA-state gun sales be run through an FFL. I don't want the seller to get any personal information, that would be run by the FFL at sale. This would be up to individual states to implement. Personally, I would never buy a used gun from anyone.
2) I support 10 round magazines (except for grandfathered weapons that hold more). It won't make a bit of difference, however. Cho at Va Tech used 10 round magazines and reloaded 17 times, but if it makes people feel good without effect, I can't help that.
3) I wholly support a media blackout on any shooters name and background. Many of these people do these despicable acts in an effort to get recognition in death they didn't get in life. Let them know no one will know who they are.
4) I support an AWB since it won't change anything except cosmetic features, especially if it's like the last ban. The functionality will remain the same and those weapons will be for sale, sans the scary bits.
5) Mandatory sentencing for gun crimes. Armed robbery gets X years, murder gets x years. No plea bargaining, no mercy. The prisons are crowded. To make room, let NON-violent pot users placed in jail for holding next to nothing in pot go. This would open up a lot of room.
6) Mandatory training for first time gun buyers for each type of weapon purchased. (Meaning, if you buy a semi-auto .40 pistol, you get training. Buy a rifle, get training, but a revolver, get training). When I bought my weapon, it wasn't required but I paid for it anyway. I was smarter than to just go home. I was taught how it worked, gun safety, concealed carry laws in my state, etc.
Look y'all. There is no way, no how, of getting rid of guns in the U.S. Jumping up and down is good exercise, but jumping up and down for bans and confiscation just won't work. If you want to talk about reducing gun violence, my suggestions above, I believe, are a starting point.
Your input is appreciated. This is a nice, polite opinion. Nice polite responses are REALLY appreciated.
atreides1
(16,093 posts)Though I disagree on grandfathering high capacity magazines...10 rounds should be more then enough for any target shooter or hunter.
You have 6 months to turn in any magazines that hold more then 10 rounds, and if caught you receive a fine and the magazines are confiscated, but you get to keep your weapon and ammunition.
gejohnston
(17,502 posts)magazines. Wyoming and Florida I know do. Not grandfathering them might run into 5A issues.
Kennah
(14,315 posts)_Liann_
(377 posts)It is already illegal for a felon to posses a firearm of any size magazine, any numbers of rounds. Yet the Sniper-Killer (of NY Firemen and his sister) William Spengler had a BUSHMASTER AR-15 same as Adam Lanza who massacred Sandy Hook School, same as the Aurora Colorado Theater Shooter James Holmes, same as the DC Sniper Malvo.
It is already the law that people with mental impairments be barred from owning firearms, but it takes court orders or a hospitalization stay for incapacity to impose the gun ban. David Michael Keene was hospitalized several times as a juvenile, but this son of the current NRA president Michael A. Keene was able to carry a weapon that he discharged at another driver in a road-rage attempted murder. The ten year prison sentence (release last February) include a court order that David Keene Jr be banned from gun possession for life. Who is going to police that order? Every felon, including William Spengler, is barred from guns for life.
Having mental impairments did not stop the son of Mike Huckabee, whom was expelled from summer camp for torture murder of a stray dog (torturing animals as a teen is an indicator of future sociopathy in adult life), from trying to carry a handgun onto a commercial flight.
Modern psychiatry has consensus that there are 4% of the population with the condition they name Anti-Social Personality Disorder, and the general public calls "sociopathy" or just "psychopathy". Four out of one hundred means that an Adam Lanza or William Spengler is living withing 13 houses away from everybody in America.
Somehow we let the crazies multiply like rabbits and here we are today.
Killers don't just use guns. The sociopath Timothy McVeigh used fertilizer and fuel oil to kill 169 people at the Oklahoma City Murrah Federal Building.
WE NEED SOCIOPATH CONTROL, not just "gun control". These crazies likely were the first to stockpile arms in the latest gun buying boom. Many of them are already heavily armed.
Some parts of sociopath control looks like gun control -- removal of M16 look-alike fantasy weapons from civilian hands -- it looks like a war weapon by design, and it is bought by human-hunters because it looks like a gun known for hunting humans.
BUSHMASTER is a preferred weapon for hunting humans by sociopath mass murderers. We all know that. There is no right to sell civilians war weapons or their closest cousins. It was a Stag Arms AR-15 used in the Clackamas Mall two days before Sandy Hook. Put the Bushmaster, Stag Arms, and an army M16 on a table and ask civilians which is which and they couldn't tell you.
Killers want the AR-15 because it feeds the murder lust in them, and we all know that is true.
By the way, the note left by William Spengler, that killing is what he does best -- there ought to be a very intense study of his life to see if he is an unknown serial killer. He hardly had a lot of practice killing with just his grandma, so how did it become what he does best? Missing persons and unsolved gun deaths may be tied to him or his guns.
gejohnston
(17,502 posts)Some parts of sociopath control looks like gun control -- removal of M16 look-alike fantasy weapons from civilian hands -- it looks like a war weapon by design, and it is bought by human-hunters because it looks like a gun known for hunting humans.
BUSHMASTER is a preferred weapon for hunting humans by sociopath mass murderers. We all know that. There is no right to sell civilians war weapons or their closest cousins. It was a Stag Arms AR-15 used in the Clackamas Mall two days before Sandy Hook. Put the Bushmaster, Stag Arms, and an army M16 on a table and ask civilians which is which and they couldn't tell you.
Killers want the AR-15 because it feeds the murder lust in them, and we all know that is true.
By the way, the note left by William Spengler, that killing is what he does best -- there ought to be a very intense study of his life to see if he is an unknown serial killer. He hardly had a lot of practice killing with just his grandma, so how did it become what he does best? Missing persons and unsolved gun deaths may be tied to him or his guns.
Is there a test for sociopaths? Most of the worst damage sociopaths have done to our society hasn't been with a gun, bomb, knife, but with a Monte Blanc pen.
petronius
(26,603 posts)On #3 however, I would oppose any attempt to legislate this blackout - it's far too much of a 1A violation. And I predict a 0% chance that it could ever happen voluntarily.
On #4, there's no reason to assume that a future AWB would be as inept and cosmetically-focused as the original. The only things that really matter are capacity and speed of reloading (Unless the bill goes as far as single-shot only, which I would definitely oppose). You've dealt with capacity in #2 and I imagine that a retooled AWB would address detachable magazines (which is fine with me as long as bullet buttons or similar tools are still allowed). I would hope that all of the "military-style" appearance nonsense is left out of any future legislation.
We have something like #6 here in CA with handguns at least, and I think it's a good idea as long as it doesn't create any sort of significant financial or time-related impediment...
gejohnston
(17,502 posts)1
One thing I would like to add: I would like a study or series of studies to see why only 57 percent of murders were with guns while something like 70 percent are now. Obviously, it isn't laxer gun laws from then. Maybe there is a media influence like smoking and the switchblade hysteria in the 1950s.
Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)that is a good thing so, I can get behind it.
I guess 10 is a good a number as any.
Dang, I think my Ruger holds eleven.
Starboard Tack
(11,181 posts)A true AWB ban would ban all semi-automatics. The argument about full-auto and semi-auto is ridiculous. We all know that the most effective way to kill as many people as possible is not with an M-16 on full-auto select.
Grandfathering in something that you make illegal, totally defeats the purpose. And how would you implement that?
Keeping semi-autos out of the public venue is the only solution I can see, which means being able to track them when outside the owner's perimeter.
I like the mandatory training for ownership. The training necessary for carrying should be extremely rigorous and uniform across the country. All training should be combined with accountability.
I like number 5.
Pullo
(594 posts)but realistically speaking, banning them outright won't happen anytime soon. Most guns sold today are semiautos of some variety. Any type of compulsory buyback or outright confiscation of weapons already in circulation would face ferocious opposition.
Basically, such a push would legitimize the NRA's paranoia, and many more gun owners who aren't currently politically active would join their cause.
Starboard Tack
(11,181 posts)gejohnston
(17,502 posts)or less accountable than anyone else?
Starboard Tack
(11,181 posts)Anyone else what? Those who kill are accountable, but not those who provide the means.
I think I make it clear how to achieve accountability here http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1172&pid=94334
gejohnston
(17,502 posts)illegally, but all means. But jailing victims of theft, like Canada does (or at least tries to since juries nullify if it goes to trial), is total nonsense.
Starboard Tack
(11,181 posts)The victims are those who get killed not those who supplied the guns.
In Sandy Hook, ironically, one of the victims was also the supplier.
gejohnston
(17,502 posts)Neither is, in one Canadian case, a bank vault complete with alarm systems. One was stolen and the other got laughed out of an extradition hearing. That would have been jailing a theft victim. Neither one of them are negligent either. The first went above and beyond legal requirements, the second probably had security as good or better than Toronto's police armory.
Giving potential thieves a map on where to find them may be. Both cases do a better job than LAPD who lost several pistols and submachine guns because their SWAT team thought an abandoned building without an alarm system would make a good armory.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1172&pid=97363
http://www.lohud.com/article/20121223/NEWS04/312230056/The-gun-owner-next-door-What-you-don-t-know-about-the-weapons-in-your-neighborhood
I agree with the guy in the video, that non security is irresponsible. If I left any weapon insecure around kids or prohibited people can have access to it, that would be irresponsible and negligent regardless of the action. Getting a safe ripped of or defeated by professionals is not.
The writer of the article has an NYC pistol permit. I think the TOS forbids giving the make, model, and caliber. At least he is following Ed Schultz's advice and buying American.
Gross negligence is a conscious and voluntary disregard of the need to use reasonable care, which is likely to cause foreseeable grave injury or harm to persons, property, or both. It is conduct that is extreme when compared with ordinary Negligence, which is a mere failure to exercise reasonable care. Ordinary negligence and gross negligence differ in degree of inattention, while both differ from willful and wanton conduct, which is conduct that is reasonably considered to cause injury. This distinction is important, since contributory negligencea lack of care by the plaintiff that combines with the defendant's conduct to cause the plaintiff's injury and completely bar his or her actionis not a defense to willful and wanton conduct but is a defense to gross negligence. In addition, a finding of willful and wanton misconduct usually supports a recovery of Punitive Damages, whereas gross negligence does not.
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Gross+negligence
Starboard Tack
(11,181 posts)If your guns are stolen, you should be held responsible to a degree. The more you own the greater the responsibility to keep them secure. Obviously a 500 pound safe is not always enough, especially when the safe itself is not secured.
Let's face it, if every legal gun were properly secured, there would be very few available to criminals.
hack89
(39,171 posts)Taking a lesson from the anti-choice movement? Making regulations so onerous that owning guns becomes to expensive?
Starboard Tack
(11,181 posts)I am not advocating any bans. I also realize that legit collectors exist. If I were to accumulate a number of weapons, I would make sure that they were not stored in one place. At the very least I would break them down into unusable parts for storage in separate locations.
And please, keep the snark, it doesn't get us anywhere.
hack89
(39,171 posts)that completely guarantee that the guns will not be stolen. But that is what you would require. You want to make gun ownership too expensive for many.
Starboard Tack
(11,181 posts)You don't need a safe either. Just more consumer junk. Dismantle the gun and store the bits in different places. If you own many guns, you are not poor.
People buy guns to protect themselves against the poor. Why would poor people need guns?
hack89
(39,171 posts)I have a constitutional right to have a handgun ready for use in self defense.
The poor prey on the poor. Why do you think violent crime is so geographically limited? Inner city neighborhoods are full of poor people. That is also where most of the killing takes place.
Starboard Tack
(11,181 posts)I'm talking about arsenals/collections, small or large, left in house or pawnshops, unguarded, in useless safes that can be wheeled out.
hack89
(39,171 posts)Starboard Tack
(11,181 posts)gejohnston
(17,502 posts)with any storage and security regulations as any FFL.
Starboard Tack
(11,181 posts)If their security fails, they should be held responsible.
gejohnston
(17,502 posts)the problem with Brady semi SLAPP suits, which as banned, was that they were meritless and winnable. They served only to harass and cost money and was not meant to go to trial. That is why I compare them to SLAPP suits. That is the only reason you don't see them applied to car dealers, bars, etc. Even ambulance chasers have some sense of ethics.
gejohnston
(17,502 posts)people buy guns for a lot of reasons. Poor people do own guns. Mostly the rural poor, who the party needs to reach out to more. Gang members and drug dealers are not poor. Their parents might be, they they are not.
Starboard Tack
(11,181 posts)exboyfil
(17,865 posts)be raped or be attacked for any reason including being the wrong race. Some people like to hurt other people for no reason.
Starboard Tack
(11,181 posts)And as true as what you say may be, those kinds of attacks are few and far between.
rbixby
(1,140 posts)gejohnston
(17,502 posts)but I'm guessing that even if that was done, and the thieves managed to find some of the bolts, for example, you would still hold the gun owner below the law.
Starboard Tack
(11,181 posts)Nobody is above the law. If someone takes reasonable steps to ensure the safe storage of weapons, then they should not be held responsible. But storing many weapons intact, in a portable safe is never responsible. If the guy in question had removed an essential part from each weapon, tossed them in a bag and taken those parts with him, he would've taken reasonable steps. Instead, he left them all intact, in an empty house at Thanksgiving. That, my friend, is beyond dumb.
gejohnston
(17,502 posts)a group of theft victims being below the law.
You seem to be operating under the delusion that any security system is fool proof. There is none. Even if it was bolted to the floor, and the criminals used a blow torch, you would still claim it was not properly secured.
The US case would not be neglect under the law because it was at least and more what the law required. The Canadian case, it would be ruled as unconstitutionally vague in the US. In Canada, safe storage charges are often nullified assuming it makes it to trial.
If you follow the law, you should not be held responsible. Both of those cases were properly secured above and beyond what the law requires. If someone steals your car, and uses it in an armed robbery, the theft victim should be held responsible.
Starboard Tack
(11,181 posts)We're trying to fix a problem here, which is too many stolen/missing firearms. It's time for folk to step up and be responsible. If you can't keep them safe, then don't buy them in the first place. Period.
What is wrong with folk having to be responsible and accountable for their actions, or lack thereof. We see the results of irresponsibility every day.
Guns break down into component parts. Keep those parts separate and they don't function too well. Only keep those you need complete at any one time.
Going on vacation and leaving a gun collection in a safe in an empty house is not smart, sorry.
gejohnston
(17,502 posts)the same theory could be applied if someone wanted to sue someone.
Kennah
(14,315 posts)I agree with you, but I don't know there is anywhere near the will to do it. Some have suggested that the NFA rules for machineguns be applied to semiautos, but I doubt there is the will for that. A middle ground, of semiauto licensing, might be possible.
Training should be among the easier things to pitch, along with regulating all private sales, not just gun show loophole talk.
Kennah
(14,315 posts)spin
(17,493 posts)However I have bought firearms from fellow shooters that I knew well.